From Talk:Ali/Archive1[edit]

Shi'a imam[edit]

Muhammad was not an imam. Ali is considered the first imam. Muhammad should not be in the succession box. Zora 07:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Shi'a belief, Muhammad was also an Imam. Adamcaliph 15:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have to doubt that. Frex, your sect, the twelvers, believes in twelve imams, and the first is Ali, not Muhammad. As I understand it, being a prophet and being an imam are entirely different matters. Zora 01:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The term Ithna Ashariya ("twelvers") is used only to distinguish the sect from other Islamic sects. The "twelver" Shia belief is that God appoints a guide, or hujja ("argument") for every single generation. Shi'ism cites the following Qur'anic verse as a reference:

"...for every generation there is a guide." (Qur'an, 13:7)

Shi'ism cites other verses and hadiths when explaining this belief. Some of these "guides" are appointed as:

1) Prophets - one who receives revelations from God.

2) Messengers - one who receives revelations from God, and has the duty to teach the revelations to humankind.

3) Imams - one who is appointed to lead the believers in every single aspect of life.

Shi'ism teaches that God appointed Abraham with various statuses; in the following order:

1) Servant

2) Prophet

3) Messenger

4) Friend

5) Imam

Shi'ism teaches that Muhammad is God's greatest creation. As such, there is no human greater than him. With regards to his duties, Shi'ism teaches that Muhammad was a Prophet from birth. At the age of 40, Muhammad was given the duty to teach the revelations. This duty meant that he had become a Messenger. Shi'ism teaches that he was also an Imam.

Shi'ism does not teach that there have only ever been twelve Imams. Shi'ism teaches that there have been many Prophets, many Messengers and many Imams. However, since the final stage of God's religion was completed by Muhammad, the only other Imams that are relevant to the practice of religion are the twelve Imams that were appointed after the prophet, Muhammad. This is the "Twelver" Shia belief: that in order to obey God, one must follow 2 sources; (i) the Qur'an, and (ii) the Prophet Muhammad and the 12 Imams. I apologise if I have been reiterating Shi'ism facts that you are already aware of, but I felt that it may explain the beliefs. Adamcaliph 03:15, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It might be giving a negative view; that shia believ that Ali was prophet after muhammad.--Khalid! 16:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Where has it been written that Shia believe that Ali was a prophet? Adamcaliph 17:43, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It doesnt say he was prophet, but some people might be getting the feeling that Shia accept him as a Prophet because of the box:

Preceded by Muhammad	Shia Imam 632–661	Succeeded by Hasan ibn Ali

--Khalid! 09:07, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The box clearly states that the entries refer to Shia Imam. This is sufficient. An encyclopedia should not have to cater for every negligent reader. Adamcaliph 23:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with Zora and Adamcaliph.

Maybe Chapter 3 of the book "Islam in Bible" written by Thomas McElwain can enlighten the matter: http://www.al-islam.org/islaminthebible/

I have read "Islam in the Bible", including Chapter 3. In no way does it contradict, or have the authority to contradict, the fact that Muhammad, in the Shia belief, as well as being a prophet and messenger, was also an imam. Please refer to my text above. It clearly states that, in Shia belief, Ali ibn Abu Talib was not the first imam in the history of humankind. Rather, he was the first imam appointed by God after the final prophet, Muhammad; blessings of God be upon them all. Adamcaliph 17:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]