Talk:Alicia Garza

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Peer Edits[edit]

Untitled[edit]

The information added to the Alicia Garza Wikipedia page is relevant to the topic. Having a section for notable speeches makes it easier for people to trace her growth and popularity as well as sources of some videos and memorable quotes of her speeches. How do you plan on distinguishing which of her speeches/appearances count as notable and worthy of adding to the Wikipedia page? The tone of the writing is neutral and fits the tone of the rest of the page. Is there any details you can add about her work with the Bay Area organizations outlined in the "Other Work" section (i.e. start and end dates, location, type of work)? Sources are decent, can you find any sources other than the YouTube videos that maybe discuss why thosehello speeches are relevant? Great work :) Devinasen (talk) 22:00, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Marxist? Not seeing it[edit]

I have removed a citation to a piece about Garza written by Tiana Smith, a college student who volunteers at BlackPast.org. BlackPast is an online encyclopedia,[1] but not all of its entries are from established historians. The BlackPast piece about Garza said she was Marxist,[2] but it held no supporting quotes or documentation to support that label. Unless there's an explicit quote or analysis from a reliable source, we must remove the label. Binksternet (talk) 14:44, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's pretty clear that she is. Opal Tometi, another co-founder of BLM, has also visited with Nicolás Maduro, and his ruling PSUV party is inspired by Marxism. So while there may not be an explicit quote with her stating such (at least so far), she associates with people that have met with people inspired and guided by Marxism. Although, I agree, it would be helpful to have an explicit statement to absolutely confirm this. 2601:8C:4581:1150:806A:ADEB:FDCE:4186 (talk) 05:56, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps as "She was described by BLM co-founder Patrisse Cullors as a 'trained Marxist'" https://web.archive.org/web/20150724223101/http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=14319. I think this is more than hearsay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.208.116.95 (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you do an Internet search on what groups are spreading this video and information about the subject, they are all on the conservative side and it seems to be part of a campaign to discredit Black Lives Matter. The video in question is from 2015, and doesn't provide any context about what that comment means, or how it relates to BLM as an organization. It could be one of several training sessions in a variety of ideology done by the subject. And just because a leader might believe a certain way, that doesn't mean the movement as a whole is that way. I can't find a more recent source where the supposed "Marxist" training is mentioned. Mdus5678 (talk) 04:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Right, because OANN didn't report on it. Oh, wait silly me. OANN isn't a "credible source" because they don't support the liberal narrative, and bow to the threat of cancel culture.

Does this count? https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:644:8b00:def0:95e7:99bc:56be:62db (talk • contribs)

The New York Post is not very reliable or credible.[3] I would not use that source.

My main problem with any mention of the word Marxism or Marxist in this biography article is that sources will not typically sift through the three meanings of Marxism to determine which one is being used.

Which fuels my second-biggest complaint about the word: folks bringing it here are not trying to represent fairly the thoughts and methods of BLM founders. Instead, they seek to plaster a single label on them in order to discredit them. Such people are assuming the worst of the three possible definitions of Marxism. They will take this definition outside of Wikipedia and shout it as an attack on the character of the BLM founders. One guy who put Marxism into the biography of Patrisse Cullors has very little other activity on Wikipedia, but he changed "white supremacist" to "white identitarian", he sympathetically reworded a white supremacist biography of Mike Cernovich to remove the idea of conspiracy, he removed conspiracy from the biography of hate speech fomenter Gemma O'Doherty, he added one nationalfile.com right-wing batshit crazy source to the biography of black activist Raz Simone, and he removed a mainstream CNN reference from the biography of white supremacist John Michael Posobiec III. So in this light, the addition of 'Marxism' to the biographies of BLM founders can be seen as a continuation of white supremacist activism on Wikipedia.

If we are to bring the word Marxism into a BLM biography, it should be accompanied with so much context from so many sources that it becomes clear to the reader which definition of Marxism is being discussed. Binksternet (talk) 02:59, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a published list of what the Wikipedia gatekeepers consider to be “reliable sources”? Citing “unreliable source” seems to be the default fall back position for any content that does not follow the very left leaning narrative for any article. Anthony Branyan (talk) 16:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure you're seeing what is my main concern: that not enough context is being given by the sources to help the reader know which of three definitions of Marxism is being discussed.

Your assumption about Wikipedia being "left leaning" is a standard talking point of Breitbart. And the scope of that assumption is too big to discuss here on the biography page of one person. Binksternet (talk) 17:36, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Binksternet seems to be more concerned with shielding individuals from any potential criticism than providing accurate informationMelaniasmelons (talk) 14:51, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Marxism is being thrown off the Patrisse Cullors article for the very poor sourcing reasons. Gleeanon409 (talk) 14:23, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Jewish stepfather and an African American mother"[edit]

This pushes the false claim that a person cannot be both African American and Jewish, and ought to be reworded. What was her mother's religion? פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 19:23, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish in this sentence is denoting ethnicity. Subsequently, there are no demoninations where being raised by a Jewish stepfather and gentile mother confers Jewishness, without also undergoing conversion with a sponsoring synagogue. Garza has never attested or demonstrated conversion or even practice of the faith. The activist media sources listing her as such are faulty. Strgydides (talk) 20:46, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Jewish source published this sentence: "For Garza, the personal is political: raised by her African-American mother and Jewish stepfather, she grew up as Alicia Schwartz and identifies as Jewish." It's a biographical page which appears to be written by Jewish Women's Archive staff, based on communication with Garza. Binksternet (talk) 23:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No savvy organization is going question or critique a BLM activist on anything identity-related at present. Even if they are dubious in private. "Identifying as Jewish" is meaningless without ancestry or recognized conversion by a congregation. The same standard would apply were I to claim I'm African American by adoption or alternatively, Muslim without practicing. Strgydides (talk) 22:33, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Let's make this be about what the sources actually say rather than what mental twists we can apply to the printed word. Garza writes a tiny bit about her biological father, her mother, and her stepfather in her new book, The Purpose of Power. She does not identify the race or religion or even the surname of her biological father. Her mother left the father when she was still pregnant, so Garza never lived with him. The stepfather came into her life at age four, and married the mother in 1989 when Garza was eight; the same year her brother was born. Regarding religion, Garza apparently does not discuss whether she practices Jewish customs. I cannot find her celebrating Jewish holidays, for instance, in any printed source. But with a Jewish stepfather in the house from age four, she would be well within her rights to say she identified as Jewish. Binksternet (talk) 23:14, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

From the perspective of every form of Judaism, including Reform, her Jewish stepfather is completely irrelevant to the equation. She's no more Jewish than she would be with no Jewish stepfather. When it comes to "identifying as Jewish" her stepfather is, again, completely irrelevant. The Pope has an equal right to identify as Jewish as she does. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 16:28, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to be violating WP:No original research by drawing from a range of experiences and making your own conclusion. We are not here to analyze the situation and make our own conclusions. Rather, we are here to represent the topic as best we can, based on published sources. We summarize the sources, including the JWA piece. Binksternet (talk) 16:46, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's confusing to me that you yourself would editorialize by saying "with a Jewish stepfather in the house from age four, she would be well within her rights to say she identified as Jewish," which has absolutely no basis other than your personal beliefs, then accuse me of original research when I alluded to the established definitions of Jewishness, which you can find at Mihu Yehudi, well-sourced. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 16:10, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Jewish in this sentence is denoting ethnicity." Yes, but an African-American person who goes through a proper conversion is Jewish, ethnically and religiously. That's why I was somewhat clumsily asking, Is her mom Jewish? Saying she's African-American doesn't inherently imply that she isn't, although there's probably a reason why only her stepfather's Jewishness is ever mentioned. Anyway, the way it's been reworded is better, so no change is needed there, but I wanted to address this, belatedly. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 01:02, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Two Section[edit]

Sections Career and Activism in politics are significantly overlapping as her career essentially is activism. Recommend combining those somehow. Kolma8 (talk) 14:37, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]