Talk:Amelio Robles Ávila/Archive 1

Female crossdresser or transman

I came here by way of this comment. The article only has three sources available online [1] [2] [3]. The first one explicitly refers to Robles as trans, and the other two both mention that Robles demanded that people refer to him as "el coronel" and not "la coronela", which is a pretty clear expression of a male gender identity. -- Irn (talk) 16:06, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

@Joanne1212 and Owen: The sources provided above suggest that Amelio/Amelia was transgender and identified as male. Please get consensus here if you wish to change the pronouns in the article. Thanks. SkyWarrior 04:27, 11 December 2017 (UTC) Courtesy ping for Irn as well. SkyWarrior 13:40, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

If you translate the articles all writen throughout history of this woman, all adjectives and pronouns were female/feminine. Please get a proper spanish translation before you go around and misgender a Butch Lesbian female woman. Her dying wish was to be burried in a dress to ensure her sex would not be misconstrued and a dress to symblize her feminine side Joanne1212 (talk) 04:31, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

It's original research to say that statement is "a pretty clear expression of a male gender identity". One could just as easily counter than her request to be buried in "women's clothes" makes it clear she considered herself a woman. As far as the name, there are more results on Google Books for "Amelia Robles Avila" (265) than for "Amelio Robles Avila" (159). Owen (talk) 04:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Do you have a source for your comment about the dress? The only source I can find, which is repeated on multiple sites, says that Robles asked to be dressed as a woman "para encomendar su alma a Dios",[4] which says more to me about Robles' religious beliefs than gender identity. -- irn (talk) 15:40, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

@Joanne1212 @Owen and @Skywarrior : Amelia’s story should be told exactly how it has been told in Spanish translation. See Cultural Collectiva and bibliotecas biography. Amelia was open about her sexuality as a lesbian (a female homosexual). Considering the historical context, Amelia may have preferred to be called “sir” for other reasons than actually identifying as male, perhaps to present herself as a more authoritative, powerful figure and to be taken seriously. It is wrong to assume that Amelia identified as male with no personal statement declaring this. The word lesbian should not be omitted and erased from this biography. Nor should the label “transgender” be put in its place for that is a biased interpretation with no strong evidence behind it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inbetweenmytoes (talk • contribs) 18:33, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes agreed. There are a number of pragmatic reasons to want to be seen as a male rather than as a lesbian, or as a man rather than a woman, that have nothing to do with transgenderism and all to do with living in a society in which women are treated as less than equal to men. Owen (talk) 22:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you owen! Joanne1212 (talk) 10:15, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 11 December 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED By my count it is 8-5 with SPAs included, 1-5 without them. The arguments for support generally contradicted MOS:GENDERID, talking about what sources use, not his self-designation. In fact, many supporters agreed that he preferred to be called Amelio. Arguments about whether he was trans also miss the point; this is about what name to use in the title and in the article. The article's text can explain the controversy (based on scholarly sources) over what his gender or orientation is. Closing as NOT MOVED, not NO CONSENSUS, as people repeating the same arguments doesn't change the consensus that MOS:GENDERID applies and his self-designation was male. (non-admin closure) Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:45, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

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Amelio Robles Ávila → Amelia Robles Ávila – Procedural nomination; move-warring over what the correct name of the article should be. power~enwiki (π, ν) 06:00, 11 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:38, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Asumió siempre su lesbianismo, lo que la hizo pionera en el reconocimiento de las libertades sexuales; se exhibía como hombre con pantalones olivo, camisa blanca de seda. She was a Lesbian, a female homosexual. Joanne1212 (talk) 07:27, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear that we're dealing with someone who lived in a different time and with a different understanding of gender than we have now, and we're trying to fit this person's life into our framework, which is inherently going to be flawed. Unfortunately, the sources we're dealing with have this same problem, and there's no clear common name or pronoun, with some choosing to interpret Robles as a transman and others as a crossdressing woman. All the sources agree that Robles identified as "Amelio" and "el coronel" (and not "Amelia" and "la coronela") and people respected that and referred to Robles as such - Robles was profiled in a magazine as "Amelio" and received honors from the Mexican government as "Amelio" a "veterano" (not a "veterana").[5][6] Since the sources aren't consistent in their treatment of Robles, it makes sense to go with what is consistent: how Robles identified and how others treated Robles while living: as Amelio, el Coronel. -- irn (talk) 15:37, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Her spanish biography should be interpreted on to wikilepedia with verbatim for historical consistency. Her name was Amelia and all the spanish souces and texts use her name as Amelia and she clearly states AND identified as a LESBIAN Not a transgendered man. It explains why in SPANISH how she was a pioneer for sexual revolution in being an open Lesbian. It is unfair to label someone transgendered when gender is a social construct and everyone’s interpretation vary. She never once said she was trans, she identified as a strong female and used el coronelo for work and for prestige. Its imperative to tell her story without gender bias . The Sex of a Human consists of a biological fixed classification of male and female. Wikipedia should have the EXACT same biography as her spanish one. It is VERY clear. There is too much bias here. Joanne1212 (talk) 15:57, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

A lesbian is a homosexual woman who is romantically or sexually attracted to other women. She clearly identified as a woman, lets tell her story the way it is and not with ideological gender bias and categorize her as something she was not. Joanne1212 (talk) 15:59, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Amelia clearly identified as a woman, and a lesbian, and it is dishonest to portray her as transgendered. Sarah Doane (talk) 20:55, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

“Butch lesbian women are often misrepresented and misunderstood in history and mainstream media. To not include how Amelia identified as a lesbian in her wikipedia biography is not only morally wrong, but historically inconsistent. Sarah Doane (talk) 20:56, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Amelia’s story should be told exactly how it has been told in Spanish translation. See Cultural Collectiva and bibliotecas biography. Amelia was open about her sexuality as a lesbian (a female homosexual). Considering the historical context, Amelia may have preferred to be called “sir” for other reasons than actually identifying as male, perhaps to present herself as a more authoritative, powerful figure and to be taken seriously. It is wrong to assume that Amelia identified as male with no personal statement declaring this. The word "lesbian" should not be omitted and erased from this biography. Nor should the label “transgender” be put in its place for that is a biased interpretation with no strong evidence behind it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inbetweenmytoes (talk • contribs) 10:32, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

• Note Inbetweenmytoes (talk · contribs), Sarah Doane (talk · contribs), and Joanne1212 (talk · contribs) are all newly-registered SPAs. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:14, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

You can add DecolonizeYourMind, Mamaenojada, Carl Boron, and Gaye Chapman to that list. I'm not sure where they're all coming from, but it looks like Tumblr probably had something to do with it. -- irn (talk) 22:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

I didn’t follow any Tumblr, you can add me to your lists though. I’m a Latinx Scholar, I have not seen any definitive concensus from Mexican Scholars in my research regarding Robles Gender Identity. Publicy stated Lesbian as Sexual Orientation and a use of Male Prounouns are anecdotal facts, yes. Yet, where are scholarly texts cited? I’m unsure who becomes an authority on an Iconic Afro-Latina Revolutionary Folk Hero Lesbian who dressed as a man and was a decorated Military mind. Hopefully some academic integrity will be excercised. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DecolonizeYourMind (talk • contribs) 06:14, December 14, 2017 (UTC)

I haven't seen a single source that says that Robles publicly identified as a lesbian. The closest we have is La coronela Robles Avila asumió a cabalidad su lesbianismo, se exhibía como hombre, which seems to contradict itself because (1) the same article mentions that Robles was not "la coronela" but rather "el coronel", and (2) that very sentence states that she presented as a man, which a lesbian is not. -- irn (talk) 14:59, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Keep current title – and use "Amelio" in body (except "Amelia" for childhood references), but use feminine pronouns throughout. In English, there are many cases of cisgender persons who use a given name that is perceived as reserved for the other gender, without changing their pronouns. In other cases, they do change pronouns, especially in the case of women going stealth as men in order to go to war or otherwise pursue an independent lifestyle. How to refer to them genderwise after their death when we know now what may have been hidden during their adult lifetime, is the problem. For me, this case is quite analogous to that of Albert Cashier (1843-1915) born Jennie Hodgers, who fought in forty battles in the U.S. Civil War. The topic of what pronouns to use came up frequently on the Talk pages there, and it might be worth reviewing some of them to avoid having to go through all that again here, although each case is different, of course. In the end, we should use the name and pronouns consistently used by reliable sources per MOS:IDENTITY, although that can be complicated if the person in question was trans, in which case MOS:GENDERID applies. That doesn't seem to be the case here, so, "Amelio", and feminine pronouns. Mathglot (talk) 12:50, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Robles may have been trans. That's literally the argument that Gabriela Cano makes. I've yet to actually read the Jstor article, but the summary we do have points out that Robles lived as a man for 70 years, until death and that Robles' male identity was respected by all parties – family, society, and even the Mexican government. It's interesting to note, too, that the other main source we have refers to the author meeting "el coronel" -forma en que la gente se dirigía a ella, which reeks of "everyone refers to her as a man, but I know she's actually a woman". -- irn (talk) 14:59, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Even if Robles was transgender according to our current understanding of that term, the vocabulary was not available to talk about it even in academic or medical circles at that time, and the concept was little known, although the term berdache as an appellation for an Indian cultural phenomenon was known by some. Yes, Robles may have been trans. It's always problematic though in a case like this, where the person's main contributions were way before the term 'transgender' was invented (1965) or commonly understood. It's unlikely that people of that epoch would have used a self-descriptions that would meet the current MOS:GENDERID test for trans status, so even if they were trans, it seems pretty unlikely that we can say that in Wikipedia's voice. One could certainly quote historians who say so, however, giving due weight to such opinions. The article doesn't currently do that, and it would not be POV to add a duly-sourced quotation from Cano or elsewhere about Robles' possible trans status, irrespective of the results of this move request. Mathglot (talk) 03:07, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

I just want to add that MOS:GENDERID is for people whose gender might be questioned. This whole conversation shows that Robles' gender might be questioned, so MOS:GENDERID applies. And MOS:GENDERID is clear that we are to Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. As I said above, no source denies that Robles insisted on being called "Amelio" and "el Coronel" and that this was true up until death (and not just during his time in the military). The excerpt below shows just how strong a desire this was, pointing out that Robles would literally threaten with a pistol anyone who misgendered him. That's about as clear a case as self-designation as you can get. We don't need to say if Robles was trans or not, but we do need to treat Robles the way that Robles wanted to be treated: as "Amelio, el Coronel". -- irn (talk) 14:42, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

As an historian , it is simply inaccurate to call Amelia trans. Period. The language did not exist at that time. For Anyone to use that language is absolutely ahistorical. Would Amelia have recognized the term? Very poor historiography. This is not writing history, it is propoganda. Latinax (talk) 11:08, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Cano writes in Spanish, what comment of hers exactly did you disagree with? By the way, I see you joined Wikipedia ten minutes ago; congratulations on making your first comment, and welcome! Mathglot (talk) 11:20, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

To IRN Talk: The sentence does not contractdict its self. You are confusing her in dressing masculine with her Sexual orientation. Two different things. All you need is one credible source to expose her sexual orientation as a masculine lesbian. Yes IRN, lesbians do present themselves as “masculine” and society’s definition of that is all relative. I agree with LatinX, it is ahistorical to use terms that did not exhist in the language of the era. A true historian would never do that. Joanne1212 (talk) 12:52, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

While the use of the term "trans" is debatable, it's actually irrelevant, and I apologize for making a point of it. What matters is not the label, but rather Robles' gender identity, which is different from sexual orientation (although the label we assign to the sexual orientation depends on gender identity). The evidence we have is not that Robles dressed in a masculine way, but rather that Robles presented to the world as a man. (se exhibía como hombre is different from se vestía como hombre) Not only that, but every single source agrees that when Robles was alive, no one called him "la coronela" (to his face, at least) but rather "el coronel". And to add to it, if anyone did misgender Robles in person, he would pull out his pistol on them. It doesn't get much clearer than that. And this, for 70 years – from age 24 until death.

A lot of the sources do treat Robles as a woman, and I don't know exactly how best to deal with that. When a source says things like "el coronel" -forma en que la gente se dirigía a ella, that source is clearly ignoring Robles' expressed gender identity, even more so when that very source repeatedly refers to Robles as "la coronela". If we want to follow that because that's what sources do, there's an argument there, but it's not a moral or ethical one. If that's what we decide, it's not because that's how Robles actually identified but rather how people have identified Robles when Robles had no control over the narrative. You're arguing about what's moral and ethical, but if Robles would threaten people with a gun for calling him a woman, why do you think it's the moral and ethical thing to do now that he's dead? -- irn (talk) 15:33, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

So we can agree that using the word “trans” demonstrates historical inaccuracy and inappropriateness for Amelia, El Coronel, since that language was non-existent during that error. I believe wikipedia should include a thorough history of exactly how she acted, wanted to be addresses and her sexual orientation in its proper timeline. When i first came to wikipedia to look Robles up, every single pronoun was he/him and there were trans rhetoric all over the biography, which compelled me to contribute. The request is to tell the story they way it is suppose to be told. From when she was born, to when she was serving the military with requested pronouns , requested to be called el coronel and the exact masculine attributes that were described from above, free from speculation, free from inference and free from vocabulary that was never used during that time. The main consensus believes, to keep her name in the feminine.. perhaps Carmen Amelia Robles-El Coronel, for accurate historical consistency, the same way every museum that had named her in their exhibit. I do not see one History exhibit that has Amelio Robles as her featured name. If you read the literature, her family was very adamant on naming the museum Amelia-Robles Museum-House- specifically for legacy reasons. Please also refer to the poem her nephew recited at her funeral. He made the poem centered around Amelias name, to “never forget it”. Those were are informative posts Joanne. Latinax (talk) 13:34, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

You wrote her family was very adamant on naming the museum Amelia-Robles Museum-House- specifically for legacy reasons. Where are you getting that from? It doesn't surprise me, but I'm not sure how relevant it is to our discussion. I'd be interested in seeing how the debate over the name of the museum played out, with one side being, as you say adamant about using Robles' birth name. Because from everything we have, it's clear that Robles would not have wanted it named "Amelia" but rather "Amelio" – indeed, Robles would have pulled out his pistol on anyone trying to name it "Amelia". Yet, despite that, Robles' family won out and has, to a large degree, determined the legacy against Robles' clear desires, and I'd be really interested in seeing how that happened. -- irn (talk) 14:32, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Mathglot! I plan on being more active after this semester with my students. Latinax (talk) 13:35, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Amelia Robles Ávila, a remarkable woman, was a born a female, went through life as a female, and died a female. Amelia described herself as a lesbian: "Asumió siempre su lesbianismo, lo que la hizo pionera en el reconocimiento de las libertades sexuales; se exhibía como hombre con pantalones olivo, camisa blanca de seda. Lesbians are homosexual females, not transgendered people. She is referred to a a woman by others. She is referred to by sources cited on her page (1) On her deathbed she requested to be buried in a dress. It's important to honor this revolutionary Mexican woman by preserving the historical accuracy of her life as she described herself. It would be great if someone can translate her biography from Spanish post it. Put towards consensus in favor of name change: Carmen Amelia Robles - El Coronelo. Gaye Chapman (talk) 02:17, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Count toward consensus for name change to Amelia Robles: Duby, who met Robles personally, understood her as a female performing masculinity. "According to Gertrude Duby, Amelio Robles's masculinity was not the expression of an authendtic subjectivity and physical identity resulitng from a powerful, intimate desire, but rather a pragmatic resource used to confront the social restrictions weighing down on the female sex," (p. 50 in Cano, G. (2007). Sex in Revolution: Gender, Politics, and Power in Modern Mexico, J. Olcott, M. Vaughn, G. Cano, & C. Monsivais (Eds.). Durham, NC: Duke University Press). Also, According to Gustafson, 2014, Cano and the majority of other scholars of gender in Mexico regard gender as performative rather than innate. So Cano herself understands gender as performative. Finally, the description of Cano's book from Duke explicitly states that it is a women's history: "Sex in Revolution challenges the prevailing narratives of the Mexican Revolution and postrevolutionary state formation by placing women at center stage. Bringing to bear decades of feminist scholarship and cultural approaches to Mexican history, the essays in this book demonstrate how women seized opportunities created by modernization efforts and revolutionary upheaval to challenge conventions of sexuality, work, family life, religious practices, and civil rights." Carl Boron (talk) 02:41, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

What about the politics around looking or Gaze Theory. In Women in Post Revolutionary Mexico: Politics, Culture, Identity and the Body, Eileen Mary Ford breaks down some of Canos arguement pointing out problematic areas not discussed, specifically how Lesbians Present as a form of resistance to looking convention. Citing cano’s multiple subjectivities of one individual thorough her analysis of Ameilio/a Robles competing and contradictory images from three different views. Interactions with and perceptions of contemporary army comrades; the sensationalistic gaze, rearticulation and redefinition by feminists appropriating Robles person as an individual. How Derby “ignored Robles self styled gender due to her own homophobic gaze.” Whoever is doing the looking is who controls the narrative, just like this page as a source with seemingly Anglos deciding a public historical record of a Mexican National. Also in my own work as a Lesbian Chicana I explore the intersections of Assimilation narratives from a White Heteropatriachal as well as Latino Heteropatriachal lense. Projecting a trans narrative is a form of assimilation narrative within a binary that many Lesbians, specifically masculine presenting are often excluded from or create an intersection for. Chicana feminists have been criticized for coopting Robles as a Soldadera to fit their narrative while ignoring her presentation, just as they are criticized for Trans Erasure. It could be argued the Same subjectivies are occurring with Homophia in ignoring Robles personally declared sexual orientation While presenting as masculine as forced assimilation. To add to the discussion of the contemporization of the term “Trans” an Anglo term to refer to Mexicans, we have a pre-Hispanic and Indigenous relationship with Minority Sexual Orientations and Genders outside of a European framework. An example would be Oaxacan Muxes who today don’t regularly identify as trans though Anglo based societies would deem them as such, they have thier own historical terminology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DecolonizeYourMind (talk • contribs) 04:22, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose I feel it's abundantly clear from the sources that Robles generally used "el Coronel" as a title, and "Amelio" is found in military records. The sources are all over the map as to what name to use to refer to her. They also disagree as to whether she was transgender or a lesbian who identified publicly as male due to social pressure. I agree with Irn's read of MOS:GENDERID that, given this, Amelio is the correct name to use in the article title. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:01, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

• • • It’s been stated historically that Robles was required to use the term publicly and on paperwork to be addressed properly in rank in the battle field, then later to receive a military pension. This from Family and close freinds. Though I did not find any research suggesting their actual preference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DecolonizeYourMind (talk • contribs) 04:27, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

• AGREE - Carmen Amelia Robles to be used along with Coronelo. There is not one historical museum or art exhibit that uses “Amelio” , they all use “Amelia” . Request to change to Amelia and translate her biography exactly how it is from spanish to english. New source) Redesdelsur, December 2017). Joanne1212 (talk) 12:42, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support. Fascinating but not unique person, and easily the most famous of the women who took normally male ranks at the time. Either name is acceptable, but the more recognisable name for English speakers looking for this article is her birth name Amelia. Andrewa (talk) 08:32, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Support name change- adding more sources All historical museums were named Ameila Robles-her female name followed by El Coronelo Here is another amazing Biography. It speaks about Amelias sexual orientation as a lesbian, Casa Museo de Amelia Robles and how her family reffered to her as a woman with feminine characteristics. .elciudadano.cl/justicia/detencion-violencia-intrafamiliar-iquique-hombre-habria-mordido-brazo-pareja/12/18/

Museo Comunitario de Xochipala Amelia Robles Ávilia //administracion2014-2015.guerrero.gob.mx/articulos/museos-2/

Museum in Guerreo Casa Museo Amelia La Güera Robles Http||.guiaturisticamexico.com/empresa/casa-museo-amelia-la-guera-robles Joanne1212 (talk) 04:02, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

• Keep, per his death certificate (that can be found online). Robles lived most of his life as a male, and died as such. WP:MOSGENDERID and template:MOS-TM should apply. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 08:07, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. At this point, this debate would close as no consensus and would not be renamed, so we really need to work hard to reach a consensus. If there were a bio written shortly after this prominent person's death, then it would use the terms of that time; however, that was then and this is now. Today, we speak, write and edit encyclopedias using today's language, not yesterday's. So while "transgender" was not in use much during the late sixties and seventies, it most certainly is in use now, and transgender describes this person quite well. If sources are not quite clear in terms of our COMMONNAME guide, then we can fall back on what this person was called during most of the time spent living and working. Some above describe Robles Ávila as a lesbian, a woman who prefers other women as partners. To me, Robles Ávila should be described as a woman who identified as a man who preferred women as partners. At the time "lesbian" was about the only term in usage, though it didn't come close to actually describing Robles Ávila, even if he did use it to describe himself. In today's words, Robles Ávila was definitely not a lesbian. He definitely was a transgender person. Robles Ávila possessed a gender identity and expression that differed from his assigned sex at birth. If he thought of himself as "lesbian", that is only because he did not have access to the modern word, "transgender", a word that truly describes him better than "lesbian" ever could.  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  21:49, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Just to clarify, some sources refer to Robles as a lesbian, but not one source (that has thus far been presented) actually claims that Robles ever self-identified as a lesbian. All the sources we have indicate that he would have rejected that term. -- irn (talk) 23:11, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

As would be expected. This interesting discussion makes me wonder about his love life. Is there anything in the reliable sources about it? I don't know why exactly, but this person fascinates me!  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  00:59, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

7 are in favour of moving the name over to Amelia and 4 are not. The main consensus should have been reached over two weeks ago according to wikipedia guidelines. The issue presenting here is everyone interjecting their misconceptions of sexual orientation and gender identity. The two terms are not interchangabe and politically have nothing to do with one another. All historians agree that you simply can not use langage that did not exist to describe a person living during that time. Wikipedia is suppose to be a historical reference, if you all want to get together and write a thesis of your personal interpretation then by means go for it. The scientific material reality is that you have a women who was not shy about her female relationships , hence the multiple sources writing on her female partner and child, whose sexual orientation is Lesbian. As for the rest of the “gender ideology “ theories, this really isnt the place for that. Presentism creates cultural and sociological bias. www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/may-2002/against-presentism Joanne1212 (talk) 13:53, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Consensus is not the same as voting, I wouldn't even consider those that did less than 10 edits in the website, considering multiple of this accounts came from another website, like Tumblr or Twitter[7], and their argument was basically the same.

Sources--not him--say "she" was "lesbian"--during an era where "trans" wasn't a term--but no source present indicates he identified as a male. But there are plenty of sources indicating he hated to be refered to as a female, sometimes violently. In the 50s he falsified a birth certificate to be honored as a veterano, (not veterana), and his death certificate says male. And for the "historical factual encyclopedia" argument, just to cite one example of many, Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky never publicly came out as gay; however multiple academics agree he was gay. As more time passes more sources will agree that Robles was a trans man. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 22:54, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I count 2 in support and 4 opposed to this page move. And since the numbers only give a rough estimate of consensus if that, the closer will go by the arguments presented and by the fact that more than one editor in this discussion is brand spankin' new to Wikipedia – it's just too easy to "sock" it to these discussions. It's also much easier than it used to be to catch a sock. Just sayin'.  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  01:46, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Can someone copy and paste the citation of his death certificate? I haven’t seen that source. Joanne1212 (talk) 14:27, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Whoops* Her death certificate Joanne1212 (talk) 14:28, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

@Joanne1212: Are you assuming their gender? Follow this link Nombre: Amelio, apellido paterno: Robles, apellido materno: Avila (without accent as it will mark an error), sexo: masculino, fecha de nacimiento: left blank as it only needs the death date, fecha de defunción: 09/12/1984. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 20:03, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Amelia Robles Ávila

Amelia Robles Ávila, a remarkable woman, was a born a female, went through life as a female, and died a female. Gaye Chapman (talk) 05:41, 12 December 2017 (UTC) Amelia described herself as a lesbian: "Asumió siempre su lesbianismo, lo que la hizo pionera en el reconocimiento de las libertades sexuales; se exhibía como hombre con pantalones olivo, camisa blanca de seda. "Gaye Chapman (talk) 05:41, 12 December 2017 (UTC) Lesbians are homosexual females, not transgendered people.Gaye Chapman (talk) 05:41, 12 December 2017 (UTC) On her deathbed Robles she requested to be buried in a dress.Gaye Chapman (talk) 05:41, 12 December 2017 (UTC) I think it's important to honor this revolutionary Mexican woman by preserving the historical accuracy of her life as she described herself. Gaye Chapman (talk) 05:41, 12 December 2017 (UTC) It would be great if someone can translate her biography from Spanish post it.Gaye Chapman (talk) 05:41, 12 December 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaye Chapman (talk • contribs)

Amelia Robles, la coronela Robles, described herself as a Lesbian. Throughout her life, Amelia requested that close friends and family call her "la coronela" and refer to her by her given name, Amelia. Those who knew Amelia Robles personally verified that her masculine presentation was reflective Amelia's understanding of herself as a butch lesbian, a female, who adopted dress and mannerisms stereotypical of males as a practical course for the purpose of accessing economic and political power. The English language Wikipedia page should reflect the same information as is reflected in Amelia Robles' Spanish language biography. Failure to accurately represent Amelia Robles as a lesbian woman is not only inaccurate and anachronistic, but is a form of cultural imperialism as well. Amelia Robles deserves to have her name and legacy accurately recorded in history. Carl Boron (talk) 17:41, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

05:41 comment is a dupliate of the comment above. Mathglot (talk) 10:35, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Changing the title to "Amelia"

Amelia was a lesbian fully aware of her female biology and her Wikipedia page should reflect that with her accurate, given name. Her legacy deserves to be represented correctly. Mamaenojada (talk) 19:58, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Historical Proof to Change Sexual Orientation and Gender?

Robles is an Iconic figure in Mexico known as a cross-dressing female Lesbian and Soldadera, even featured on the Wikipage for Soldaderas which is a female revolutionary. How does anyone have the authority to change to a transman when historically recognized as a Female that used male pronouns in an age when Lesbianism and moving up in the ranks of a Male Military was not an option for Women. Why is a consensus needed to name change when there is no evidence of Trans identity, it’s assumed, yet Lesbian As sexual orientation is historical record from Robles own words and other anecdotal accounts. Where was the concensus to Change Robles Sexual Orientation and Gender? DecolonizeYourMind (talk) 20:38, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Translation of lead paragraph from Spanish

This is a response to the feedback request at WT:LGBT#Amelio Robles Ávila. I am only responding to the request for feedback about the requested move; this is not a proposal to change the English translation (if it's different; I haven't looked at the English, on purpose) but merely background information that may help inform the move question.

The following is my translation of the lead of the Spanish article, Amelio Robles Ávila as of today (last changed July 27):

Amelio Robles Ávila (November 3, 1889, Xochipala, Guerrero – December 9, 1984, Xochipala, Guerrero) was a Mexican Colonel who participated in the Mexican Revolution. Robles is considered the first transgender person in Mexico whose gender change was institutionally recognized.

Note that the title of the article and the name used in the bold title are both the male name "Amelio". One can see in the Spanish lead an attempt to minimize the use of pronouns as much as possible; one adjective which could not easily be avoided has a feminine ending (considerada). The section #Biografía uses feminine nouns and adjectives throughtout: educada, pequeña, tesorera, enviada, herida, etc.

It was not always this way, and there has been some back and forth: this change shows a flip from F to M, subsequently reverted back to F.

So it hasn't been steady sailing there, either, but the current choice of the Spanish community, is to use the masculine name Amelio throughout, both in the article title, and in the article body (except for using 'Amelia' for childhood references), and to use feminine nouns and adjectives to refer to Amelio. Mathglot (talk) 12:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't look to es.wiki for guidance on this. In general, es.wiki has a much harder time dealing with trans people. There is no guideline or anything like MOS:GENDERID, and es.wiki's dispute resolution is poor, to say the least. Often what happens is lots of edit-warring and then an admin comes in and just kind of arbitrarily determines how to set it. (Admins are granted a level of decision-making power on es.wiki that they don't have on en.wiki.) This article hasn't gotten enough attention (the entire article history only has 43 edits), so it's just been a couple of editors changing things. That said, the general rule on es.wiki is to use pre-transition pronouns and endings until transition, and then switch upon transition, which is what this article does (note the lead uses the masculine “coronel” and the biography switches to “el mismo”, “registrado”, etc. after transition), in contrast to MOS:GENDERID, which states that we should use the latest expressed gender identity throughout the article. In other words, es.wiki has a different set of rules, so it's not a good idea to look to how it's done there. -- irn (talk) 14:46, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Translation of excerpts from Cano

Additional translated material as part of a response to the feedback request at WT:LGBT#Amelio Robles Ávila, to help inform the decision about the Requested move, above.

The 2009, 26-page article by Gabriela Cano goes into a lot more detail than just this, and it's worth reading the whole thing.

The radical, permanent masculinization of a young person of rural origins started with Robles' incorporation into the Mexican Revolution. For reasons more vital than ideological, Amelio Robles, formerly Amelia Robles, joined up with the forces that rose up in the southern part of the country under the agrarian flag of Emiliano Zapata, and in the very midst of the harshness of war, forged a masculine social and subjective identity. After all the armed conflict, Amelio Robles continued presenting male and maintained a masculine identity throughout life in the public and private spheres, during old age, and in sickness.

The pistol and cigarette, symbols of masculinity, were not merely the accoutrements of a photographic studio but rather objects of daily use belonging to Amelio Robles, whose masculine image constituted a subjective, social, and sexual identity which prevailed in all aspects of Robles' life. This wasn't just a momentary pose for the camera lens, as was the image that Frida Kahlo adopted, for example, dressing in male garb for family portraits taken by her father in 1926 (Herrera, Taymor, et al. 2002: 33 and Stellweg 1992: 102-103). In the case of Kahlo, this was a playful gesture, a bit irreverent, perhaps to follow the French flapper garçonne style (and at the same time, to cover the withering of her left leg caused by infantile poliomyelitis). In the case of the painter, there was no desire to pass for a man, something at which Amelio Robles succeeded admirably.

One should distinguish the effective and permanent masculinization of Amelio Robles from strategic cross-dressing—the adoption of male clothing to pass for a man—which some women had recourse to in periods of war whether to protect themselves against sexual assault which was rife during armed conflict, or to gain military command, or simply, to fight as soldiers and not as women soldiers (soldaderas), that is, without the social restrictions of gender that usually weigh upon women in the armed forces. In nationalist wars of the the 19th century, and later in the Mexican Revolution, the soldaderas were tasked with supplies for the troops, and with the ill, and occasionally took on messenger tasks and dealing with contraband of arms and foodstuffs, but only very exceptionally took up arms. ...

The Secretary of National Defense (SDN) legitimized Amelio Robles' masculine identity on decorating him in 1974 as a "Veterano de la Revolución" and not as a veterana, a distinction allowed to three hundred women for their service to the revolution. ...

Amelio Robles demanded to be recognized as a man, both in public as well as in private. One neighbor underlined, "I never said 'Señora' to him, I always said 'Señor Robles' because he took out his pistol if anyone ever said 'woman' or 'Ma'am'" (Albarran Orozco 1999). ... Among family, Amelio's masculinity was accepted as a given; his grand-nieces addressed him as uncle or grandpa and observed his sexual identity until they became adults, inasmuch as the subject wasn't discussed at home. Only in exceptional circumstances, when the bonds of homosocial connection among friends was reinforced with the consumption of alcohol, would the aging Robles sometimes accept being called "Colonel, Ma'am" (mi coronela) by his closest kin.

HTH, Mathglot (talk) 02:19, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for that! That's really illuminating. -- irn (talk) 15:36, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Amelia was a lesbian- see cultura colectiva source.stop deleting sources

I would like to know why cultura colectiva has been deleted as a source for this woman? Is it because it explicitly states her sexual orientation was a lesbian? There is no textual proof stating this woman was transgender. To omit that she was a lesbian and include other interpretations by other writers on who they identifed her is completely wrong, ethically and morally. Again, this source needs to be added and her biography should be translated from spanish to English , which explains why she used male pronouns at work but in her personal life everyone called her Amelia. Joanne1212 (talk) 16:15, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

As I explained in the edit summary, the Cultura Colectiva piece is based completely on the Bibliotecas piece, so it's redundant. (It's also not a reliable source and violates the guideline on external links.) You say in her personal life everyone called her Amelia, but we have two sources that directly contradict that,[8][9] and literally nothing to support it. Do you have any proof for your assertion? -- irn (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Please see the next discussion that has her nephew’s poem to amelia during her funeral and her family choose to make her house a Museum in which it was named after her- Amelia Robles. Joanne1212 (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Amelias Nephew wants you to remember her name as Amelia Robles

Ok here is what i have Pionera en los derechos sexuales en México No obstante la época en la que le tocó vivir, Robles Ávila mantuvo públicas sus preferencias sexuales. Fue lesbiana e incluso tuvo una relación conocida con una mujer llamada Ángela Torres, de Apipicuilco Guerrero. Ambas tuvieron una hija adoptiva, Regula Robles Torres. (Masdemx,2017) La Casa Museo has honors Amelia as La Coronela Amelia Robles. Also the exact translation is not for her to wear a dress, but for her to be dressed as a woman. Amelia Robles dejó de existir el 9 de diciembre de 1984, cuando tenía 95 años de edad. Para el momento de su muerte solicitó dos cosas: que se le hicieran honores por sus méritos militares y que se le vistiera de mujer para encomendar su alma a Dios. (Bibliotecas ,) Her nephew also dedicated a poem to her La figura de la coronela Amelia Robles sembró corridos en el colectivo popular. Uno de ellos, debido a la inspiración de su sobrino Simón Ramírez Martínez, dice:

Su nombre fue Amelia Robles,
coronela consagrada,
no olviden de su nombre,
era orquídea perfumada,
llévenle un ramo de flores
a su tumba abandonada.
“Her name was Amelia Robles
An awarded Coronel
Don’t forget her name
She was a fragrant orchid
Bring a bouquet of flowers
To her abandoned grave” (Bibliotecas)

Please look up Mesdemx Amelia Robles for source. I cant copy my link into here Joanne1212 (talk) 01:59, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Your source is here: HTH, Mathglot (talk) 02:40, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

References

Museums and Art Exhibits Named After Emilia Robles

Famous Historical Museums

The National Museum of Mexican Art: Chicago- Coronel Carmen Amelia Robles Categorized under female afro-mexican soldaderas

Oakland Museum - Coronel Carmen Amelia Robles

Amelia-Robles Museum-House- the museums name was chosen with collaboration the Robles Family

The African-American Museum -Coronel Carmen Amelia Robles Black Women’s History: You’ve Got Something to Celebrate on “Cinco de Mayo”. (Beyond black and white, 2015)

Guerrero, Casa Museo Amelia La Güera Robles

Museo de las Culturas Afromestizos , Colonel Carmen Amelia Robles Avila There are sources w links but it wont let me uoload Joanne1212 (talk) 12:31, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Joanne, you don't have to upload anything. Can you just copy/paste the url of the references? The url is the character string in the address bar at the top of your browser, that looks like http://SomeStringOfCharacters. (In some browsers, you won't see the "http" part; just copy whatever you see there; often it will start with "www" but not always.) One reference for each museum would be great. Cordially, Mathglot (talk) 05:35, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi! Okay i will try that. Here is an amazing Biography. It speaks about Amelias sexual orientation as a lesbian, Casa Museo de Amelia Robles and how her family reffered to her as a woman with feminine characteristics. .elciudadano.cl/justicia/detencion-violencia-intrafamiliar-iquique-hombre-habria-mordido-brazo-pareja/12/18/

I will work on the others Joanne1212 (talk) 00:32, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Museo Comunitario de Xochipala Amelia Robles Ávilia //administracion2014-2015.guerrero.gob.mx/articulos/museos-2/ Joanne1212 (talk) 00:41, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Museum in Guerreo Casa Museo Amelia La Güera Robles Http||.guiaturisticamexico.com/empresa/casa-museo-amelia-la-guera-robles Joanne1212 (talk) 02:46, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Joanne, just fyi: your first url above did not work, but from the pieces of the url, I was able to find the article you meant to link to; it is here. However, this is not an article about Robles, but rather, a news article from two days ago about a domestic dispute regarding a man who bit his wife's arm. Probably you had another url in mind, and copied the wrong link by mistake.

Your second url, containing info about the Xochipala museum, can be found here, and the 3rd one redirects to here.

When you have a chance, please have a look at WP:TALK for guidelines on using Talk pages. One thing to take a look at, is the section on using one or more leading colons (:) to indent your comments one more tab stop than the comment you are replying to: have a look at WP:INDENT for that. You're doing great with your signature using ~~~~, so keep that up! HTH, Mathglot (talk) 08:54, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

I will take a look at those links in a bit. I couldnt help but to laugh about the artcle of the man of bit his wife’s hand! Here is the link i meant to post! And thanks so much for all the feedback!! www.elciudadano.cl/organizacion-social/amelia-robles-avila-el-coronel-de-la-revolucion/10/21/ Joanne1212 (talk) 07:00, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

These sources you're bringing in don't add anything to what we already know: this source, like so many others, states clearly that Robles lived nearly his entire adult life as a man, demanded to be treated as such, and was treated as such, but for some reason, the author of the piece treats Robles as a woman. Amelia tomó la determinación de adoptar un nuevo nombre, personalidad e identidad que llevaría por el resto de sus días: ya no sería más Amelia Robles, la Güera Amelia o la coronela Amelia Robles, sino "el coronel Amelio Robles" o simplemente "el señor Robles", logrando que hombres y mujeres, revolucionarios y no revolucionarios, se dirigieran a ella así por temor o por haber aceptado su elección. This piece, like so many others, basically says "everyone accepted that she was a man and treated her as such", which is an implicit acknowledgement that the author is misgendering Robles. -- irn (talk) 16:58, 26 December 2017 (UTC)