Talk:Andy Summers

Interesting Guitar

I'm curious what this 6 + 7 + 7 string guitar is and how it was used.

http://flickr.com/photos/ubermatt/2529951205/in/set-72157605297113148/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.121.97 (talk) 12:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Birth year

Was he really born in 1942 rather than 1952?

That appears to be a typographical error. Can anybody check on this?

If you read a lot of articles about the Police, you'll find mention that Andy Summers is 10 years older than Sting and Stewart Copeland.

If you still doubt this, check The Police: Message in a Box: The Complete Recordings. Andy's birth date is clearly stated as December 31, 1942.

Andy's official recording career began in the 1960s as a member of Zoot Money's Big Roll Band, Dantalion's Chariot, and Eric Burdon and the Animals. He was in his 20s during this period. The box set even mentions that a teenaged Sting saw Andy perform with one of those groups, roughly a decade before they would become bandmates.

If you're still not sure, wait for his autobiography, One Train Later, to be published in October 2006 by St. Martin's Press.

Oddly some of the material in One Train Later implies that Summers was born in 1946, and not 1942. For example an encounter with Hank Marvin when Cliff Richard and the Shadows perform in Bournemouth seems to occur when Summers is 13 or 14, and since the earliest this could have happened is sometime in 1959 it implies Summers was born in 1946. Another example is that Sonny Rollins classic The Bridge, which came out in January of 1962, is discussed just prior to a section mentioning Summers turning 16, again implying he was born in 1946.

The following essay on his own website mentions seeing Eddie Cochran on TV when Summers was 13, which could also imply a 1946 birthdate.

http://www.andysummers.com/lightstrings.php Tim gueguen 19:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no question that Summers was born in 1942. It does seem that he is misremembering some of the events described in his autobiography on the one hand, and his autobiography is also often fuzzy about chronology on the other hand. I don't know how you're managing to correlate the Cliff Richard references so precisely though. Is there really a record somewhere of when Richard first played Bournemouth and first appeared on television? TheScotch 08:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no specific dates for when Richard first appeared on TV or toured Bournemouth. However Hank Marvin joined what where then the Drifters sometime in the second half of 1958, and the first singles with Marvin on them were released in the first part of 1959. So whenever Hank Marvin first appeared live backing Cliff Richard it couldn't have been earlier than the fall of '58, and was more likely sometime in '59. So either Summers screwed things up by remembering something happening at 13 or 14 when he was actually 16 or 17, or his birthdate has been consistently presented as four years earlier than it actually is.Tim gueguen 20:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If you don't know when Cliff Richard played Bournemouth and he couldn't have played it earlier than 1959, then as far as you know he might have played it in 1960, 1961, or 1962, and so on. Summers's birthdate has been "consistently" represented as December 31, 1942--very consistently, in numerous disparate reputable sources. Summers's fuzzy chronology in his book doesn't seem to me completely consistent, but it's hard to tell because it's fuzzy.

As of page 137 (in the hardback edition), which is as far as I've got, I'm coming to the conclusion that Summers is deliberately attempting to portray himself as younger than he is supposed to be. On page 135, just before he describes the Animals break-up, he says, "I will be twenty-three on my next birthday." I don't know what year it's supposed to be at this point, but it couldn't possibly be earlier than 1968, and it's more likely 1969. The latter fits your 1946 theory. TheScotch 09:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Internet sources confirm that the version of the Animals that included Summers broke up in 1969. On the other hand, Summers on page 143 confirms that he was born on December 31 (of a year he doesn't specify), and then on page 146 (I've read just a bit further now) he says he was twenty-nine in November of 1973, which two circumstances would mean that the year of his birth would have to be 1943. Somehow, by his own account, he managed to age six years between 1969 and 1973. TheScotch 12:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this discussion points out why an autobiography is not considered a reliable source for articles for any facts that might be disputed. --Bloodzombie 17:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Let me suggest someone email Summers and ask him to clear this all up? Fp cassini (talk) 05:19, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes he was definitely born in 1942, is about ten years older than the other two from the Police. Hooooooof (talk) 18:46, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Finally, here is absolute, definitive proof directly from the source: https://twitter.com/asummersmusic/status/1623362042458513409/photo/1 AmateurExpert (talk) 02:20, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth, his birth was registered in Fylde district in the Jan-March quarter of 1943. That's because he was born on the last day of the previous quarter. I believe it's impossible for a birth to be registered before it occurs.

Incidentally his birth was sandwiched between those of an elder brother and a younger brother; they were born in the Bournemouth area, one in 1933 and the other 1946. Perhaps the third brother's birth was confusing to some. 2600:1700:EA01:1090:F937:69FE:EBBF:6460 (talk) 18:24, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Legal father

What does it mean that Andrew is now legally fathered by Martin...? That's a very confusing statement.

I've read Martin Turner discuss this in interviews. Andy Summers had a relationship with Martin's now wife during his period apart from Kate, they fathered a child, Andrew Jnr, who has been raised by his mother and her now husband Martin. Martin legally adopted Andrew Jnr.

Kate who?

Re: "In 1973, he married Kate, a psychology graduate, and they had a daughter, Layla Z Summers (born in 1978)."

If this person's maiden name is unknowable, then the passage should at least be reworded so that it reads something like, "He married his girlfriend Kate in 1973." If Kate were (or is) an actual psychologist, then "a psychologist" would help to identify her, but the phrase "a psychology graduate" is essentially meaningless and should be deleted.TheScotch 08:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Did any of you ever see the VH1 Behind the Music special that documented The Police? WikiPro1981X (talk) 22:52, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

UCLA

Didn't Summers study classical guitar at UCLA from approximately 1969 to 1973? If so, shouldn't the article mention this? It would seem to me a pretty important part of his biography. TheScotch 09:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've added this information (under the rubric "Education"). I don't know whether Summers graduated from UCLA, though. I hope someone can tell us.TheScotch 06:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Let me suggest someone email Summers and ask him if he graduated, and anything else that this article's fuzzy about, such as his year of birth. Fp cassini (talk) 05:22, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Sources

I am planning an expansion of this article and rewrite of some sections with sources. The entire article is currently unsourced. If anyone has any good links to articles on Summers, can we collect them here to start improving the article? Thanks --Bloodzombie 16:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

There is of course his autobiography One Train Later (which is not, however, entirely trustworthy, as I've noted above). There is a Police entry in the on-line Grove Dictionary of Music (a highly reputable source, although not nearly as reputable as the 1980 hardbound edition, which, incidentally, has fewer entries having to do with pop music). There is also, of course, Summers's web site.

Acknowledging sources is fine, but I don't want to see this article riddled with footnotes. Take a look at the Encyclopedia Britannica or the Encyclopedia Americana or the Funk & Wagnall Encyclopedia and see how many footnotes you find. I think you'll find there are virtually none at all. TheScotch 18:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't favor extensive use of footnotes either. I like to use one at the end of each paragraph for the reader's reference, unless there is a statement that is likely to be disputed; in that case, I think a footnote at the end of the sentence is appropriate. Do you agree? What do you think of the style I have used in the Equipment section? --Bloodzombie 18:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The footnotes in this section don't seem to me to be especially obtrusive, but I'm not convinced we really need them at all. A "Reference" section will be understood to refer to the information in the article proper without footnotes.TheScotch 06:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

If I may make a suggestion, you might familiarize yourself with the criteria for good articles and featured articles, both of which are the eventual goal for any article here. Reviewers always require articles to be properly verifiable; an article of any good length and thoroughness requires inline citations so readers don't have to guess which of a jumble of references at the bottom is intended to verify facts in the article. Makes sense? --Bloodzombie 14:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I think if we're really afraid there might be confusion (and I don't see how there could be in this particular case), then all we really need to do is make the reference section more specific. You seem to be suggesting that the longer the article the greater the need for footnotes, but the longer the article the more a reader will need to scroll down to read it in its entirety, which necessarily means trying to find the information the footnotes reference will be the more aggravating. An on-line encyclopedia thus has even less an excuse for footnotes.TheScotch 21:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Footnotes are clickable; clicking them takes you directly to their respective reference and then you can click again to go back to where you were. So that is not a reason not to have footnotes. Please read the project pages I linked above - articles really cannot make it to GA or FA status without inline citations. I think we should be using inline citations (minimally) unless we have a very compelling reason not to. --Bloodzombie 17:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Equipment

This article as it now stands seems to me obsessively concerned with brand names and models of guitars. I don't think any mention of them should occur in the opening paragraph, and the "Equipment" section, if it is to be retained at all, should be reduced to at least one-third of its current size. Brand-name guitar buffs can indulge themselves elsewhere.TheScotch 06:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Summers is well-known and noted for his guitar collection and equipment; Guitar Player Magazine has done more than one story on just his rig. It is very much in scope for an article about a guitarist to cover his equipment in detail. And trust me, what I have written is extremely concise in relation to the depth of information that is available about Summers' equipment. Additionally, I intend to expand the other sections of the article considerably so they are proportionate to the equipment section. --Bloodzombie 14:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a missing component regarding Andy Summers' relationship to Hamer Guitars - more than just playing them, he was critical in the prototyping of various models early in the company's history. I bring this up because the prominent use of Hamer Guitars by Summers is what originally led me to discover the brand.

[1] [2] [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.170.173.22 (talk) 12:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

If this is true, it is a major oversight of the article's. Nowhere is Hamer mentioned, and the infobox's "Notable instruments" lists only Fender Strat & Tele, conveying a very different impression than a "prominent use" of a boutique electric guitar brand birthed in 1973 would. This issue should be high priority for this page, I think. Fp cassini (talk) 13:42, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

If the justification for this section is that "Summers is well-known and noted for his guitar collection and equipment," then if we're to retain it at its current length we need to amend the opening sentence which now reads, "Andy Summers (born Andrew James Somers 31 December 1942) is an English guitarist and composer best known for his work in The Police," so that it reads, "Andy Summers (born Andrew James Somers 31 December 1942) is an English guitarist, composer, guitar collector, and guitar enthusiast best known for his work in The Police."TheScotch 21:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. I can provide many sources that back up that claim. --Bloodzombie 17:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

The Hype Continues

Generally, Wikipedia's musician-related articles read like press releases from the artists' publicists. This one's no exception, so it's almost pointless to mention it here. It's no better and no worse than most others I've read, but I tire of reading the hyperbolic drivel like "acknowledged as one of the most-imitated" blah-blah-blah.

Maybe, but such unproven and unprovable opinions add nothing to the information presented. B. Polhemus (talk) 19:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Andy Summers / Eberhard Schoener

No hay menciones sobre los trabajos en colaboracion de Andy Summers / Eberhard Schoener. Eberhard Schoener - Sarabande (1975) EMI/Electrola, Eberhard Schoener - Flashback (1978) EMI/Electrola, Eberhard Schoener - Video Magic (1978) EMI/Electrola, Eberhard Schoener - Video Flashback (1988) Phonogram, Eberhard Schoener - Sting - Andy Summers (1990) Phonogram. Puede alguien aportar mas informacion sobre este?

There are no entries on the works in collaboration with Andy Summers / Eberhard Schoener. Eberhard Schoener - Sarabande (1975) EMI / Electrola, Eberhard Schoener - Flashback (1978) EMI / Electrola, Eberhard Schoener - Video Magic (1978) EMI / Electrola, Eberhard Schoener - Video Flashback (1988) Phonogram, Eberhard Schoener - Sting - Andy Summers (1990) Phonogram. Can anyone provide more info on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Takenae (talk • contribs) 09:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article is about a living person, and is completely unreferenced. The few references were either too vague to verify, or self-published. I've deleted the material that was not referenced. -- Mikeblas (talk) 02:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

BUT DELETING THE WHOLE BIOGRAPHY, MAKING IT A ONE LINE ENTRY????? ISNT THAT EXTREME? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.83.78 (talk) 06:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It's aggressive, but completely within Wikipedia policy: unreferenced material, particularly in articles about living people, is not appropriate. -- Mikeblas (talk) 22:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:BLP says: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". Would you care to explain why you considered the material in question contentious? It's fine to remove contentious unsourced statements, but it's only fair to explain the reasons why it was considered contentious in the first place. --LjL (talk) 16:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

April 5,2011- I will be publishing cited and referenced information that comes directly from the source here in a couple days. If the moderators, would be kind enough to discuss with me the problems with this page in the past and my new revision of this page I would appreciate that. There are a lot of issues that people are talking about here and I cannot figure out what actually applies to the current page or any previous revisions. When I publish this information in two days, I would appreciate kindness and the moderators actually being helpful. Thank you. --simplycreative

"Summers sang lead vocals on several songs..." too fawning

In the "Police" subsection of the "Biographie"(sp?) section, it reads "Summers sang lead vocals on several songs, including "Sally" and "Mother." ." I feel that smacks of a fan's devotion or a press release's hyperbole. Summers sang on less than 10 of the band's ~70 songs, none of which were singles, hits or even notably strong AOR radio tracks, "deep cuts", concert staples, or generally recognized to be core to the canon. (Although I did read that Summers' "Omegaman" was considered as a possible pre-LP single b4 Ghost, but Sting was against the idea.) Although technically speaking 7, 8 or 9 is 'several', it's disingenuous to imply that Summers' singing w/ the Police is significant in any way. I count Summers having songwriting credit on ten of The Police's appr. 72-75 songs. I know "Camel Toe" is an instrumental. I believe it's not the only one. It would seem Summers sang on 10-11% on his band's songs. Fp cassini (talk) 16:28, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, good point. Do you have a suggested re-wording? Maybe "Summers sang lead vocals on a small number of songs ..." --Spike Wilbury ♫ talk 18:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

How's "Summers sang lead vocals on the small number of songs he contributed to the Police, typically one per album plus b-sides."? Fp cassini (talk) 03:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

That sounds fine. I'm reminded of the song "Someone To Talk To". It's not in the article now, but it was a Police song Summers sang lead on that Sting didn't like and it never made an album. It was a b-side to "Wrapped Around Your Finger". --Spike Wilbury ♫ talk 15:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Only problem with "Summers sang lead vocals on the small number of songs he contributed to the Police, typically one per album plus b-sides" is that it's completely untrue(which I assume is why it was deleted from the article). For that matter, so is your claim that Summers has songwriting credit on ten of The Police's songs. Summers has 15 songwriting credits with the Police, and of these, he sang lead vocals on only two: "Mother" and "Someone to Talk To". "Sally" doesn't have lead vocals at all, only piano and spoken word(both performed by Summers). Finally, it's also untrue that Sting didn't like "Someone to Talk To". He liked the song; it was only the lyrics he disliked, hence why he refused to do the vocals on it.--Martin IIIa (talk) 12:43, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Andy Summers

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Andy Summers's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "allmusic":

• From Dantalian's Chariot: "Dantalian's Chariot Biography". Allmusic. Retrieved 2010-04-27.
• From Post-punk: Erlewine, Stephen Thomas. "Post-Punk" Allmusic. Retrieved 2 November 2006.
• From The Police: Erlewine, Stephen Thomas (2007). "The Police > Biography". allmusic. Retrieved 29 March 2009.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 03:20, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

General clean-up

I will be doing a general clean-up of this biography over the next week or so and maybe adding some images.Whoisjohngalt (talk) 15:46, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Which guitar?

Does anybody know which of the two guitars on "As the Years Go Passing By" from the album Love Is by the Animals is he playing? The wah wah on the right channel or the one on the left? One of the two belongs to John Weider I suppose. Chapa1985 (talk) 22:35, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOTFORUM. This is not the place to be asking this. Sro23 (talk) 23:32, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

It is well known that he plays the 4-minute guitar solo on "Coloured Rain"...so I would like to find out which of the two guitars is he playing on "As the Years Go Passing By" because the article does not specify about it. What's the problem with this? Chapa1985 (talk) 14:26, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm sure there are plenty of online forums that can help you, but not here. This discussion page is for improving the article. Again, it's outlined very clearly in WP:NOTFORUM. Sro23 (talk) 16:12, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Jimi Hendrix encounter

During his stint in the Zoot Money band, in September '66, Summers met Jimi Hendrix on the day the latter arrived in England, and became the first British guitar player to get to see some of Hendrix' playing on UK soil (privately, not a stage show). Clearly noteworthy and I have a good source for this, gonna look it up in a few days time. :) 83.254.142.115 (talk) 14:04, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

It's "noteworthy" if the encounter was noted in the press, or described later by a biographer as significant to either Summers or Hendrix. Otherwise, it's trivia. Binksternet (talk) 14:18, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

It's mentioned in his autobiography, One Train Later. A brief, one-time encounter. I don't consider it worth mentioning. It's trivia.
Vmavanti (talk) 17:24, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Duh, you must have failed to notice that I do have a cite for it from somebody who isn't Summers and who is a notable source on rock music and new wave. I'll just check the page next time I visit the public library.

Besides, your sainted rules about what is or isn't trivia and what's permitted to write make no sense. Most of the section about his years in The Police in the current article isn't cited from anything, and the statements about his songwriting and vocal credits for the band could all be ripped as trivia - I don't think you'll find any rock journalist who has taken the space in a book to really discuss the fact that he co-wrote "Be My Girl, Sally" or sang on "Omegaman". :)

From section "The Police":

• "Summers achieved international fame as the guitarist for The Police, which he joined in 1977, eventually replacing original guitarist Henry Padovani. Emerging from London's punk scene, the Police gained international renown with many hit songs, including "Message in a Bottle", "Roxanne", "Don't Stand So Close to Me", "Every Breath You Take", and "Every Little Thing She Does is Magic". During his time with the band, Summers twice won a Grammy Award for Best Rock Instrumental Performance, first in 1979 with "Reggatta de Blanc" (co-authored with Copeland and Sting), and again in 1980 with his instrumental "Behind My Camel".

Although Sting was the lead singer of the band, Summers occasionally contributed lead vocals, as in "Be My Girl/Sally" (1978), "Friends" (1980), "Mother" (1983), and "Someone to Talk To" (1983). Other notable Summers compositions from this period are "Omegaman" (which would have been released as the debut single from the 1981 Ghost in the Machine album had Sting not objected).

No "reliable sources" noted for that, and it could easily be argued that the entire first paragraph of those two belongs in the Police article rather than here. ;) 83.254.142.115 (talk) 21:19, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, got around to the library yesterday. The encounter with Hendrix is retold by David Hepworth in his book from last year, "Uncommon People: The Rise and Fall of the Rock Stars". Hepworth is undeniably a notable guy in the public side of rock music, he's captained several youth and pop music magazines, met thousands of people of high importance and presented Live Aid and Top of the Pops. He's not a guy likely to be impressed by small potatoes, and Summers is very likely to have been musically impressed by Hendrix too, so I think this is both notable and well verified. 83.254.142.115 (talk) 16:30, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Birth name and date

There has been dispute about his year of birth (1942/5) and surname at birth (Somers/Summers) but his place of birth is not challenged (Poulton-le-Fylde). Government records of births (and marriages and deaths) in England and Wales are searchable on-line at FreeBMD. In the 1940s, there was no birth of an Andrew Somers registered but several Andrew Summers. Among them is "Summers, Andrew J" in the Fylde registration district, registered in the first quarter of 1943 which would be consistent with a birth on 31 December 1942 in Poulton-le-Fylde (the mother's maiden name is given as Allwright). Nedrutland (talk) 09:15, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Rick Beato/Andy Summers Interview: Andy picked up guitar at 12?

I know people are not reliable sources on matters concerning themselves in the Wikipedia sense of reliability. I wouldn't want it any other way. Maybe there is a verifiable source for the age at which Mr. Summers picked up the guitar? At approx. 57 secs into the quite recent Rick Beato YouTube channel's video 'Andy Summers: His Career With The Police and Iconic Guitar Style' Andy Summers states that he was 'about 12 years' of age when he got his first guitar from a cousin and was immediately fixated on it. At the time of the interview, Mr. Summers was probably only a few weeks short of being 81 years old (upload date Dec 18, 2023), his memory might fail him. He might be bad at math. He might not want to accept that he's already playing guitar for more than 70 years, etc. There could be many 'reasonable' or 'unreasonable' reasons for his statement to be false. I'm just suggesting to crosscheck with other reliable sources. I'll do some research myself which I will contribute if something worthy turns up. Korinthus (talk) 17:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I saw that interview, too. A fact like that will necessarily be imprecise and easy to forget as one ages.Vmavanti (talk) 18:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)