Talk:Anglo-Scottish war (1650–1652)/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 08:59, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

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A medal issued to English soldiers who fought at the Battle of Dunbar (1650)
A medal issued to English soldiers who fought at the Battle of Dunbar (1650)

Improved to Good Article status by Gog the Mild (talk) and Girth Summit (talk). Nominated by BuySomeApples (talk) at 17:24, 23 August 2021 (UTC).

Interesting story well told, GA, on fine sources, offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. I am not happy with the hook, formally because while it's in the lead as a summary, it's not in the prose with the ref right behind it, and also because I'm not sure that it is the most attractive thing to say. If we want to connect to something that happened in August, perhaps, we should do it fast. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:57, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
As one of the authors, I'm also unhappy with the hook. '...of Scotland' is somewhat problematic, since the Scots proclaimed him 'King of Britain', which was part of the problem the English had with the situation. I'm also a bit concerned that people working on concurrent DYK and FAC processes may fall over each other in copy editing - this nomination isn't out-of-process, and I thank the nom for the ping here, but I'm not sure I'm over the moon about it. Girth Summit (blether) 21:35, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
How about you word an ALT with a precise fact, possibly an image. - I recently nominated for a new user (an opera), trying to help, and got that DYK is a perversion of their ambitions. - I'll go to bed soon, so you have a few hours ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:40, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt, I'm also on my way to bed, but I'll see if I can think of anything for tomorrow. Girth Summit (blether) 21:47, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
​​Gerda Arendt, how about this:
ALT1: ... that Thomas Fairfax, lord general of the New Model Army, resigned his commission rather than invade Scotland in 1650?
ALT2: ... that Oliver Cromwell superseded Thomas Fairfax as lord general of the New Model Army because Fairfax refused to launch a pre-emptive invasion of Scotland in 1650? Source: It's the Austin Woolrych source cited extensively in the article; this fact is also mentioned in many of the other sources. Girth Summit (blether) 17:26, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Add - image-wise, there's a nice picture of Cromwell used in the article, which could illustrate the second hook. There are a few possibilities at Thomas Fairfax that might illustrate the first one - I like the second one in the article, a line drawing of him riding a fat horse. Girth Summit (blether) 17:31, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for the offers. I formatted them for the ease of the prep builder, hope that's ok. I like ALT1 for brevity, but believe that Cromwell is better known, so worth getting into play. Approving both. I'm not too keen on an image of an individual person when not a biography, but if someone brings one here, I'll look, also at ALTs. An image suggested - no guarantee it will appear - must also be in the article where I see Cromwell but not Fairfax at present. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:28, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the formatting corrections Gerda Arendt - don't know what I was thinking there! I think you're right that Cromwell is by far the better-known figure, and likely to attract more clicks, so Alt2 will most probably be the more successful hook. Take your point about images - would the image linked above, showing a medal given to English soldiers who fought at the battle of Dunbar (with a bust of Cromwell) fit the bill? Girth Summit (blether) 20:12, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Fine, noting that ALT2 is preferred. I wouldn't know how to connect the medal to the hooks. Perhaps let this pass without an iimage, - some other editor will be happy. (Half of the noms come with an image, and only 1 in 8 can be taken.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:37, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Noting that I'm happy for the image to be ignored - coming up with an image to illustrate an entire military campaign, rather than a portrait of a general or a depiction of a particular battle, is challenging. Thanks for your input Gerda, as always. Girth Summit (blether) 20:56, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
ALT1 to T:DYK/P5 without image


End date

This still needs to be resolved. The new title and the lead now state 1652, whereas the infobox has 3 September 1651. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:10, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Good point. Changed. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:41, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, but do we have something to point to that supports the 1652 date?? 2001:558:6017:107:D5B4:958E:C45E:CAE4 (talk) 22:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Exactly. Also, the issues that I raised with the supporting articles still need to be addressed. But at least the fundamental debate over the title is over. Now that we have that settled, we can move forward with the rest. But we do need to resolve those remaining issues before resuming the featured article process. We can't say this article is one of Wikipedia's finest if it is in fundamental conflict with other articles and, in some cases, with itself. 2001:558:6017:107:D5B4:958E:C45E:CAE4 (talk) 19:41, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
I'm really stretched for time at the moment, work-wise. I should have time on Friday/Saturday to address all of the points that you raised in your comments during the move discussion (which I thank you for). Cheers Girth Summit (blether) 21:56, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
No problem. There's no deadline here. Take your time. Just glad to see the points are being taken seriously. 2001:558:6017:107:D5B4:958E:C45E:CAE4 (talk) 22:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Definitely taken seriously. Sorry, I should have responded more fulsomely before now - combination of work being exceedingly hectic, and not wanting to further bludgeon the discussion above (my signature appears a lot on this page...). With regard to the Irish/rest of Britain question, I know that the current wording is supported by Jane Ohlmeyer's work (she's an Irish historian of the period, referenced in some of the citations), including the assertion that Worcester was the last significant conflict. I am assuming that the later dates elsewhere are referring to minor skirmishes/guerilla tactics, but I didn't want to say anything without referring back to the sources - I will do so in due course. Thanks for keeping an eye on this, and please do let me know if you see things that need work as we continue to improve these articles. Girth Summit (blether) 22:27, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, just an update to say that this is on my to-do list, I need a little bit more time to get in front of the sources and write a couple of sentences about the fighting that continued into 1652. Girth Summit (blether) 13:43, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
I've now added a few more words to justify the 1652 end date. Better late than never... Girth Summit (blether) 14:02, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
I've also changed 'last significant engagement' to 'last significant pitched battle', per the IP editor's concerns about Ireland (since the captures of Limerick and Galway happened after Worcester). Girth Summit (blether) 14:14, 16 October 2021 (UTC)


Fleet Peninsula

In the Battle of Inverkeithing section, mention is made of North Queensferry being on the red-linked Fleet Peninsula. It's not a name I've heard before and I can't find other mention of it. The battle's own article refers to it as the Ferry Peninsula, which I haven't heard either but possibly sounds more plausible, containing the so-named village and the Ferry Hills. Does this fairly small headland have a name? Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:07, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

"Fleet" is a typo for Ferry. Well spotted. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:51, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
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