Talk:Aniconism in Islam

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 June 2021 and 1 August 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Chrishaynestemple.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2020 and 7 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jakob1944, FatemehEbrahimi1999, Mhenegar5.

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Ibric's book[edit]

Incorrect. Das Bilderverbots is very unique book with lot of new information like pre islamic tendencies for aniconism in islam etc.

I was eager to read Ibric's book and still think that writing it was a laudable enterprise. So pace Ibric. However there are numerous points that make this publication not very helpful if you are interested in aniconism (which should be the focus of the book), in regard with what you can find elsewhere. An important part of the work explains in which conditions the Arabs lived, what Islam is, what Islamic mysticism is - all this would be fine if it where done on a lesser number of pages that those devoted to questions on anicionism. Most information in Ibric are from other authors, many from pre-1950s publications, some quite outdated (or, not balanced with newer studies). The ideas advanced (particularly on the Bedouin life of Arabs) are simplistic and archaic (you have the feeling of reading somebody living in the 19th century going to explore the wild deserts of Arabia). However brief an introduction to aniconism should be given, where its general aspects could be presented and hints provided to particularities across cultures. Regarding aniconism in the pre-Islamic era, it doesn't bring too much useful data that is not already known. There is also no mention of the existence of strong figurative arts in Yemen (statuary). Given that there are more informative publications on aniconism (Clement, Paret, Goody) we should point to these in an Encyclopedia which should be a reference work. / Abjad 11:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think this work is is first work ever wich handle question of aniconism in islam in philosophical way. There are lot of ideas of philosophicaly views of aniconism in islam and theorys in that book are very unique. Only first part of the book is about pre islamic era, but there is also written about first islamic destroying of pictures/statues wich is for the first time in that book described. And also, the idea of atomism in connection with aniconism. I think this book is the first book ever wich brings us so much information and also the idea about halifa connections with chinese sheg term. so i think you should read this book again and think about philosophical terms in it because the books your menioned are just arthistoric or juristicals disputes about aniconsim in islam.

Shia and Sunni views[edit]

Shouldn't the article mention something about the contrasting views of shia and sunna Muslims? Hakeem.gadi (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the article is already aware that Aniconism is common among fundamentalist Sunni sects such as Salafis and Wahhabis which puts it into some historical perspective, but a more detailed history of the disputes involved would certainly be appropriate. --dab (𒁳) 18:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect parentheses[edit]

There are several unmatched parentheses in the hadith quotes, which makes it impossible to determine exactly which are the words added in translation. Please fix this if you can. -- 92.229.181.234 (talk) 20:24, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hadith quality[edit]

It would be good if the cited hadiths could be marked with how certain they are according to the traditional Islamic scholars. -- 92.229.181.234 (talk) 20:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC) ________________________[reply]

Idols in Judaism[edit]

Christianity has no prohibition against depiction of God? Really? Most Protestant sects will not depict Jesus. Catholic and Orthodox theologians bend over backwards to make the point of why their iconography is not idolatrous. There clearly is, at least, a taboo against depiction of God the Father, and to assert otherwise, let alone without sources, is ridiculous. 81.154.144.194 (talk) 15:38, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What? Protestants don't generally have crucifixes, but there's no prohibition or taboo against depictions of Jesus among mainstream Protestants (maybe Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists or something, but they're hardly representative of Protestantism.) Nativity scenes are common. As far as God the Father -- Michaelangelo and pretty much everyone in the Vatican would be surprised to learn there's a taboo against his portrayal. El Mariachi (talk) 11:37, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aniconism in Christianity and God the Father in Western art cover this, but this is a stale thread. Johnbod (talk) 11:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hilye[edit]

Johnbod, what is the objection to having a paragraph on hilyeler here? It's a notable genre of aniconic Islamic art, and it's not like we're not discussing representations of Muhammad in this article. Cheers, --J N 466 20:12, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a section to Depictions of Muhammad, which is obviously the most appropriate place after hilya, and started a para putting it in the correct perspective for this article - as one of many forms of quasi-representational calligraphy - there are others to add. They are notable, but don't imo deserve a section in an article covering the whole of Islamic history. I note that neither the Arabic nor Farsi wipideias seem to have an article yet. Johnbod (talk) 21:53, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Original research[edit]

Please do not remove the original research section tags from Aniconism_in_Islam#Hadith_and_exegesis_examples until the OR problem is resolved. The section contains editor summaries and claims about the tradition followed by primary source information selected by editors to illustrate those summaries. That is as good of an example of original research you are going to get.Griswaldo (talk) 21:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's unreferenced - any primer on Islam will give you pretty much this selection, as all the many websites do. Unfortunately mine has disappeared for the moment. I hope you noted my point on Jimmy Wales' talk page - let me know how you get on. Johnbod (talk) 21:48, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

John I fail to understand what your comment at Jimbo's talk page has to do with this discussion. Please try to focus on the content of this entry here. As to the claim that it is simply unreferenced that wont fly. It is referenced to primary sources with editor analysis mixed in. That is original research. The answer here is to fix it and remove the tag. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:55, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Examples of aniconic art[edit]

We have one only one illustration of aniconic art, vs. two of figurative art. That doesn't make much sense in an article titled "Aniconism in Islam". Illustrations should illustrate the article topic, not its opposite. --J N 466 01:54, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The topic is the opposite - "an-" without, "icon" images. The subject is the absence of images, not the presence of other stuff, so really it is appropriate. But add a couple by all means - not long ago the article had none at all. Johnbod (talk) 03:09, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To me it's like illustrating an article on non-figurative art with figurative art. I'll have a look around Commons. --J N 466 15:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note the subject is not art but religion. I'll add one - you of course have already added a hilye. Johnbod (talk) 15:42, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Something odd about that image is odd -- it appears rotated by 90°, and compressed, for some strange reason. It's also, if I may say so, not the most sumptuous image. How about something from the Dome of the Rock? And there are some beautiful examples of aniconic arts and crafts in Islamic art that we could use. --J N 466 00:30, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, & the same just happened with another pic I tried. I think your 2 are tather too sumptuous & the detail can't be taken in. Johnbod (talk) 01:45, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, the Dome of the Rock is cited as an example of aniconic art by Terry Allen, in "Aniconism and Figural Representation in Islamic Art". The interior image in particular illustrates the aniconic patterns and calligraphy rather well. Would you really mind if I added it? --J N 466 15:25, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's an optimal illustration - it looks too like a 1930s cinema - but put it in for now. Johnbod (talk) 20:11, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

________________________

Depictions of God[edit]

Depictions of God are forbidden in Christianity. Depictions of Saints exist, but it is prohibited by church law to venerate them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.247.79.160 (talk) 05:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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12/9 Edits[edit]

We are a group of students editors who attempted to improve this article for a class assignment. The following is a brief summary of the changes made to this Wikipedia article. To begin with, the article has been edited for clarity and to make the language more neutral along with the addition of missing or additional in-text citations. A short paragraph on non-figural art forms was added for additional context. Additional citations were added to the circumvention section of the article and information from unreliable sources were removed. For the Hadith section of the article, paraphrased versions of each one have been made to summarize the essence of the idea of each Hadith and to get rid of the large block quotations. Additionally, references for each Hadith including the specific book, page number, and the number of each Hadith was added to provide a more detailed source for each Hadith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakob1944 (talk • contribs) 20:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Refs[edit]

Lutfi, Dina. “The Image Debate: Investigating the Rationale Behind Aniconism in Islamic Arab Societies”. International Journal of Religion, vol. 5, no. 1, Jan. 2024, pp. 264-80, https://doi.org/10.61707/qgqn0d77.

Bookku (talk) 16:42, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Art 353 Art of the Islamic World[edit]

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 14 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): History314 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Majed Eid M Rahimi (talk) 14:08, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of citations[edit]

A sequence of edits including this one in December 2020 removed details from some citations, rendering them useless. Links to sources were removed, as well as archived links, leaving deeply ironic link-less citations such as "Reza Abbasi Museum Archived September 27, 2016, at the [[Wayback Machine]]". These citations are useless to readers and there doesn't seem to be any attempt to justify them. I have replaced some citation details, but there are probably more that need to be copied from that old version of the article. MartinPoulter (talk) 22:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]