Talk:Archie Meets the Punisher

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Today's edits, June 29

I've been working with my colleague User:Ntnon on a couple of other pages, and it's only coincidence that I came to this one (on my watchlist), which he had just edited. I just want to note than I did not touch the bulk of his edits, but only one item having to do with questionable sourcing from a non-journalistic fansite that did not give its source of its claim. I did, however, leave Ntnon's link, placing it under the for-further-reading "External links" section. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

No problem. :o) I understand the reasoning here, and would support it utterly if I could remember where I'd read the - now excised - information professionally. I know that wasn't the best of sources to cite (although I like your compromise of putting it in the links), but I've lost/misplaced/misremembered the better one... ntnon (talk) 02:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words and your understanding. We seem to be crossing paths a lot, and I'm really glad to be working with someone so genial and reasonable in working out what are, ultimately, technical differences in sourcing and phrasing, and not disagreement about content. In fact, I think I may even have been on a panel with Victor Gorelick once where he made an offhand comment to that effect, but that was yeeeeaaaarrrs ago! --Tenebrae (talk) 02:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Archie Meets the Punisher/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TheJoebro64 (talk · contribs) 12:17, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Still waiting for Archie Meets the Hellblazer, but in the meantime I'll review this. Expect comments within a few days. JOEBRO64 12:17, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Infobox/lead

• Listing both humor and comedy in the infobox seems redundant, I'd pick one or the other
  • I agree that it's redundant, but that's done by the infobox parameter. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
• Punisher mistakes all-American teenager Archie Andrews—"all-American" sort of sounds editorialized and colloquial IMO. If you disagree you don't need to do anything about this, but I'd remove it.
  • Looking back at this, I don't think this is an issue actually.
• Although the announcement was initially believed to be a joke—who believed the announcement was a joke?
  • clarified. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Publication history

• Archie Andrews first appeared as a backup feature in the adventure comic Pep Comics #22, published by MLJ Magazines in December 1941. The all-American teenager...—I think WP:ELEVAR might apply here. I'd change "The all-American teenager" to just "Archie" in the second sentence and relocate "The all-American teenager" the first sentence (I'm thinking something like "The all-American teenager Archie Andrews...")
  • done. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
• Believe it or not, The Amazing Spider-Man #129 has its own article. I'd link to it
  • Fascinating! I've added this crossover to the list of homages in that article. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
• The Punisher (Frank Castle) first appeared as an antagonist in The Amazing Spider-Man #129, published by Marvel Comics in February 1974. Fans found the murderous vigilante...—same thing as above. I'm thinking something like "The murderous vigilante Punisher... Fans found the Punisher interesting..."
  • done. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
• Are there any reasons Marvel stopped doing intercompany crossovers for a while? If there are, I think these would be worth mentioning in the background section. I know there were issues that led to an X-Men/Teen Titans crossover being shelved and JLA/Avengers getting stuck in development hell until 2003 but don't know if those are the reasons.
  • I believe it came down to animus between Jim Shooter and DC heads. I suspect Shooter's involvement is the same reason Marvel never did a crossover with Valiant in their heyday. Image wasn't an appealing option for a few reasons. I'm not sure why a Dark Horse or Malibu deal didn't get worked out.

Plot

• To get back at Archie for cancelling their date...—isn't this article supposed to be written in American English? "Cancelling" is British English; it just has one "l" in American (this isn't a biggie as it's a really common mistake, I just wanted to point this out)
  • I think you've pointed that out to me before. I'll learn it one of these days... Argento Surfer (talk) 13:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
• No other comments here, pretty well-written and understandable and doesn't go into in-universe details.

Critical reception

• Everything checks out here

Referencing

• The referencing style seems inconsistent; there is a mix of {{citation}} and just text written in <ref></ref>. I'd be consistent in how you use citations
  • I believe I fixed all of these. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
• I recommend archiving your sources: https://tools.wmflabs.org/iabot/index.php?page=runbotsingle
• I'm not too sure if Dissecting Fiction is reliable, I can't find anything about staff/editorial policies
  • removed. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Misc.

• I think you should be consistent with how you call Punisher. Sometimes he's referred to as "the Punisher", other times as just "Punisher"
  • I tried to watch this. I removed instances of the Punisher except where it's part of a title.
• Image has fair rationale. I'd just add ALT text to the image
  • Alt text added.

JOEBRO64 18:17, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

You forget about me, Joe? Argento Surfer (talk) 15:10, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

@Argento Surfer, of course not! I've been reviewing two other GANs and have been trying to focus on one at a time (this was the last one I picked up). I'll finish this by tomorrow. JOEBRO64 16:34, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

No rush. I'll be offline until next Wednesday. Argento Surfer (talk) 20:19, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Alright, I've done the review. Nothing major, just a few blips. This is a really interesting article, I'd heard of the oddball Archie crossovers before but never really knew the story behind 'em. Nice work. JOEBRO64 20:49, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I believe I've addressed everything. Let me know if anything else needs tweaking. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:52, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

You've done a great job with this article dude!★Trekker (talk) 13:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Seconded. This is good to go JOEBRO64 14:05, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Story's lethality content

As of December 07, 2018 I've been having an argument with user Argento Surfer (talk) about the story's lethality content, specifying the scene at the school dance where Punisher takes on a group of mobsters dsguised as caterers trying to kill Archie Andrews. Argento Surfer keeps arguing (and re-correcting) that the Punisher uses "non-lethal methods" to disable the drug mobsters; but looking at the corresponding pages' contents, I cannot concur. While some external sources listed here also speak of "non-lethal violence", the Punisher's use of a Uzi SMG and clearly (if offpanel) breaking the boss mobster's neck should hardly count as such, as does the final panel featuring the result of this carnage. DanielC46 (talk) 19:38, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

From the article: "The only editorial interference came from Gorelick, who objected to Punisher shooting a thug during a school dance. The scene was changed to have Punisher hit the thug with a cake.[11]"

Also from the article: Comic Book Resources [called] the portrayal of Riverdale as a "bastion of innocence" that needed Punisher's non-lethal protection "brilliant".[18]

From the comment above: "clearly (if offpanel) breaking the boss mobster's neck" - unless it's on-panel, or a character on panel says something like "Oh my gosh! Punisher just broke the boss' neck!", I think this is particularly unclear and therefore OR. Argento Surfer (talk) 19:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

My response: "The only editorial interference came from Gorelick, who objected to Punisher shooting a thug during a school dance. The scene was changed to have Punisher hit the thug with a cake[11]" was clearly meant to be "shooting him on-panel". If one looks closer at the scene, the Punisher was deprived of his gun by Coach Kleats' attempt to tackle him, and with no other option at hand, he resorted to using the cake to blind the mobster, and then break his neck while a horrified Archie looks on - or what else should the "Krak!" sound in that panel signify? All the other mobsters getting shot was not featured on-panel, either, but at the end neither of them looks like being simply k.o.ed by Punisher's SMG bullets. (Or are there any stars or such signifying a cartoon-type knockout shown anywhere on the pic in question?) DanielC46 (talk) 19:56, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Saying that things are "clearly" something doesn't mean they are. Argento Surfer (talk) 20:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Not a feasible counterargument to the subject at hand. Unless you can present something to the contrary, I suggest changing the wording to "taking down" in order to prevent further such ping-pong arguments. DanielC46 (talk) 20:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Since we obviously can't persuade each other, why don't we wait for others to weigh in? Argento Surfer (talk) 20:25, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm in agreement. DanielC46 (talk) 20:28, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

• FWIW I'm on Argento's side. The problem with your changes to the synopsis, as Argento points out, are that they're based on your interpretation of the story (WP:OR and WP:SYNTH). We can only say he killed someone if it's explicitly stated/shown on-panel. JOEBRO64 17:56, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
• Scans of the relevant scene can be found here. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:07, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

If external sources say that he used non-lethal violence, that's what we go with, per WP:VER. If you can provide a reliable secondary source that say's he used lethal force, add it as well. --Killer Moff (talk) 14:03, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Counterquestion: Has any of you actually read the comic? I mean, not just skimming through the pages, but actually read it from A to Z? 15:55, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes. Argento Surfer (talk) 16:05, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I wasn't addressing you, Argento Surfer, but the rest of the readership in general. DanielC46 (talk) 17:53, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

@FunkMonk: I believe you read the story when you participated in the FAC. Would you mind to weigh in on this? Argento Surfer (talk) 18:17, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree we can't ignore what the sources say in favour of our own interpretations, that is the very definition of WP:original research... Statements like "or what else should the "Krak!" sound in that panel signify" are really irrelevant to such a discussion, as it relies entirely on editor interpretation. FunkMonk (talk) 19:31, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

• By the way, Argento Surfer, I was wondering if this will return to FAC again? Would be a shame if the work went to waste. FunkMonk (talk) 04:52, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
  • I'd like to one day, but I'll need to wait until I have the time to commit to responses. Right now my editing time is hit or miss. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:10, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Argento Surfer, I just read Archie vs. Predator II (which is now only mentioned in the intro of the first comic's article), and the writer actually says "Even in Archie Meets Punisher, the only thing that died was Frank Castle's self-esteem" in the foreword. So that should settle things here, I assume? FunkMonk (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

FunkMonk First, I'm sorry you slogged through that comic. AvP II was way below the quality of the first series in my opinion. Second, thanks for that tidbit! It's nice to have an additional source that's at least tangential to primary. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

It was a bit of a mess, yeah, but I wanted to get the last comics before Disney gobbles up all Dark Horse's movie licences... FunkMonk (talk) 20:05, 4 January 2021 (UTC)