Talk:Arden of Faversham

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

University of Massachusetts and computer analysis[edit]

Firstly, the article double cites this, I have deleted the paragraph with less information in it, but changed the links as the one with less information links to the actual U of M website article.

Secondly, the article claims Shakespeare authorship based on "slender evidence", but this is perhaps misleading, for there is evidence both in favour for and against Shakespeare's authorship of the play, but one can argue that "the only reason for ascribing the play to Shakespeare is its merit" (quoted in Max Bluestone, 'The Imagery of Tragic Melodrama in Arden of Faversham). The U of M research may provide convincing evidence either way, but as yet there is no cited peer review of the research, and as per their website they may not necessarily have released the data yet (they're writing a book about it first). It seems hardly scholarly to cite such an article, especially when there are obvious problems such as no standardized text, rather edited amalgamations from the three Quartos. Thus it may well be a case of research showing what the researchers want to show. Will incorperate this into article and perhaps create a new section

Marlowe and Authorship[edit]

The actual murder of Arden had occurred a couple miles from the village of Ospringe, where, at the time of the murder, Christopher Marlowe’s father was growing up. There is a possible reference to Ospringe in Hamlet: Laertes (after being stabbed by his own poisoned sword): 

  "...as a woodcock to mine own springe..."

Woodcock was the name of the printer who published Marlowe's "Hero and Leander" after his death.

The author of "Arden of Feversham" (Marlowe?) changed the name of one of the actual murderers from "Loosebag" to "Shakebag." This might have been a gibe at Shakespeare. "Shakespeare" was subject to phallic puns (one of his biographers mentioned a contemporary with that name who changed his name to avoid the ribald puns - could someone please supply the reference for this?). Shakespeare might have been replying to the Arden author's "Shakebag" when in King John he had King John tell the Bastard to "shake the bags of hoarding abbots" (again there is a possible pun on bags/scrotum). The Shakepeare/Shakebag connection is reinforced by the name of Shakebag's accomplice, "Black Will" (which was the unchanged name of one of the actual murderers) and by the fact that the victim (Arden) was a distant relative of Shakespeare.

Arden (in history and in the play) was murdered while "playing at tables" (backgammon). Christopher Marlowe was killed allegedly in self-defence after allegedly attacking two men (known to historians as low-life spies) while they were playing backgammon. Marlowe allegedly grabbed the dagger of one of the men and tried to stab him with it, but his dagger hand was forced back, fatally stabbing him in the eye. This has some similarity to the way Laertes was killed by his own sword ("as a woodcock to mine own springe"). Also, Claudius had said to Laertes: 

It shall as level to your judgment pierce
As day does to your eye.

In "As You Like It," Touchstone says, 

When a man's verses cannot be understood, nor a
man's good wit seconded with the forward child
Understanding, it strikes a man more dead than a
great reckoning in a little room.

Marlowe's death allegedly followed an argument over a tavern bill (a reckoning) and occurred in a small private room of the tavern. This also echoes Marlowe’s "infinite riches in a little room" in "The Jew of Malta" and is echoed by Laertes' "As for my means, they shall go far with little" in Hamlet. Also, poetry has been praised as the art of expressing great meaning with few words, although I don't know if that idea had been published by the time of Marlowe and Shakespeare.

It seemed to me that Shakebag had a personality similar to that of Falstaff (another phallic pun). Both were amoral, incompetent, buffoonish highwaymen. Falstaff died with a tavern reckoning in his pocket.

A useful reference is Nicholl's "The Reckoning," about Marlowe's death. Although he doesn't explicitly connect Marlowe's death with "Arden of Faversham" or with Shakespeare, he supplies many of the relevant facts. For instance, the fact that, in the Catholic underground, Lord Strange (possibly Shakespeare's first patron) was considered as a replacement for Queen Elizabeth and was code-named "the baker" (Ophelia: "They say the owl was a baker's daughter"). --Ray Eston Smith Jr 20:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


The author of Arden of Feversham didn't change the name of the killer from Loosebag to Shakebag. George Shakebag is the name that's used in Holinshed's Chronicles, the source the playwright was using. If we're going to say that Loosebag was the historical killer's name we probably ought to get a reference for that. Eupolis 17:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Formally the mayor of Faversham[edit]

The article says Arden is/was "formally the mayor of Faversham". It that a typo for "formerly"? If not, isn't the word redundant? Surely the person who's formally the mayor is the mayor. 79.123.57.130 (talk) 12:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Scene 8 Shakespeare[edit]

Jackson, MacDonald P./ 'Shakespeare and the Quarrel Scene in Arden of Faversham', Shakespeare Quarterly, 57.3 (2006), 249-293. Taking Keith Sturgess' remarks that Scene 8 of Arden of Faversham seems Shakespearean, uses LION to search for collocations and phrases in all English drama published between 1580-1600.

Of 132 plays searched, 28 had four or more links to this scene, 18 of which are Shakespearean. The top four are all early plays (2 Henry VI, 3 Henry VI, Two Gentlemen, Shrew). The early date of Arden makes it unlikely that anyone would be imitating or reporting Shakespeare's style. He finds rare collocations and parallels between this scene and Shakespeare, particuarly The Rape of Lucrece. Finally notes that Eliot and Valenza's 1998 tests place this play as inauthentic, but similar to 1 Henry VI. Jackson concludes that the quarrel scene is authentically Shakespearean, the rest of the play probably collaborative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.103.170.174 (talk) 14:16, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Arden of Faversham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Date of death of Thomas Arden[edit]

The article on Thomas Arden states his dates of birth / death are (1508–1550) while this article states that the murder took place 14 February 1551. This seems to be a slight inconstitency. Stykoo (talk) 11:51, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"15 February 1550–1" was added to this article on 12 October 2006 (and changed on 13 November 2006 to "14" – and that should probably be reverted). The 15th is also mentioned at http://www.faversham.org/history/people/thomas_arden.aspx, http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WME733_The_1551_Murder_of_Thomas_Arden_Faversham_Kent_UK, and many other sources, so it seems correct. The year is subject to Old Style and New Style dates, so what the Elizabethans called 1550, we call now 1551. The article on Thomas Arden, created by User:Boleyn in 2013, seems to use the Elizabethan year. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:37, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Arden of Faversham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:30, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Arden_of_Faversham&oldid=1205308853"