Talk:Armenian cemetery in Julfa

Makalp

Redirect the article by removing its content once again and I'm going to report your actions to admin incidents page without prior notice.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Map?

It would be really useful to have a map or maps of the area in question since there are so many countries involved/mentioned. Kmcnamee 09:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

No problem. -- Aivazovsky 12:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Shah Abbas

It was from this area that the Persian King Shah Abbas forcibly relocated between 250,000 and 300,000 Armenians from 1604–05 and resettled them in the outskirts of his capital, Isfahan.

This is ridiculous. Nakhichevan did not have a population of 250 000 at that time, let alone the Armenian one. We discussed this in much detail on Nakhichevan article's talk. Grandmaster 16:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you please actually quote the sources you refer to? Grandmaster 17:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The book sources?--MarshallBagramyan 17:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I assume that those figures (250,000 to 300,000) refer to a region not just a specific city (e.g. Nakhichevan) in general. -- Aivazovsky 17:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. And this is about Nakhichevan. Please show me a source that says that 250 000 Armenians were deported from Nakhichevan region (and not any other place). It is a well known fact that Shah Abbas deported the entire population of the region, which included Armenians, but was predominantly Muslim. Grandmaster 10:29, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

From the fourth citation: Armenians were uprooted during these wars, and, in 1604, some 250,000 Armenians were forcibly transferred by Shah 'Abbas to Iran (p. 44). Can you please show me the sources that say Muslims were the majority in Armenia (which included Nakhichevan) before Shah Abbas' deportation? Even on the opposite side of the frontier, Armenians continued to hold the majority up until the 1820s. The sources only speak about the Armenians being deported. Why is it that this piece of information on the Armenains is always mentioned in sources?--MarshallBagramyan 19:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

This is not about Armenia, this is about Nakhichevan. Any statistics should be specific to the region. Show me a source that says that Shah Abbas deported 250,000 Armenians from Nakhichevan. Grandmaster 05:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Nakhichevan was a part of Eastern Armenia, no one is speaking about the region in current day terms. Two of the sources explicitly say that at least 250,000 Armenians were removed from Nakhichevan, there's no mention of Muslims.--MarshallBagramyan 05:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Show me a spurce that says that. None of them says anything about Nakhichevan. The information should be about the region in question, and not about other areas. Grandmaster 05:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

We discussed this in much detail on Nakhichevan page, and you were involved too. Yet again you include inaccurate info, which makes it look as if the Armenians in Nakhichevan were targeted by Shah Abbas deportation. Here’s another source for you:

Shah Abbas' most renowned deportation was on the pattern B:A, involving both scorched-earth tactics and the capture of a useful population. This transfer had been anticipated by Shah Tahmasb (930-84/1524-76), who in 941/1534-35 retreated before the invading Ottomans, destroying crops and settlements and driving refugees, including Armenians, before him. During his campaign in northern Azerbaijan in 1013-14/1603-05 Abbas destroyed all crops and immovable property and herded the population, sometimes of complete towns like Aqchaqala and Jolfa, "out of harm's way," onto the plain of Ararat (Eskandar Beg, II, p. 667 ff.). The prisoners, who included Turks, Georgians, and perhaps as many as 75,000 Armenians, were then marched southeast. Of the Armenians who survived about 6,000 families (according to some accounts, only 3,000) were settled in New Jolfa, across the river from Isfahan. Others were established on lands around the capital and in the Baktiari foothills; 500 families were sent to Shiraz at the governor's request, chiefly to engage in viticulture (Eskandar Beg, II, pp. 667 ff.; Tournebize; Gregorian, p. 661 ff.). From the shah's point of view the operation was a success: The Ottoman army was obliged by famine and consequent disaffection to retreat from the Aras and winter at Van, and the transplanted communities (particularly that at Isfahan) eventually flourished and contributed greatly to the commercial and economic efflorescence of the later Safavid period. [1]

As you can see, the figure of 250 000 is highly inflated, other sources provide different figures. And here’s Bournoutian:

In the summer of 1604, at the news of an Ottoman counteroffensive, Abbas laid waste much of the territory between Kars and Ani and deported its Armenians and Muslims into Iranian Azerbaijan. Abbas was sure that the Ottomans would not launch an attack so close to winter and according to some sources, demobilized most of his army in the fall. The Ottomans, however, did advance, catching the shah unprepared. Orders went out from Abbas to forcibly remove the entire population residing in the regions of Bayazid, Van, and Nakhichevan and to carry out a scorched-earth policy. [2]

Grandmaster 05:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The Muslims and Armenians were moved from "much of the territory between Kars and Ani and deported its [population] into Iranian Azerbaijan" wherein the pronoun "it" in this sentence does not refer to Nakhichevan. From Bournoutian's book, "According to primary sources, some 250,000 to 300,000 Armenians were moved from the region [Nakhichevan] between 1604 and 1605. Thousands died crossing the Arax River. Many of the Armenians were eventually settled in Iranian Azerbaijan, where other Armenians had settled earlier" (p. 210).

From Ethnohistorical Dictionary, Armenians were uprooted during these wars, and, in 1604, some 250,000 Armenians were forcibly transferred by Shah 'Abbas to Iran., the figure is right on mark with Bournoutian's and it's obvious where it's inferring to.--MarshallBagramyan 05:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

You are distorting the sources. Bournoutian does not say that 250,000 were deported from Nakhichevan, you added the word "Nakhichevan" to his text. And second source does not mention Nakhichevan either. The region simply did not have that much population at the time, let alone Armenian, who were a minority. Grandmaster 05:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Quote from Bournoutian:

Orders went out from Abbas to forcibly remove the entire population residing in the regions of Bayazid, Van, and Nakhichevan and to carry out a scorched-earth policy. Primary sources estimate that between 1604 and 1605 some 250,000 to 300,000 Armenians were removed from the area [not Nakhichevan]. Thousands died crossing the Arax River. Most of the Armenians were eventually settled in Iranian Azerbaijan, where other Armenians had settled earlier. Some ended up in the Mazandaran region and in the cities of Sultanieh, Qazvin, Mashhad, Hamadan, Arak, and Shiraz.

Also note that Bournoutian is an Armenian source, which tends to blow the Armenian figures out of any proportion. Iranica provides different figures. Grandmaster 05:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

When describing the shah Abbas' policy in Nakhichevan, one should bear in mind that he treated Muslims no differently and even worse than Armenians. Another one from Bournatian:

According to one primary source, the Sunnis of Nakhichevan province were killed and their villages were razed by the Safavid army. Grandmaster 06:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Bournoutian cannot be excluded just because he is Armenian since his work is peer-edited by Western scholars. The final quote doesn't even have any relevance to the article. Go back to the Nakhichevan archives and find all the sources used to support the statements on the Nakhichevan Armenians.--MarshallBagramyan 16:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I did not propose to exclude Bournatian, but you cannot include only the figures that you like and ignore others. I provided different figures too. You should cite the whole range and mention that it actually has little to do with Nakhichevan and is related to a much larger area. Also, Bournatian like many other sources says that the entire population of Nakhichevan was resettled. And there are no sources that support the statements you included in the article. No such sources were provided on Nakhichevan discussions either. In fact, it was effectively proven that Shah Abbas relocated the entire population of the region, and it affected not only Armenian people, and even Armenian users had to agree with that eventually. Grandmaster 07:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Another quote:

Yet another important Kangarlu leader during Safavid times was Maqsud Sultan Kangarlu, who is on Eskandar Monshi's list of the great amirs of the reign of Shah Abbas I (p. 1085). Shortly after the Persian capture of Erivan, in June 1604, he was appointed governor of Nakhjavan, north of the Aras river. But when, later that year, Ottoman forces threatened the area, Shah Abbas ordered Maqsud Sultan to evacuate the entire population of the Nakhjavan region (including the Armenians of Jolfa, who, in the following year, were transplanted to Isfahan) to Qaraja Dag (Arasbaran) and Dezmar (Eskandar Monshi, pp. 656, 668).

In 1921, M. H. Valili Baharlu wrote that there were Kangarlu around Gökchay, Javanshir and Shusha (pp. 61ff.). Many of these are undoubtedly the descendants of Kangarlu who were forced to move south of the Aras river by Shah Abbas I in 1604, and were then allowed to return to their original grazing grounds by Shah Abbas II (r. 1642-1666) in an attempt to repopulate the frontier regions of his realm. [3] Grandmaster 12:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Their move wasn't permanent. They were allowed to go back within several years. This was discussed already in heavy detail by Fadix on the Nakhichevan talk page.--MarshallBagramyan 02:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

People of Kengerli tribe were allowed to return after 40 or more years, and nothing is known about others, inlcuding Armenians. The might have chosen to remain in Isfahan. In any case, it is a fact that the entire population of the region was evacuated, so why did you remove the fact from the article? Grandmaster 05:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The Muslims in the region were evacuated, not resettled like the Armenian population. The Soviet Union evacuated Murmansk during the Second World War but the residents were allowed back after the war ended. The Kengerli tribe were on the frontier, right near a military camp there, so they had to be moved a distance away from the war zone, this was why they were not allowed back. You already know this, you and Fadix went over this countless times on the Nakhichevan article.--MarshallBagramyan 16:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

They were deported. Shah Abbas deported the entire population of the region. Read Arakel. I explained that to Fadix, even though he refused to understand. Shia Muslims were deported, and Sunni Muslims of Nakhichevan were massacred. Some sources use the word “deported”, others say “evacuated”, but they apply those words to the entire population of the region.

Here’s from Arakel:

"[Население] собственно города Еревана, Араратской области и отдельных близлежащих гаваров [было поручено] Амиргуна-хану. Шах приказал под страхом меча, смерти и плена выселить [жителей] отовсюду, куда только они могли добраться, изгнать их и не оставить ни единой живой души, будь то христианин или магометанин, согласный [на переселение] или несогласный или нарушитель приказа царя." [4]

I found this translation of the above quote in one quite anti-Muslim book, it is not literal, but more or less close to Russian text:

[Shah-Abbas] summoned his officers into his presence and chose the leaders and administrators of the population from among them, one commandant per district. Emir Guna-Khan was especially put in charge of the town of Erevan, of the land of Ararat and of the small districts in the vicinity. They had for instructions, wherever their power could reach, to hunt down and take away everything – down to the last living dog – either Christians or subjected Muslims; for those who resisted and rebelled against the royal order – the sword, death and captivity.

The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude: Seventh-Twentieth Century (Hardcover) by Bat Ye'or, Miriam Kochan (Translator), David Littman (Translator). ISBN-10: 0838636780

If you indeed care about factual accuracy, you should include accurate info, and not your preferred version. Grandmaster 05:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I have read the discussion, the discussions link Fedayee provided on Thatcher's talkpage dismiss your claims. And please don't accuse Fadix when you know he is unable to answer. Arakel wrote that only the Muslims remained (those Fadix quoted); Arakel wrote that Armenians were prevented to return, he write the few who remained were converted to Islam. In the discussion I saw various published works with the numbers of Armenians settled. Fadix even provided you sources about Armenians sent to China to import merchandise to Safavid Iran as numerous records exist corroborating this.

There was first an evacuation; then they made it permanent by burning and destroying Armenians' villages (Fadix provided you sources about this also). You only provide sources of an evacuation, in the entire debate you and Fadix had, you have not provided a source in which where Muslims were resettled to live there permanently. Fadix provided you works using official documents on Armenian permanency and Iran's policy on the building of Armenian quarters and restricting them to return.--MarshallBagramyan 17:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

There are no sources saying that Muslims remained. Fadix failed to prove his claims. Check the quote from Arakel above, he says that the entire population was evacuated, and that included Muslims, Armenians and Jews. Armenians did not live in any significant numbers in Nakhichevan anywhere outside of Julfa, the other two large settlements of the region, the cities of Nakhichevan and Ordubad were Muslim. And the purpose of evacuation was a scorched earth policy, what was the point in such policy if Muslims were to remain? I provided a large number of sources saying that the entire population was deported, please update the article and include that info. Also the statistics you included are not for Nakhichevan, and they come only from 1 Armenian source. And I don’t see how Armenians being sent to China to import silk is relevant to this article.

From Arakel again:

В 1054 (1605) году восстал Юларкасты. В том же году восстал Али-паша Джанполад, который был эмиром Килисы; усилившись, он захватил город Халеб и, восстав против царя, владел им (городом) два с половиной года. Опять в том же году прибыл в Ереван сардар Джгал-оглы с большим войском. Это было его первое нашествие, когда выступил он против шаха. Именно поэтому шах Аббас первый выселил население области Атрпатакан – армян, мусульман и евреев – [и всех] их вместе погнал в Исфахан – это и есть великий сургун. И опять в том же году, пока Джгал-оглы [сидел], укрепившись, в Ванской крепости, а персидское войско осаждало ее, он вышел через потайные ворота, сел на корабль и убежал в Арцкэ, а оттуда попал в крепость Хнусскую; затем, поехав в Эрзерум, собрал вокруг себя свое войско. А войско персидское, обобрав область Рштуник, ушло восвояси. [5]

The same year sardar Jigal-oglu arrived to Yerevan with a big army. This was his first invasion, when he set out against the shah. That was why shah Abbas the First moved the population of Atrpatakan area (oblast) – Armenians, Muslims and Jews – and drove them [all] together to Isfafahan – that was the great surgun (exile).

So Arakel says that the entire population – including Armenians, Jews and Muslims – was deported to Isfahan. There Shah Abbas created a special quarter for Armenians of Julfa, as he wanted to take advantage of their skills in silk trade. But the deportation affected the entire population of the region. After the Armenians settled in Persian capital and established themselves in the silk trade and enjoyed patronage of Safavid rules, of course they would not want to return to the frontier area, after it was allowed. But it is impossible to say how that affected the statistics of the region, as we have no census figures for Nakhichevan.

Ok, let’s identify what is actually disputed. Do you agree that the entire population of the region was removed, yes or no? Grandmaster 05:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

We're still going in circles. Armenians were not allowed to go back: "He [Shah Abbas] decided to make that [settlement policy] permanent for the Armenians by resettling a large portion of their population deeper in Persia and reorienting them to various cities." (Steinmann, Linda K. "Shah 'Abbas and the Royal Silk Trade 1599-1629" Linda K. Steinmann, Bulletin (British Society for Middle Eastern Studies), Volume 14, No. 1, 1987), pp. 68-74). And Arakel was clear that there were two policies implemented: "they pushed the Christians, to subordinate them under the fire and sword; the Armenians on the middle being destroyed from both sides, the Ottomans from the front and the Persians from the rear" and he repeats many times "on the expulsion of Christian population and the destruction of Armenia." Arakel, once more:

"When he [Shah Abbas] banished the Christians and moved them in Isfahan and its surrounding settlements, many Muslims were evicted from their homes and their houses were given to the Christians. Shah Abbas' words have been kept, and it has been carried out; presently, all the men who were born in Armenia and who were moved to Persia are dead now; and although they have dreamt to return to their country, they were not able to return for the aforementioned reasons or they have not been allowed to do so by the Persians. Although some of them – pious and honest people - wanted to move to Armenia, the Persians haven't made that possible. Shah Abbas used every possible method to force and to keep the Armenians in his country. Had he not tried, the Armenians would never have remained there in the first place. Their sole concern was to convert Armenians under any pretext to Islam...the Persians did everything possible to prevent them [Armenians] to leave their [Persia] country, much like the Egyptians did with the people of Israel."

--MarshallBagramyan 01:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

You still have not answered my question. Do you agree that the entire population of Nakhichevan was deported south of Araks? Yes or no? Answer this and we can move further on. Grandmaster 05:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's some more info from Arakel of Tabriz on the diversed ethnic origins of the deportees:

1. После взятия крепости шах приказал поискать, найти в области Ереванской и согнать в Персию всех странников и чужбинников, сколько бы их ни было, а также людей, освобожденных из плена, будь то христиане, магометане или иудеи, которых ханы сгоняли отовсюду, куда они вторгались за добычей. (...) И приказ этот был немедленно исполнен: сколько ни было таких людей, всех их погнали в страну персов

After the fall of the fortress the Shah ordered to search and find, and gather all strangers and foreigners from the Yerevan province, as many as there were, as well as the freed hostages, be they Christian, Muslim or Jewish driven out of wherever the khans invaded and looted. (...) And the order was immediately executed: however many such people there were, all of them were driven out to the land of Persians. (Arakel of Tabriz, 3:60)

2.в глубине души он понимал, что в [открытом] сражении не сможет противостоять Синан-паше, т. е. сардару Джгал-оглы. Поэтому и приказал выселить всех жителей Армении – и христиан и евреев, и магометан – в Персию чтобы османы, придя, нашли бы страну обезлюдевшей.

In his heart of hearts, he (the Shah - P.) realised that in a [direct] battle, he would not be able to oppose Sinan Pasha; that is, Sardar Jghal oglu. Therefore he ordered all inhabitants of Armenia - Christians, Jews, Muslims - to be deported to Persia so that the Ottomans would find the land depopulated upon arriving in it. (Arakel of Tabriz, 4:61)

The fact is there. The only reason why Arakel does not mention Muslims and Jews in greater detail is because he was an Armenian historian, obviously concerned with the events related to Armenians only. Parishan 07:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it is pretty obvious from all sources, both Armenian and third party, that the entire population of the region was deported. Denial of facts after so many quotes cannot be considered anything other than an attempt to suppress this info, which is not acceptable. As for Armenian population of Nakhichevan, first, we have no statistics for the population of the region at the time, the figures that Marshall included are for much larger region, which Marshal failed to mention. Second, it is hard to judge how this affected the ethnic composition of the region. The population of the city of Nakhichevan was Muslim, according to Arakel and other sources. So Armenians lived in significant numbers only in Julfa. There were a few thousand Armenian families there, which settled in Isfahan.

"Из [числа] армян, переселенных в Исфахан, отделили пятьсот домов и поселили в Исфахане, пятьсот же домов отделили, повели в Ширазскую область и поселили там."

500 Armenian families settled in Isfahan, another 500 settled in Shiraz. That makes about 2,5 – 3,5 thousand people, but not 250 000.

The region remained depopulated for many years, until some 50 - 60 years later the descendant of Shah Abbas I, Shah Abbas II allowed people of Kengerli to return back. Whether this applied to all deported Muslim population we don’t know. As for Armenians, according to Arakel, they got accustomed to their new location, loved it and remained there:

А по наступлении благостной весенней поры назначили начальником над [армянским] населением другого властителя, по имени Абутураб-бек, который снова погнал народ, пока не привел его в город Исфахан. И в том городе разместили и поселили горожан, а селян и крестьян разместили в гаварах вокруг города Исфахана: в Лнджане и Алнджане, в Гандимане и Джлахоре, в Пари и Бурвари. Обосновались они и остаются там по сей день. Ибо старики, переселившиеся из Армении и знавшие прелесть Армении, умерли там, а те, кто родились, были вскормлены и обучены там, привыкли к той стране, полюбили ее и свыклись с ней, так как к этому они были приучены, поэтому там остались и живут по сей день.

Grandmaster 11:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Unilaterally reverting and making drastic changes while discussions are taking place is not recommended. A consensus for anything wasn't reached and yet edits non-agreed upon edits have been made.

First things first. I'm unclear of what you are accusing of denial of. You started by claiming that Muslims were the majority of the population in Armenia; however, you have yet to provide any evidence for that claim. Second, your reply is scattered with conjecture and original research. You claim that it is difficult to ascertain how this affected the ethnic composition of the region. It is for neither of us to assume the end results but the sources are unequivocal when they spell out the end result was the demographic decline of the Armenian population at the benefit for the Muslims.

Third, what point is Parishan even arguing about? Arakel claims that the Armenians were not allowed back and says the settlement policy was made permanent for the Armenians. Where does he even say the same about others? If his highlight of the Armenians was because he was an Armenian, then things become even more complicated when other sources will not do the same; however, they do, and they are now to be considered even more "one sided"?

Helzig even criticizes Arakel on that matter for not having raised the issue of the Armenians because were the central target of the policy. You cannot assume what Arakel was saying, as he states that it was harder later to find any Armenians in that land and claims that only Muslims could be found. From his work, no Armenians remained but the Muslims remained.

You have not provided the several sources you claim to have provided; asides from the Iranica article which speaks of an evacuation (and says nothing about any resettlement of population) and Arakel, this does not amount to the various sources which are published on the permanent resettlement of the Armenians. You have a misunderstanding of policies: we include something if there is proof, evidence, and material. We exclude something if there is evidence that it did not happen. I'm not going to answer any further, the only answers you'll obtain about this is from a RfC filled against you. You are wasting my time.--MarshallBagramyan 16:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The edits I just made should settle the issue. --MarshallBagramyan 17:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Your edits are not acceptable. This article is about Nakhichevan, and not some “plateau”. Arakel does not say that Muslims remained, he says that the entire population of the region was resettled. We provided many quotes from his work, and he says more than once that the entire population of the region was resettled. Do you still deny that the entire population of Nakhichevan was relocated south of Araks, and that included Christians, Muslims and Jews? Yes or no? Grandmaster 04:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the entire population of Armenians was forcibly deported. Your entire baseless and unsourced claim doesn't make sense whatsoever.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 13:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

There is source. And you, at least you should not remove referenced info.--Dacy69 15:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Which you just did by removing Bournoutian's figure. But no matter, I'm not even going to bother reverting and will discuss the rest at the RfC.--MarshallBagramyan 19:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I added more sources to the article in addition to those added by Khoikhoi. If the info is verifiable, it shall remain in the article, no matter if someone likes it or not. Grandmaster 10:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

What on earth has all of the above - the whole Shah Abbas discussion - got to do with an entry about the destruction of historical monuments at Julfa? Meowy 00:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It's just red herring. That section was supposed to have been no more than a few sentences and much of the information in that passage that has been recently added is irrelevant.--MarshallBagramyan 02:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It could still be made a few sentences, but accurate ones, not POV interpretations of history. Grandmaster 11:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Then let's just erase it, or keep it down to a sentence or two, and place a link to the Nakhichevan/Nakhchivan page. Meowy 19:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind, as long as it is POV free. Grandmaster 08:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge

As this seems to be a case of a fork I've redirected Khachkar destruction to this one. Please cooperate in moving useful material from there to here. --Tony Sidaway 01:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Or, alternately, reverse the redirect. Some people editing the other article have said that material present in that is absent in this one, which is a more recent fork. --Tony Sidaway 05:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think this is what should be done. Keeping the fork and removing the original article after 2 AfDs that resulted with keep is not a better solution. Grandmaster 05:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Has this fork ever been listed for deletion? If it has no reason to exist it's probably better as a history merge, which you'd need an Articles for deletion (AFD) discussion for. --Tony Sidaway 05:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The fork has not been listed for deletion, but the other article has been twice. But since that other article has been voted to be kept, I think this one should be made a redirect. There's no reason for its existence, other than a desire of some people to limit its scope to only 1 region and remove any mention of destruction in other places. Grandmaster 05:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It is not even limited in its scope to one region, it is limited in its scope to one site! Meowy 20:02, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Armenian plateau

I checked the article that Eupator provided as a source that Nakhichevan was part of “Armenian plateau”, and it says:

Russian Armyanskoye Nagorye, also spelled Arm'anskoje Nagor'e, mountainous region of Transcaucasia. It lies mainly in Turkey, occupies all of Armenia, and includes southern Georgia, western Azerbaijan, and northwestern Iran.

Nakhichevan is not specifically mentioned. Also, none of the sources about deportation mentions plateau, so it is an original research. I suggest we fix it to make complaint with the sources. Grandmaster 04:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

"Armenian plateau" and its other variants like "Armenian tableland" were widely used in European and North American geographical and geological works published up 'til the 1950s to descibe this part of the World. It does include all of modern-day Nakhchivan. Soviet-period books will have got the term from those foreign books (no Soviet-period geologists would have ever set foot in Turkey). The term has now become somewhat obsolete, given that most of the Armenian plateau is in Turkey and it is no longer officially permitted to use the term there. Meowy 19:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

That's why I suggested to remove this misleading statement, which is an OR: It was from the Armenian plateau (which included Nakhchivan), etc. Also the statistics are not relevant to this region as well. We have no info about how many people were relocated from the region. Grandmaster 08:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Hetoum, provide sources where Armenia's accusations were documented and present us a 3rd party document that can affirm the truth of these allegations. Atabek 13:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Marshall, please do not delete sourced info. Grandmaster 04:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Please explain why that section should remain. It has no relevance whatsoever to the article at all.--Marshal Bagramyan 16:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It is relevant, as the current version creates impression that Nakhichevan was populated by Armenians before the deportation and that deportation affected only Armenian people, which is not accurate. No mention is made of Muslim and other population. That is not acceptable. You keep removing the info time after time without any discussion or consensus. --Grandmaster 04:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

No it doesn't - you're viewing this through a narrow lens of your own perspective and thinking this is the history of Nakhichevan page - which it is not. All the reader needs to know is that Armenians lived there in the region, they were deported, and thus, because of the deportation left their Christian cultural heritage there. That's it, we skip about 400 years of history if you haven't already noticed and jump immediately to Khachkar destruction in Nakhichevan from 1998 to 2005. You can go ask for second opinions on this all you want and they're going to be repeating what I'm telling you right now. --Marshal Bagramyan 04:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

If this is about Julfa in Nakhichevan, then what has “Armenian plateau” to do with it? If you want to provide historical background, why not saying that Julfa had a significant Armenian population before the deportation? This is sourced info and I would not object to this. But inclusion of all the irrelevant numbers and plateau is not justified and I do not agree with it. If you want to ask third party opinion, please ask it. But remember that Khoikhoi restored the info that you deleted with proper attribution of each view. Now you deleted it again without consensus with other editors. --Grandmaster 06:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I am pleased that all the off-topic material on the history of Nakhichevan has been removed. The is a proper place for such material, but just not in this entry. Meowy 15:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Please do not remove sourced info about the info about shooting range being false. IWPR says: However, he was able to see clearly that there was no cemetery there, merely bare ground. Nor was there, as some Armenians have claimed, a military training ground. [6] Another attempt at removal of this info will be considered disruption and reported. --Grandmaster 11:34, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Your whole source is a lie. Its authors are blatant liars who never actually visited the site. I urge you not to push this, or I will substantially rewrite the entire article. Meowy 17:49, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

That is your personal opinion. IWPR is a reliable source. Please do not remove it.--Grandmaster 05:28, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

It is not my personal opinion. The "journalist" in question either lied about visiting the site, or was so ignorant about the subject that he didn't realise he didn't actually visit the site. Meowy 22:05, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Article name change

I'm curious to know if anyone would be opposed to renaming this article to Armenian Cemetery in Jugha or the Jugha Cemetery" (or has other suggestions) since it would be nice to expand a little and focus on the funerary monuments that once stood here.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that is a very good idea. Meowy 21:42, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm just realizing this now: but should the title of this article continue to reflect the town's/cemetery's Armenian name or the more common name and the one used in Azerbaijan of Julfa?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

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