Talk:Armenian language/Archive 1

ARMENIAN LANGUAGE: RELIABLE INFORMATION

To all interested in the subject: There is plenty of reliable information available. At the moment, the article is in a rather appaling state, subject to edititing without cites nor sources and regularly the center of dispute and edit war. I've given up on watching it. IMHO it'd be advisable to request the given material and to edit the article on that basis. --tickle me 17:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Armenian-Georgian alphabet connexion

"A similar script is used for the unrelated Georgian language."

I thought the Armenian-Georgian alphabet connexion has been debunked. What is this sentence referring to? ("similar"). --Menchi 06:57, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

demographic info

I moved the demo-/ethnographic info from this page to the more appropriate Demographics of Armenia page. Ehgil 23:31, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am working on Assyrian/Revision at the moment. I wonder if an Armenian speaker, or someone with a decent Armenian dictionary could help me with the etymology and basic meaning of the word Ասորի, Asori. Thanks in advance. Gareth Hughes 18:03, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A little conflict in the sources I looked at. Asori = Assyrian or Syriac. Not sure which one is correct.

        "Asori" Refers to Assyrian.  "Sooriatsi" refers to Syrian.

Classical Armenian?

The term 'classical Armenian' is used in the text but there is no description of this among the dialects. Is this a historical, literary form of Armenian from which the modern vernacular forms differ (as in classical Chinese, classical Arabic, classical Greek etc.)? If so, is non-classical Armenian possessed of grammatical gender?

"Classical Armenian" is called "Grabar", which is only used in the Armenian Church until now. The two main dialects of modern Armenian come from "Grabar" and both dialects still use a lot of words from "Grabar". The modern dialect of Western Armenian is closer to "Grabar" than Eastern Armenian.

As far as gender, both modern dialects as well as "Grabar" do not have grammatical gender, meaning there is no "he", "she", "his", or "her" in the Armenian language.

Historical Phonology

I wonder, for instance, what the developement of PIE laryngeals in Armenian was. According to Beekes, *H2 and *H3 were preserved in initial positions when followed by */e/.

Vowels

This is what is in the article at this time: "Classical Armenian distinguishes seven vowels: a, i, schwa, open e, closed e, o, and u (transcribed as a, i, e, e, ?, o, and ow, respectively)." The order of those seems wrong, especiallyh where the schwa is. -dveej

The order seems to have been updated, but I'm still wondering about that sentence. It now reads: "Classical Armenian distinguishes seven vowels: a, i, schwa, open e, closed e, o, and u (transcribed as a, i, ə, e, ē, o, ow and u respectively)." There are eight vowels in that transcription. As the u is a later addition, does it not belong? JordeeBec 18:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The section on phonology is very, very basic compared to similar sections in other language articles. I've replaced the English-like phonetic transcriptions with IPA (based on information from http://www.omniglot.com/writing/armenian.htm - I don't actually know Armenian, please correct any mistakes!) and slapped a {{sectstub}} tag on it. Hairy Dude 17:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

This and that

I've been prowling around the Armenian subjects for a few days now. The statement about being related to Phrygian is overly strong; rather, it is best to say attempts have been made to link it to Armenian, but the evidence is so scant that nothing can really be proven.

A little more can be said about historical situation.

1. Armenian has a colossal Iranian language superstratum, so much so it was earlier classed with the Iranian languages; a comparison can be made to what happened in the Maltese language, i.e., a massive relexification. It would seem the ancestral stock was fully bilingual at some point, and very close to being assimilated by Iranian. While it was earlier a part of the centum group, the relexification easily explains its position in the satem group today.
2. The Caucasian sprachbund could be emphasized a little more. Armenian has the most peculiar phonology of all extant IE languages, and this explains it.
3. Certain issues of ethnic solidarity and nationalism get into the discussion of Armenian dialects. Armenian sources tend to emphasize a set of dialects, whereas a more neutral view suggests very ancient distinct languages.
4. Within the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, Armenian had to originate out on the Ponto-Caspian steppe, and one reasonable place to put them would be the Catacomb culture, which would also put them in contact with early Greeks and Indo-Iranians (and thus neatly explain the e-augument, among other things).
5. As for how Armenian got to Armenia, the wreck of the Urartian kingdom would seem to have something to do with it.

Ejectives

On the page Ejective consonant it is claimed that Armenian has ejectives. Is this true? I was under the impression that the consonants usually transcribed [p‘ t‘ k‘] were actually aspirated in Armenian, not ejective. If anyone can confirm or deny, please make the appropriate edit to Ejective consonant. Thanks! --Angr/_{t?k t? mi} 13:32, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

You’re right: those consonants [p‘ t‘ k‘] are in fact aspirated voiceless stops. See for example: Bert Vaux, The Phonology of Armenian, Oxford : Clarendon Press, 1998. - p. 7, p.12. (at amazon.com you can look at the pages I cited). I therefore deleted the wrong sentence from _General Considerations_ [87.137.10.50: that was me - I forgot to log in]. On the page Ejective consonant it is not claimed that Armenian has ejectives, it correctly says: “(Note that a reversed apostrophe represents aspiration, as in Armenian [p‘ t‘ k‘]; this usage is obsolete in the IPA.)” Hollah 13:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, it did say that when I wrote the above message; it's been corrected since then! --Angr/_{t?k t? mi} 18:27, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have checked the changes on that page Hollah 22:48, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I can personally attest to the fact that Modern Eastern Armenian does indeed have ejective consonants, however, it is not the series you mentioned - the aspirates - that is pronounced that way, but the voiceless plain stops. See also an article from the Wieser Enzyklopädie des europäischen Ostens (chapter 3, in German): [1]

Last Monday, three young ladies and a young gentleman from Armenia turned up at a class on Classical Armenian which I attend, interested to learn more about this language (which to them is basically familiar - roughly like NT Greek is to modern Greeks, I'd estimate - if not immediately intelligible, due to its complex syntax; grabar has, after all, been the written language in Armenia until the 19th century, and the modern written language is still relatively similar to it, probably more so than the spoken dialects).

When one of the ladies read a text out aloud, the ejective nature of the tenues was barely audible, admittedly, but apparently they are simply very quiet in this mode, or generally in fluent speech, quieter than in Georgian (I have twice spotted people speaking Georgian on the subway, thanks to this feature), or in indigenous American languages, for that matter.

However, when I directly asked the Armenians and discussed the matter with them, it became immediately clear that I had not been hallucinating, and they pronounced the ejectives much more clearly.

They pointed out that in the modern language, the three series of stops are neutralised at the ends of words, with only the aspirates appearing there.

Also, they mentioned that Modern Eastern Armenian alone has 22 dialects ("at least", they added), at least some of them being almost unintelligible to them ("just like in Germany"; I presume that their own dialects are relative close to the standard). This is, by the way, yet another example for how little linguistic differences mean in the conventional classification of varieties as languages vs. dialects.

By the way, there are reasons to think that the voiceless plain stops were glottalized already before the breakup of Western and Eastern Armenian, such as, if they had been simply plain stops, they would have merged with the voiced stops that became voiceless in Western Armenian and could not have become voiced there. Or, if they had become voiced first, they would have merged with the voiced stops, too.

So, there you have it, right from the Armenian's mouth, so to speak. Florian Blaschke 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Is modern Armenian typologically much closer to Turkish?

As Hans K. Vogt sums up in the 1997 Britannica, "Whereas Old Armenian was rather close to ancient Greek in many respects, Modern Armenian is typologically much closer to Turkish". This claim should be contested since Persia (modern Iran) and Armenia have been neighbors and coexisted for 2500 years, whereas Turkish Language is a relatively newcomer to the region (around 1000 A.D.). {bold=deleted}

Contesting the claim infers only an assumption, which is not backed up authoritatively here. Besides, the reasoning is logically unpersuasive: if it does prove anything at all linguistically, the proximity makes a closer relationship with Persia more likely than it does towards Turkey - only to the layman anyway. What ephemeral geographical ties with the Greek mainland existed, had been severed after osman invasion, and older possible phases of proximity to proto Greek people are even more distant. The invasion was followed by the cited 1000 years of neighbouring or ethnically mixed regions, which makes Vogt's claim not so implausible, as he is contrasting ancient Greek with modern Armenian. Arguably, modern Armenian's linguistic state is more likely to be influenced by the last millenium's happenings than by preceding eras and, not so arguably, Armenian relations with Turkey have been closer than those with Persia in the last 1000 years - lastly much to Armenia's detriment. Anyway, please feel free to contest, I'm just inferring and understand Armenian sensibilities on the issue, but please do research and cite sources.

On a somewhat unrelated note: a layman and non Armenian speaker myself, I just listened to some Armenian sound files before reading the article and couldn't help to be -unexpectedly- remembered of Greek ...and Turkish. --Tickle me 04:22, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Changes of 6/8 October 2005

These changes

05:07, 8 October 2005 68.101.111.161 (General considerations)
05:03, 8 October 2005 68.101.111.161 (Grammar)
02:43, 6 October 2005 68.160.251.11 (minor technical corrections)
02:39, 6 October 2005 68.160.251.11 (minor technical corrections)
02:21, 6 October 2005 68.160.251.11 (General considerations)

added little and deleted references to foreign influence to the Armenian language without citing any sources. This is not the place for promoting nationalism. Turkish and other languages' linguistic influences don't demean the Armenian Genocide nor do they endanger the Armenian Republic's existence. They should be reverted to [2] or corrected. --Tickle me 16:52, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I reverted it, I think it is safe to affirm, that major changes such as the one made by this anonymous user, should be reverted back until he start using the talk page and justify them, and this in accordance to Neutral point of view policy. This article needs a review, to conform to Wikipedia high standard. But I don't have much time for now. It is obvious that any languages in the world, without exception, have been influenced by others, even though, the Britannica 1997 entry refers more to Western Armenian, it still is true for Western Armenian, and there is no reason to delete such informations, or introduce an editors conteranswer POV, as the anonymous user has already done. Also Tickle me, sometimes pay attention when important changes are made, or considerable materials are added, if there is no copyright infrigement, since some anonymous users copypast materials. Fadix 18:50, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, some of this anonymous changes were relevant, but this does not justify without a justification. Fadix 18:53, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Open any linguistics book, Noam Chomsky comes to mind, and you can look at the Armenian language and some facts, not opinions. Why don't YOU stop deleting articles I research to put together, it is insame to keep coming back to see your propaganda - Armenian is Turkish, Armenian is Persian, Greek, all over it, when any ligitmate research book, including the ones I've used in the top 10 major university I have attended, states otherwise. Keep opinions to your personal websites, as they do not belong in an Encyclopedia that does not seem to be monitored. 68.101.111.161

Nobody claims Armenian to be Turkish, Persian nor Greek, please read the article thouroughly, before you edit. Besides, Fadix and I acknowledged some of your changes to be relevant, but that's not the point; please read what others write on the talk page before arguing.

If Noam Chomsky backs your point, fine: cite the corresponding entries of his work - so far, you never did cite anything or anyone - that's the issue. And citing is not the same as name dropping: it's not enough to claim Noam Chomsky backs you. The Five Pillars of Wikipedia: Wikipedia uses the "neutral point-of-view" ...it means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible. Besides, please read this on fairness and sympathetic tone.

As you seem to be new to wikipedia, you might want to check this too: How to edit a page, Policies_and_guidelines and Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view.

As for the Turkish lexical and phonological influence, which probabely upsets you the most, you may refer to these links: britannica.com and University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, which has even been mirrored by the Armenian Weekly website. Usually, you're free to edit anytime, however, if other wikipedians consider your edits to be controversial, wikiquette requests you to argue here first and to edit later, when issues have been discussed. --Tickle me 02:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed that you deleted these sections of the talk page: This and that and Is modern Armenian typologically much closer to Turkish? Wikiquette considers this to be vandalism: this page is for discussion, not for deleting dissenting views. Anonymous users' IP or registered users accounts may be blocked because of vandalism - please don't do it again, this is quite outrageous. --Tickle me 03:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Did you also notice that all of my articles are gone? I had not even saved a copy and can't research to re-write all the time. If this site is neutral, then WHY IN THE WORLD is there a writer here who keeps comparing the Armenian language...to TURKISH?? Do we need to type the history of Armenians and Turks in this discussion section to explain my point of view? Look at linguistic books, Armenian has developed SEPARATE from all languages, and of all languages, to keep quoting a Turkish sympathetic writer's quote that Armenian is similar to Turkish, and I am supposed to just sit here and leave that false statement alone, while my researched writings get completely deleted, and over and over again get replaced with untrue statements? I don't think so. Where are the moderators? -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.101.111.161 (talk • contribs) 09:09, October 13, 2005 (UTC).^diff

None of your articles is gone, they are all stored in the history, accessible for anyone. ...and I am supposed to just sit here... You are supposed to cite sources and back up what you say, nothing more or less. I called an admin for mediation, I hope he shows up. --Tickle me 10:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I got your note on my talk page, but I'm not sure what exactly I can do. As an admin, I have certain powers (I can block disruptive users or protect pages from vandalism or from content disputes), but I don't have more authority than anyone else. Wikipedia does have a Mediation Committee, of which I am not a member, but I'm not sure how much help they'll be against an anon user. --Angr/_{t?k t? mi} 11:29, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You could tell him to cite verifiable sources, to back up his claims authoritatively before editing, to not delete entries on talk pages, to not edit until disputed issues are resolved, to get knowledgeable about wikirules and about the blocking rules you mentioned on my talk page: ...If he persists after three warnings, let me know and I'll block him.... He doesn't seem to care or understand when I do.

@unknown user 68.101.111.161: Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. --Tickle me 12:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I could tell him to do so, but you already have told him to and he hasn't. Why would he listen to me if he doesn't listen to you? But leave the message at User talk:68.101.111.161. --Angr/_{t?k t? mi} 12:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

68.101.111.161 is vandalizing the talk page

Is two times vandalism of the same page, enough for a block? I really have enough of POV pusher vandals. :( Fadix 22:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I just blocked him for 24 hours. AFAICT that's a unique, static IP for one person, so it shouldn't affect innocent users. --Angr/_{t?k t? mi} 07:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Turkish influence controversy

A few things to consider. There is Armenian spoken by the average joe, be it in the Diaspora or the Republic and there is Armenian spoken by the professors, actors, scientists etc. The former lacks the "turkish influence" while the latter, the street vernacular/slang contains it. This MUST be noted in the article, the current state of the article is inaccurate and misleading since the same thing can be said about Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian, Hungarian etc.--Eupator 18:11, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Fadix: there is two major Armenian phonetics, Western and Eastern Armenians, there is also the old Grabar. While Western Armenian phonetic has been influenced by Turkish, (but more from Ottoman Turkish, which is different to modern Turkish, and had mixtures of other languages like Arabic). Eastern Armenian phonetic has been much more influenced from Persian. In the beginning of the last century, Armenian was classified by specialists as a form of Persian. Zazas, on the other hand, were considered Armenian dialect by some. "Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian" by Diakonoff (Journal of the American Oriental Society, 1985), provides also examples of Urartian influences. I would suggest the book, The Phonology of Armenian by Bert Vaux; Oxford University, 1998.

As Hans K. Vogt sums up in the 1997 Britannica, "Whereas Old Armenian was rather close to ancient Greek in many respects, Modern Armenian is typologically much closer to Turkish". Fadix on that Britannica entry: even though the Britannica 1997 entry refers more to Western Armenian, it still is true for Western Armenian

same thing can be said about Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian, Hungarian: (reciprocal) Turkish typological and structural influence on these languages is commonly explained by the Balkan Sprachbund - except for Hungarian, where Turkish influence relies on other historical and linguistical strata. I don't know if the Sprachbund phenomenon applies to Turkish/Armenian too, following its logic, it should. What's unclear: Hans K. Vogt's quote refers to typology, Fadix speaks about phonology.

Anyway, Vogt doesn't explicitly claim Armenian to be close to Turkish: he claims it is closer (comparative) to Turkish when compared to modern Armenian. Therefore, so far, I don't agree with your assessment. However, your claim about differing Turkish influence on vernacular and standard Armenian should be included once it has been verified.

Fadix is of Armenian origin and knowledgeable about history and linguistics, you may want to ask him. Bear in mind however, that I hate linguistic discussions is his input on the subject, as he is quite busy fighting the Turks, if you allow me some grim humour - I'm dealing with this on DE. Besides, the article is much too short at the moment anyway, feel free to expand. --tickle me 02:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

On the issue of Armenian language and its similarities in Turkish

First of all sorry if I write bad English!

I know by my own knowledge (heard from my grandmother and other people) that we (Armenians) do have some Turkic words. But this applies mainly for a dialect(s) of farmers and lesser literates. My grandmother was of such a farming family. They also know a lot of sayings in Turkish and child games. Not the mention that my grandmother speaks perfectly Turkish. But this is off course expected when your home is occupied by other people. In the case of the Armenians, by the Turks. They off cores had to deal and communicate with this people. It’s the same with the Russian expansion, when all the country’s within the Soviet-Union had to speak Russian as the formal language. But in this case Russian “occupation” didn’t last as long as Turkish (which is still going) So I know Russian very well and mangle Russian words often with Armenian words when speaking Armenian. But this does NOT mean that THE Armenian language looks like RUSSIAN now!! You Tickle me (and maybe Mr. Vogt to) shouldn’t miss the point, this (as I call it Farm-) Armenian is NOT an official Armenian language. It is only spoken by some groups of people and often considered to be very ugly and is not spoken by the higher societies and the mainstream Armenians. I my self have been mocked because of my dialect numerous times by the more literate Armenians including my sister who had studied Armenian language. Also the official language of the Armenian as it is considered nowadays is changing within itself to (like the grammar is adjusting , words are deleted, added etc.. just like in many other country this things happen all the time. Consider the Netherlands ware the grammar has been drastically adjusted recently. I say this because I live there). Just to rid of this impurities. Armenian language might have borrowed words from other languages (especially in the past) I can not argue that, but to state that Armenian language nowadays looks typologically (or phonologically) like Turkish is very much incorrect. Simply because this dialect(s) whare people actually use this Turkish words, are not official Armenian language(s). Off course I would agree on the fact that languages mix and that they could have some similarities, simply because people have always traded in goods to survive. It’s necessary for a society to communicate the best way with others. Language is after all just a human tool of communication. But that statement is just too broad and (in my opinion and in of many others) can’t be stated this way.

Also I do understand Armenian and know Turkish and Greek, and I can surely say Armenian does absolutely not sound like Turkish or Greek, ask Turks or Greeks yourself if you are not sure. By listening to some sound samples you can not just assume these things. When I listen to Chinese, Japanese, Thai or any other Asian language I also have a difficult time to name which one is which. They all sound a bit the same to me, but it surely doesn’t mean that they ARE a like. By quoting just one sentence of just one guy, you give an impression as if Armenian language is related to Turkish or Greek. You might not mean it this way, but if someone would read that part, and not have any knowledge of Armenian language, he or she might just generalize and think that Armenian language is a bit like Greek… or Turkish… I think the main thing is that Armenian language is a very unique one (as far as any language can be unique). This is also one of its most famous aspects. You might also agree that people would be proud of that. I don’t think there is any harm in that as long as they don’t necessarily hate others, but that’s also another issue. What I’m trying to say is that in your text you give a certain impression, that could easily lead to misinterpretation by people who are less familiar with it. This might also be the core of your problem with an Armenian guy. It might be better to state that Armenian language has been influenced by many cultures over the course of its existence (for trading purposes or simply by being occupied), but the official Armenian language has managed to remain relatively unique to other languages (in their surrounding). Or something like that. I also want to thank you for your effort to take time and write about Armenian language. I’m very happy that there are people interested in this ancient and (In my opinion) a beautiful language!!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! (145.97.229.198)

Armenian grammar - Arabic/Chinese

Grammatically, early forms of Armenian had much in common with classical Greek, Arabic, Chinese and Latin.:
deleted Arabic, Chinese as nonsense; if added again, please argue and cite sources. --tickle me 13:31, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Dude where you getting this crap from??? You should cite to!!!! And citing one dude's article aint gonna do it!!! I could site a bunsh of articles of nationalist people or the opposite!!! That doesn't prove anything. Give me an example, why and what part of the grammar looks like Arab or Chinese???.... (145.97.229.198)

The reaction is quite disheartening: "deleted Arabic, Chinese as nonsense". What's equivocal about that? I wouldn't know how to rephrase it for those impaired linguistically or otherwise. I didn't insert this "crap", I deleted it from the article. Shouldn't you know: this is not the article page - it's the article's talk page. The italicised sentence above is a quote from the articles former state, i.e. before my correction, wikipedia manners require you to do so before deletions, though in the case of nonsense it's just a sign of politeness. On wikipedia, all italicised sentences are qotes. You might want to have a cup of tea, dude. Besides, you wouldn't demean yourself getting knowledgeable about wikipedia conventions, before taking part in discussions. --tickle me 17:56, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Cup of tea hahaha, nice!! You must be an Englishman ahha, I won't make jokes about you don't worry. But I haven't edited or deleted anything, so don't worry about that either. I just felt like telling you about my experiences with the language. I would recommend not to take this thing to serious, this is a FREE encyclopedia, it will always be unreliable and (in my opinion) some what lacking the correct information. If any scientist ever would refer to any text on wikipedia, he or she would be mocked upon for a long time. By that I do not mean what you are doing is not impartment, on the contrary, what you do is information for most people who are interested in this language. Therefore wikipedia IS important. And sorry I did not understand what you said, in your previous reply. I thought you meant that someone had deleted Arabic and Chinese, and you ware mad about that. Furthermore, I really DON’T CARE about any RULES on wikipedia!! Just wanted to make that clear. I have enough experiences on discussion boards not to care!! By the way, you still haven't took out the Turkish stuff! At the beginning!!! Again, I'm not intending to change anything you write in the article, I just talk here!!! OO Tea is READY!! ;) (145.97.229.198)

reverting 84.80.210.26/145.97.229.198's edits/vandalism

Let's sum up: Sustaining the thesis of Turkish influence on the Armenian language's typology and phonology are, according to information provided here and in the article page:

• Hans K. Vogt: Professor of General Linguistics, head of the University of Oslo from 1964-69, author of Grammaire du géorgien moderne and chosen by the Encyclopedia Britannica to author the "Armenian language" language entry
• Bert Vaux, Professor of Linguistics, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, esteemed by armeniapedia.org and with quite an impressive academic cv
• registered wikipedia user Fadix, an Armenian from Canada, who has proven to be knowledgeable on the subject (1, 2), doesn't vandalise and is doing his best to fight Turkish nationalism concerning the Armenian Genocide

Opposing it there are, following your contributions on this talk page - and I'm not making this up, though it seems like a parody:

• you, mocked because of my dialect numerous times by the more literate Armenians... (your wording, not mine)
• your grandmother
• your sister, who ridicules your poor command of the Armenian language, see above

Don't get me started about the Turkish nationalist POV pushers I have to deal with constantly, that invariably at some point argue that "their grandmother told them" ...that the Armenian Genocide did not take place (and grampa does too). Your second line is that "What I’m trying to say is that in your text you give a certain impression, that could easily lead to misinterpretation by people who are less familiar with it". Mister: We won't suppress facts, just because not so bright people (like who would that be...?) might not be able to follow. Besides, the text is not mine, I just prevent it form being vandalised - and I'd like to make better use of my time!

Summing up: The article needs lots of correction and expansion (let's be funny: one of the points of inferior importance being, that at the moment, the Turkish influence on phonology is not being mentioned). However, I'm watching about 120 pages and don't have time to edit here, presently - though I could. As it seems, you do have the time, but obviously, responsible editing is not in your ability's scope.

As for this edit of yours:
Armenian it self has influenced some neighbouring cultures. Like Turks at the time of the Ottoman Empire. For about 250 years, from the early 18th century until around 1950, more than 2000 books were printed in the Turkish language using the letters of the Armenian alphabet (St Nersess Seminary, 2005). [3]

that's a fact worth mentioning, but the suitable place is with the Armenian alphabet, provided you rephrase that in proper English - and believe you me: I'll be watching your steps.

However this edit of yours: Mesrop Mashtots is some times also claimed to have invented the Georgian alphabet, Caucasian Albanian and even Ethiopian one. is conjecture and thus not encyclopedic. Anyway, it says so at Mesrop Mashtots, so you may relish in nationalist pride there, as I don't have time to clean up or to monitor that article - ...presently!

You're wasting my time. I'm fed up dealing with Armenian or Turkish nationalism and sillyness. What you are doing amounts to vandalism. This is the first warning of three: Stop it or I'll ask an admin to block your IPs, which happen to be static and blockable so far. --tickle me 06:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Extracts of deleted comment by 84.80.210.26 for others to evaluate (thx to Brian0918):

You don’t know me at all, and yet you seem to know so mutch about me HEHEHE!! I consider it as a compliment!! Don’t forget, you haven’t proven anything to me or any other readers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [...] I could easily say : “like Mr. BANGHOLE Said, Diarrhea is caused by internal conjunction of pancreatic exocrine cells!” HEHEH ahhahahaha (I know I’m a funny guy) ;) [...] ! WEAKK DUDE!!! Hug a rainbow!! [...] Free encyclopaedia my ass!! [...] I will have to do what I must! [...] I have enough IP’s to last this thing a LOOONG time!!! [...] And I AM a resonable person, so IF you have prooven me wrong I would gladly take away my comments and appologise!!! Till then TEEAAAAAAA!!!!!!

These are vulgar insults, this is your second warning. One attempt at mediation: Let the grandmother or the sister of yours which you mentioned earlier look at this and comment. They might show a calmer and more composed attitude. Btw, shouldn't you know: If blocking you isn't successful, the article will be blocked from editing as last resource and be put under admin supervision. --tickle me 06:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Greetings tickle me and others!!

by the way ultimatums, blocking, very professional!! But ok, lets discus this issue first. I’ve been looking into the typology of Armenian language. This is what I found! These below are Typologies of Indo-European Languages.

2.6 Indeling (Introduction) - satem-groep: k> s (silibant) . Indisch: Hindi/klassieke Sanskriet . Iraans (Iranian) . Armeens (Armenian) . Albanees (Albanic) . Baltisch: Litouws/Lets (Baltic) . Slavisch: Pools, Tsjechisch, Slovaaks, Sorbisch(W)/ Russisch, Wit-Russisch, Oekraiens (O)/Sloveens, Servisch, Kroatisch, Macedonisch, Bosnisch, Bulgaars(Z) (Slavic) - centum-groep: k blijft . Nieuwgrieks (New Greek) . Italisch: Latijn + zustertalen, Frans, Italiaans, Spaans, Catalaans, (Italic) Portugees, Occitaans, Gallicisch, Sardisch, Roemeens . Keltisch: Goidelische groep (Gealic: Schots, Iers, Manx) + Brittannische (Keltic) groep (Welsch, Bretons, Cornisch) . Germaans (German) Bron(Sorce):<http://fkserv.ugent.be/filologica/uploads/Inhoudstafel%20Germaanse%20typologie.doc>

I’m sorry it isn’t an English document but a Dutch one. But It still makes the point that Armenian language is a separate one from the others. I can’t find anywhere anything about Armenian being typologically similar to Turkish. Lets discus this issue first before going to block me or not!! I couldn’t respond earlier because I have been blocked (as you know already) for the reason of mass pasting. I didn’t know one could get blocked for that hehe! I used copy/past because I use the spelling control in Word. My English is not that well, as you might have noticed also. But strangely enough is my reply also been deleted. So if anyone is interested in what I had to say look in the green part on http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Armenian_language&diff=28178179&oldid=28152471. I didn’t mean to insult you, I just wanted you to see that what you was doing was blackmailing !! Strangely enough you did manage to pull my sentences from it’s context and present them as if I was cursing or insulting. I say it again, if you have a hard time to understand !! I don’t mean to insult you just think you are wrong by giving me ultimatums and unwilling to discus!! I will change the context in the article again, if no (reasonable) objections are made by anyone!! Also did you gave me green light to put that bit about Turks using Armenian alphabet in the Alphabet aria? O hope some reactions will come from this!!! Hope I won’t get blocked again for pasting hehe. I need spelling control!! --Pensamiento

Objections?

If anyone has objections to my chengings, I'll be more than willing to hear them. Lets descus them scientifically! :) --Pensamiento

I'm sorry but this made no sense: And is the only remaining language from antiquity. The two others, Thracic and Phrygic, are disappeared under the influences of Greek and Latin.. It's Thracian and Phrygian btw. Please elaborate here.--Eupator 00:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

@Eupator, you're right, beside being sub standard English, it's nonsensical.

@"Pensamiento" (¡vaya nombre más adecuado!): fkserv.ugent.be But It still makes the point that Armenian language is a separate one from the others...: This is true as far as historical linguistics go - and the article already states so unmistakably: It is its own independent branch of the family of the Indo-European languages, with no living close relatives....

As for your Vogt quote editing: You deleted repeatedly something that has been substantianted so far. You are not to do so before convincing disputants. You've been told so before. This is you third and last warning. Not only IPs, but accounts can be blocked too. If you ever want to have a say in admin mediations, you need an account with at least 200 edits. You won't get this doing it your ways. I cleaned up your Armenian_alphabet edits, I won't do it again. It was written in sub standard English, as usual. As your English is poor, and you don't give me any reason to be polite about this anymore, you're required to mind this. And I'm not to tell you! If you want wikipedia to care about you, you'll have to care about wikipedia, wether you like it or not. Check the help pages and look for assistance with people that find you less obnoxious that I am compelled to do.

Did you ever look at nl:Armeens or nl:Armeense_alfabet? As of yet, the dutch wikipedia has few articles, and most are of poorest quality, as are those two. Why don't you edit there, at least the language problem won't interfere ...though I'm not so sure about that - but I don't have the time to watch nlWiki too. You're likely to find no resistance writing "whatever" you like, as dutch wiki lacks of editors and admins alike. The same applies to hy:Հայերեն; you may ask your relatives to help you there.

for the reason of mass pasting... hehe: You're supposed to edit, not to copy and paste. Besides not being likely to give encyclopedical results, more often than not, it causes legal trouble for wikipedia due to copyright violations.

Should you decide to stay here, mind the help pages and the links it provides, else you'll find resistance anywhere. Beside, be short, precise and not verbose as you tend to be and as I'm presently. You are new, besides we're required to be as polite as we can with vandals - that's why I write more than I would like. Gravemente dudando que tus pensamientos valgan alguna pena, esperando que se mejore el asunto: --tickle me 04:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, very polite of you calling me a vandal all the time. I think you might have some power issues, maybe! Blackmailing me with you ultimatums, not very nice dude! But I already told it to you and apparently it didn’t help. So I’ll just have to stop correcting you on that. I just assume you are not reasonable and remain hostile to me (and who knows to whom ells). And Don't worry about my Dutch (I write articles for the local newspaper). Also you only talk to me when ever I make changes in the article, so don’t come to me complaining about lack of discussion or me being vandal. Off course I am still willing to discus these issues with anyone. Euraptor I agree, This article really needs more work. And I appreciate the way you disagree with me on an issue. You are probably right about the sentence: “And is the only remaining language from antiquity. The two others, Thracic and Phrygic, are disappeared under the influences of Greek and Latin” being nonsense. So I won’t put it in the article anymore. But these are not my words, I had read it while doing research. I shall do more reasearch to the typology of Armenian language. And when I find good evidence I shall publish it soon.

Also it seem to me, Tickle me, that you don’t respect wikipedia. You are stating that the Netherlands and the Armenian wikipedia is not well, I’m not saying this, YOU ARE. I had enough of your crap really. From now on I won’t listen to you or descus with you any isseu!!! You had to think of this before you repeadadly insulted me not knowing anything of ME!!!!! So your comments to me worth from now on nothing anymore!! Sorry! I have the idea, you will never change your mind! You might learn a thing of two from other users of descusion pages!!!! (nice try translating into Spanish!)

Yess my English is not that well. So I from now on will put info in the descusion page first for people to evaluate (NOT Tickle me , becouse he apearantly has some personaly isseus with me and is not wuilling to look into mather objectivly). I will also apresciate it very mutch if anyone could refrse my posible flowd English ito correct, when I put stuff in the descusio. Or I just ask my other English friends to do so. Anyway I have pased my exames so, I have now loads of time. Hope to contrbute a few things to the knowledge of Armenian language  --Pensamiento

The Vogt quote

It's merely his opinion and the article should stress that. I added "according to". I of course agree that Old Armenian and modern Armenian are closest to Greek; however, sources need to be presented. I hope to do so in the future.

I also changed the sentence below for obvious reasons. Persian is an IE language! To be specific it was the language of the Parthians that influenced Armenian.

"While Armenian contains many Indo-European roots, its phonology has been influenced by neighboring Persia, and Caucasian languages."

This article badly needs more work.--Eupator 00:34, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Eupator: For starters, I reverted the article to the state it had before Pensamiento edited it. I didn't want to wade through this mud. Then I changed the disputed sentence according to your wishes, though I don't think that it was neccessary. New wording: According to Hans K. Vogt's article in the 1997 Britannica.... I hope this is OK with you.

While Armenian is an Indo-European language, its phonology has been influenced by Caucasian languages. I added While Armenian is an Indo-European language,, as you wrote, though I'm pretty sure that the other version is more accurate. As for Persian influence on phonology, I don't agree at all; however, I'm watching 147 pages presently and editing dozens, so I don't wan't to take the time to check sources and discuss, please understand. Please get in touch with Fadix; he's an Canadian Armenian, speaks Armenian fluently and is knowledgeable on its linguistics and history. Check his contributions to Talk:Armenian_Genocide; you may trust him, he's everything but an anti Armenian bigot. --tickle me 05:39, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

This article badly needs more work.: Indeed, feel free do expand. --tickle me 03:50, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Eupator I agree very mutch, that’s why I shall dedicate my time to find out more of Armenian Language. The openion of Vogt isn’t realy adequat, knowing that the offecial armenian has very litle (if not eny) Turkish influence. Also consider that Armenian language is being purifyed nowerdays, by the linguist in Armenia to make it more authentic (to the old one)! The article need much more improovement. I’ll see what I can do! (also you ware right about my first scentence, like I agreed in the previous comment in the Objections? aria)! --Pensamiento

recent changes

To all concerned: Fadix#fighting_POV_at_Armenian_language --tickle me 06:41, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I can live with these changes, though more clearifing need to be made. aspecialy about the influance of Caucasian languages. I know a lot of caucasian languages, so I'll see if I can find anything!! --Pensamiento

Conflict resolution

I just came in here to try to resolve the conflict. I am on a wikibrake right now, and I will remain in a wikibrake for some times. I just am posting, to present a solution to the conflict.

I will be ready to email PDF formats of articles, and I propose that new changes should be made based on those articles so that people could agree for the time being, and having sources that those participating in the changes have access to, helps.

Here are the articles I suggest to email to those interested. I am just listing this for now, I will add more when I come back. Also note that for now, I am not reffering to articles published after the 80s(two exceptions though), because of copyright issues, even thought I will only be emailing them. I may maybe in the future propose to do so, for some articles which I consider important to be mentioned.

Also, if anyone find a title for an article on google that he/she thinks will be important for this article, email your request to me, and I'll see if I can get it. Regards (for the requests, if you want those articles emailed, request it by emailing me, thanks)

• Problems of Armenian Phonology I, by Werner Winter, Language, Vol. 30, No. 2 (Apr., 1954), pp. 197-201

• Problems of Armenian Phonology II, by Werner Winter, Language, Vol. 31, No. 1 (Jan., 1955), pp. 4-8

• Problems of Armenian Phonology III, by Werner Winter, Language, Vol. 38, No. 3, Part 1 (Jul., 1962), pp. 254-262

• On the Placing of Armenian, by J. Alexander Kerns; Benjamin Schwartz, Language, Vol. 18, No. 3 (Jul., 1942), pp. 226-228

• Is Armenian an Anatolian Language? by William M. Austin, Language, Vol. 18, No. 1 (Jan., 1942), pp. 22-25

• The Etymology of Armenian ert'am by Charles R. Barton, Language, Vol. 39, No. 4 (Oct., 1963), p. 620

• 'Initial' Indo-European */y/ in Armenian, by Robert Minshall, Language, Vol. 31, No. 4 (Oct., 1955), pp. 499-503

• Some Effects of the Hurro-Urartian People and Their Languages upon the Earliest Armenians by John A. C. Greppin; I. M. Diakonoff, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 111, No. 4 (Oct., 1991), pp. 720-730

• The Position of Tocharian among the Other Indo-European Languages by Douglas Q. Adams, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 104, No. 3 (Jul., 1984), pp. 395-402

• The Indo-Hittite Hypothesis by E. H. Sturtevant, Language, Vol. 38, No. 2 (Apr., 1962), pp. 105-110

• Adjacency Parameters in Phonology by David Odden, Language, Vol. 70, No. 2 (Jun., 1994), pp. 289-330

• Selected Studies in Indo-European Phonology, by Gordon Myron Messing, Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 56 (1947), pp. 161-232

• Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian by I. M. Diakonoff, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 105, No. 4 (Oct., 1985), pp. 597-603

• The Armenian Aorist by G. Bonfante, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 62, No. 2 (Jun., 1942), pp. 102-105

• Mountain of Tongues: The Languages of the Caucasus by J. C. Catford, Annual Review of Anthropology, Vol. 6 (1977), pp. 283-314

• Statistical Measurement of Linguistic Relationship by Alvar Ellegard, Language, Vol. 35, No. 2, Part 1 (Apr., 1959), pp. 131-156

Fad (ix) 20:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I will also add that instead of jumping on tickle me(who is simply following Wikipedia policies), some here might better serve by starting articles about other Armenian issues, subjects like Armenian Renaissance etc., I will be glad to provide articles for some to read to creat wiki articles. Fad (ix) 21:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I will be ready to email PDF formats of articles...: Fine, I'll mail you. I had no intention to edit or rewrite the article, however, I'll eventually will replace the parts that need it most. Thanks for the comprehensive and well chosen listing. --tickle me 23:48, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Conflict resolution - addendum

I received Fadix' material. I'll send items of this list to anyone interested by mail as well (it's preferable to get them by me), either as single files or as a 32MB zip.

• 'Initial' Indo-European y in Armenian.pdf (618 KB)
• Adjacency Parameters in Phonology.pdf (3.686 KB)
• Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian.pdf (1.067 KB)
• In Memoriam Hans Vogt .pdf (317 KB)
• Is Armenian an Anatolian Language.pdf (500 KB)
• Mountain of Tongues. The Languages of the Caucasus.pdf (3.360 KB)
• On the Placing of Armenian.pdf (413 KB)
• Problems of Armenian Phonology I.pdf (641 KB)
• Problems of Armenian Phonology II.pdf (624 KB)
• Problems of Armenian Phonology III.pdf (1.238 KB)
• Selected Studies in Indo-European Phonology.pdf (6.227 KB)
• Some Effects of the Hurro-Urartian People and Their Languages upon the Earliest Armenians.pdf (1.565 KB)
• Statistical Measurement of Linguistic Relationship.pdf (2.972 KB)
• The Armenian Aorist.pdf (852 KB)
• The Etymology of Armenian ert'am.pdf (120 KB)
• The Indo-Hittite Hypothesis.pdf (740 KB)
• The Position of Tocharian among the Other Indo-European Languages.pdf (1.264 KB)
• Validity of Glottochronology.pdf (8.665 KB)

--tickle me 21:49, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Fadix informes me like so: I forgot to add, that you should clarify on the talk pages that the material won't be provided to more than 5 people for copyright issues. The server I use has clear restrictions, we're doing this in good faith and educational purposes to use it for an encylopedia, this should be made clear. I'll post the nicks of those who get copies. --tickle me 15:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

About Hans K. Vogt

He is one of the initiators of the thesis that language modification is not constent, he published his major research, with Knut Bergsland in 1962, titled: On the Validity of Glottochronology by Knut Bergsland; Hans Vogt, Current Anthropology, Vol. 3, No. 2 (Apr., 1962), pp. 115-153. I will therefore add this article, so, if anyone want it, you may request it by email to me, and I'll sent it in PDF format. After reading his studies, I have a problem, with Britannica allowing him to write articles on languages, for the simple reason as it appears, he gives too much spaces to the theories he himself innitiated. Fad (ix) 21:45, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, since I do not have access to Britannica, I am wondering when the article of 1997 has been writen. Probably Britannica has recycled it over the years, since according to the In Memorian Hans Vogt, published in the International Journal of American Linguistics, Vol. 55, No. 1 (Jan., 1989), pp. 83-85 he died on September 1986, and he was 83 years old. Can anyone having access to Britannica verify? Isen't it funny, that having access to many databasis, I don't have access to it? :) Or perhaps, it's another languist of the same name with the same field of research?(language modification). Fad (ix) 22:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok cool man, I will e-mail you soon for some articles. HEHHE You actualy do it scientificaly here on wikipedia hehehe. I had a diferent idea first knowing that it could be modifed by anyone!! But very nice that you have these articles. I don't have the article of Vogt from Britanica my self, but I also would like to read it my self becouse it sounds really strange that scentence. I mean what is the typology in this case? And in deed it sounds more like some opinion. But ok, I'm actualy surprisd (in a good way) you do it scientificaly here!! NIce!!! --Pensamiento

SEARCHING TO:HO LIVED ISTANBUL FROM ARMANIAN FAMILY

SEARCHING TO:HO LIVED ISTANBUL FROM ARMANIAN FAMILY

HIII;

I AM SEARCHING ARMANIAN FAMILY WHO LIVED IN ISTANBUL.BECAUSE OF THEIR LIE, FAMILY, FAMILY SHEETS, OLD ARMANIAN HOUSE WHICH IN ISTANBUL.. SO THAT IF ANYBODY CAN HELP ME ABOUT IT SEND MAIL TO ME....

EXACTLY FAMILY F THESE FAMILY MEMBERS FROM LAST CENTURY OR NEW GENERATION FROM THEM 1- DIMITRI 2-GEORK 3-ANGELIDIS 4-ANGELIDES 5-ERIH 6-RODI totmel@hotmail.com

'unique' nature of Armenian phonology

A quick comment - sorry if duplicated, didn't have time to read all the discussion:

`Armenian also has many other unique letters not heard in other languages. There are two different "k"s; as well as a letter sounding like a cross between "p" and "b"; two "r" letters, one pronounced with a rolling "r" sound; the letter "gh" pronounced like the French "r"; "kh" a harder pronunciation also found in many Middle Eastern languages; as well as the letters "ts", "tz", "dz", "dch", "uh" like the "a" sound in the word "arrange"; and many more. These are just a few examples that make Armenian a rich and unique language.'

This whole paragraph is false as none of the sounds described are 'unique' in the sense of being exclusive to Armenian. Forgive me if I am wrong, but these sounds are shared with Georgian are they not?

Yes, the individual consonants are not unique, although the entire Armenian phonological palate is quite distinctive. I'll try to rewrite the information on the sounds in Armenian with reference to the International Phonetic Alphabet. — Gareth Hughes 19:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Anatolia is in Turkey, right?

Hi, in the table, which presents the regions of where Western Armenian is spoken, isn't it more accurate to say "Turkey" instead of "Anatolia". Furthermore, isn't it more consistent to include "Turkey" into Asia or Europe sections or maybe to change the name of the "Asia" section to "Middle East" and add "Turkey" into this section wihtout mentioning the cities since in other countries the cities are not mentioned as well. Cansın 6 May 2006

Hi, as Turkey is usually identified with the current Turkish Republic I prefer Anatolia which was a part of the Ottoman Empire. Furthermore Anotolia did not use to have clear borders (it is an old word of Greek origin) and is therefor not exactly the same as the Asian part of modern Turkey. Furthermore it is at least to a certain extent misleading to label territories disputed between the Ottoman Empire and the Russian Empire as “Turkey” (especially when it is sometimes called Western or Eastern Armenia as well). Ulf-S. 22:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ulf-S, when you itemize the countries you used the current names with current borders, Such as Bulgaria, Greece, Romania, Lebanon, Syria, Jerusalem ,Russia..etc. However, when you itemize the cities Istanbul, Bitlis, Van, Marash, Sis (which is Kozan in Turkish) which are located in Turkey you prefer Anatolia? Isn't it kind of incostintent? Moreover, I am really surprised when you say "it is at least to a certain extent misleading to label territories disputed between the Ottoman Empire and the Russian Empire as “Turkey” ". There is no disputed territory between Russia (which is the successor state of USSR) and Turkey since the Treaty of Kars in 1921. It makes me sad to hear "especially when it is sometimes called Western or Eastern Armenia as well". You are talking about eastern part of Turkey, which is called Western Armenia only by some nationalist Armenian fellows. It is quite reasonable to write "Turkey" as one of the countries where Western Armenian is spoken without jeopardizing the legitimacy of the article. Cansın 6 May 2006

The Constitution of Armenia claims Western Armenia officialy not recognizing the current border with Turkey. The government of Armenia also doesn't recognize the Treaty of Sevres or the Treaty of Kars. But that doesn't matter, it should just be replaced with Turkey since all those territories are currently occupied by the country of Turkey and not Anatolia.

Dear Eupator, here is the problem: Treaty of Kars was undersigned by USSR in Yerevan and the government of the Socialist Soviet Republic of Armenia was among the participants (Askanaz Mravian, People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs, Poghos Makintsian, People's Commissar for Internal Affairs). Today's Armenia inherited the Socialist Soviet Republic of Armenia like Turkey inherited the Ottoman Empire. I really don't understand how today's Armenia cannot recognize a treaty signed by its predecessor state. Anyway it is an endless discussion... --Cansın 7 May 2006

As I wrote about the past (before 1918) I used the terms Russian Empire and Ottoman Empire. Of course, Van is in Turkey nowadays -- and there is no serous dispute about it. It is the same when I write about Königsberg before 1871. It was definately not a town neither in the Russian Empire nor Germany but in Prussia. (Nowadays Kaliningrad is definately a town Russia -- and there is no serious dispute about it). I just want to use historical or geographical terms in stead of modern political ones. Ulf-S. 13:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ulf-S, you are using historical and geographical terms only for "Anatolia" not for other countries/regions in the same table. With your reasoning you can write Turkey under Anatolia region. --Cansın 7 May 2006

Armenian in Wikipedia

A guideline on whether or not to italicize Armenian (and all scripts other than Latin) is being debated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Italics in Cyrillic and Greek characters. - - Evv 16:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

English

I only speak English, but can I still contribute?--Craig Thomasian 05:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Direction of Writing

An explicit statement that Armenian is written from left to right may be helpful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PhiDeck (talk • contribs) 14:03, 20 October 2006.

Punctuation

A brief discussion of punctuation symbols and their usage would be useful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PhiDeck (talk • contribs) 14:03, 20 October 2006.

Someone with computering skills!

Hello! Couldn´t someone with some computering skills make a table of the Armenian vowels in IPA and the Armenian alphabet. It verily would improve the symmetrics of the article!

Margaret Mead

Is this worth adding to the article? It is not mentioned on hers, I found it via Google:

"A renowned American anthropologist, Margaret Mead became famous for her studies of the cultures of the Pacific Islands, Russia, and the United States. At one point, she advocated the use of Armenian as a universal language, in part because it includes the sounds of almost all the world's languages and because speakers could be found throughout the world."

I think we can place it under a new Trivia section. Serouj 04:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Q

The article mentions the phrase "Yes sirum em qez", but the consonant table does not give a pronunciation for Q. If this is because of variable orthography, the article should be made consistent. 84.70.192.140 21:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Rigarding my edit

I removed Tacentral, but I saw Tacentral link in Urartu and Nairi pages.I have Artak Movsisyan's book, and I read in his book that he showed a lot of Sanskrit words are in Armenian. Also, 80% of Grabar he mentions is in Armenian. Angine 18:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Guess who added those links? Artak Movsisyan is not a reliable or a neutral source thus he cannot be used anywhere in Wikipedia. Pseudo-scientific and absurd theories are not encyclopedic. There are no "Sanskrit" words in Armenian, there are Indo-Aryan loanwords in Armenian by way of Iranian languages, notably Parthian and Middle Persian.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I know Persian, and there are Indian words in Armenian not found in Persian Angine 18:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful. We're all very happy for you. I know Klingonese.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, there are Indian(Sanskrit) words in Armenian not found in Persian. This explains that Armenians were in the Armenian Highlands much older times Angine 19:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

When a user is blocked from here, HE IS BLOCKED!!! Get the hell out!!! No one doubt you are Ararat arev who's been already blocked. Fad (ix) 21:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Angine, to avoid any future conflict, please try to read and use academic books that are used in the the Armenian language programs of Western universities such as UCLA. Otherwise, the material likely cannot be considered a reliable source in the context of WP:VERIFY. Thanks and keep up the work. Serouj 21:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Georgia-Javaxeti

Why the region of georgia Javaxeti is mantion seperately from Georgia? --Politologia (talk) 15:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Quick Question

The article indicates that Armenian is Indo-European yet it has similarities with Aramaic, which doesn't exactly make sense to me. Can someone help me here. I don't wish to change anything, I really just want to hear someone's take on this. Thanks. Deman7001 21:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay man I'm no expert or anything, but the Armenian language is 100% Indo-European no question on that, the Armenian language has roots expanded to many other languages, but it is for sure. Artaxiad 21:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a mere handful of Aramaic loanwords in Armenian: the two languages are unrelated. Armenian is Indo-European, and Aramaic is Afro-Asiatic. — Gareth Hughes 21:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I've just seen that 'Aramaic' is up there in the lead paragraph, and it has a reference supporting it. I am sure this is wrong. Can someone double check the reference? — Gareth Hughes 21:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• Sigh* thats from a banned user Ararat arev, you can remove it if you like, the person he quotes is no where near reliable. Artaxiad 22:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I couldn't find any credentials on-line anywhere. I'll revert or rework the lead. — Gareth Hughes 22:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm fluent in both Armenian and Greek and have never in my life heard the theory that Armenian is similar to Greek. Also I have in my own eyes seen Armenian manuscripts thousands of years old yet this article entry states the earliest is 5th century? Armenians have existed for thousands of years so has the language. This entry is faulty on many levels and I have never heard of Clarkson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.247.147 (talk) 11:25, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi everyone. I just created an account to respond to this person. Firstly, no one said that Armenian language is similar to Greek language.The page says "Armenian shares a number of major innovations with Greek", which mean they have similar words and such. If you haven't heard about something it doesn't mean it's false, it's just you haven't heard about it. Secondly, there are no manuscripts dating thousands of years, since the Armenian writing system was developed in 5th century. Thirdly, again if you haven't heard about something it doesn't make it false. Please whoever you are, look up stuff before falsely accusing anyone of anything. People who research and write this page, even put their resources at the bottom, so stop being such a lazy person and look them up. Thank you. Trundler 5:41, 4 April 2014

Unprotecting

Indefinite full protection of a Wikipedia article simply isn't acceptable. I've unprotected it and will keep it on my watchlist. If the banned user returns as an IP, the page can be (temporarily!) semi-protected. If he returns with a user account, the account can be blocked. —Angr 15:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Armenian's relation to to other IE branches

Just in case it's not clear, I decided to post here a paragraph from the entry on Armenian in the Encyclopedia of Language & Linguistics:

Armenian belongs to the Indo-European family, and is commonly believed to be most closely related to Greek and Indo-Iranian. (For instance, all three share a prohibitive particle *me: (Greek me:, Sanskrit ma:, Armenian mi) and the imperfect third-person singular augment *e- (as in Greek e-pher-e, Sanskrit a-bhar-a-t, Armenian e-ber ‘(s)he/it carried’). Many more such parallels are discussed in Clackson, 1994.) Because of its many loans from various Middle Iranian languages, especially Parthian, Armenian was thought to be an Iranian dialect until Heinrich Hübschmann demonstrated in 1875 that it was a distinct branch of the Indo-European family. Scholars disagree on how the Armenians came to historical Armenia, the eastern half of present-day Turkey centered around Lake Van and Mount Ararat; some believe they came southward from the Russian steppe, others believe they and the Hittites came eastward from Greece, and others suggest they moved only a short distance from an original Indo-European homeland in the Transcaucasus. It is most likely that this settlement occurred in the second millennium b.c. The earliest mentions of the Armenians occur in the inscriptions of the Achaemenid Persian king Darius (6th century b.c.) and the Greek historian Herodotus (5th century b.c.)

As you can see, the current state of scholarship is that Armenian is a distinct branch of Indo-European, which, while borrowing words from Iranian languages, is not an Iranian language. It is closest to the Hellenic and Iranian branches of IE, but the relationship looks closer than it really is because of borrowings into Armenian from those two branches. — Gareth Hughes 18:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, the bare fact that Armenian shares (unborrowed) words with Iranian languages and Greek is uninteresting and irrelevant to the paragraph in question. All Indo-European languages share words with each other. You might as well say that Armenian shares words with Germanic and Celtic, too. —Angr 18:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Some examples of shared words

English: door, Russian: Dver, Armenian: dur English: cat, Russian: koshka, Armenian: katu English: light, Spanish: lus, Armenian: luys As you can see there are similarities VartanM 18:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

cat is a borrowing in all those languages, not a descendent of an Indo-European root. --Krsont 23:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

In particular the Britannica online does not justify to represent the view of "Linguists" in general. Fortson (2010:383) writes, "Another view that has been gaining prominence regards it as part of a "Balkan Indo-European" subgrouping together with Greek, Albanian, and Phrygian." Moreover, lexicostatistical results generally show Armenian as next relative to Greek (Starostin 2004; Holm 2007/8; Bouckaert et al. 2013; Chang et al. 2015). I correct the article accordingly.HJJHolm (talk) 07:34, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Borrowed vs Shared

Borrowing makes no sense, because if I borrow something I have to return it. Do Armenians have to return the words they borrowed from the Persians? Are the Persians expecting their words back anytime in the near future? Besides I know alot of Persians who use Armenian words daily. So the correct term to use here is sharing. VartanM 18:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The metaphor of "borrowing" loanwords (incorporated into that very word) is the standardly used one; there is no implication that a borrowed word has to be returned, or that loanwords have to be repaid. "Borrowing" and "loanword" are well-established technical terms of historical linguistics; "shared words" is not. —Angr 18:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The term 'borrowed' or 'loaned' is used by linguists, probably because it would not be polite to say 'stolen'. All languages do a certain amount of 'borrowing', or 'stealing'; it's natural. However, old borrowings can be confused as native words, and, thus, the language appears related, or more related, to the language from which the 'borrowing' was taken than it really is. That's the issue here. Now, 'shared' is not part of the technical language of comparative linguistics, so to use it would look rather amateurish. If anything, 'shared' suggests a greater level of cooperation and planned language development than is true in almost all cases. — Gareth Hughes 19:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

There are Armenian words to this day that Persians use to have also, but Persians have ceased to use them now. Im talking about over thousand years ago Persians ceased to use them. There are many cases like this, I had mentioned this earlier. Im saying "Armenian" words, cause to this day we still have those words, but Persians dont use them anymore. It has nothing to do with the conversion by Arab Muslims, cause there are many words that still are shared, but those other words dont exist in Persian anymore, possibly cause of Arab invasion and Arab words are found in Persian now. Alex mond 20:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Borrowed is not correct here, because it shows the lack of knowledge on the topic, since it says determning the history of Armenian is difficult. If its difficult why is it "positive" that "we" borrowed? You see, there are many cases with "root" words identical, which shows the languages had common links, just as the case with the other Indo-Europeans like Indian and Persian. Alex mond 20:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

List of words and references, please. 'Shared' is not the correct word. This argument has no substance to it. Unless you can produce references, you shouldn't push an incorrect wording on the article page. — Gareth Hughes 20:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Some Armenian words descend from a common proto-language to Armenian, Hellenic and Iranian languages (even many to Proto-Indo-European). You could call this corpus of vocabulary 'shared', but the linguistic term is more usually 'common'. Some Armenian words are borrowed from other languages. There is a huge difference between these two sets of vocabulary. However, the age of many of the borrowings often makes them difficult to distinguish from common vocabulary derived from a proto-language. You seem to misunderstand what the term 'borrowed' means in a the context of comparative linguistics. — Gareth Hughes 20:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I told you thats not the case, I said there are "root" words in Indo-Iranian, like Sanskrit, which are identical with Armenian to this day. In fact, those words that I found are used to this day in Armenian, but its the ancient Indian Sanskrit which has ceased from their common daily language. Persians have the same case, many of the words have ceased to be used today. It continued in Armenian, this isnt nationalism, in case one might think, since Im saying we "share" words. Alex mond 20:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Some examples of the root identical:

Armenian git-(gitel or gitakzel) means knowledge Sanskrit gita

Armenian amb-(amboghj) means all Sanskrit amboh

Armenian avid-(avidya silent h) means eternal Sanskrit avidya

Armenian apr-(aprel) means life or living Sanskrit aprana

Armenian mta-(mtazel) means thinking Sanskrit mita

Armenian vich-(vichel or vichoom) means distinguish Sansrkit vichara Alex mond 20:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

All you are doing is sampling Indo-European roots in Armenian. Again, no sources. The text you keep insisting on is this: "Armenian shares many root words with Sanskrit and Persian (both Indo-Iranian) languages as well as with Greek." It is a meaningless sentence: all Indo-European languages 'share many root words': it's called common heritage. Are you taking personal insult in the use of the word 'borrowed'? It is a technical term, whereas 'shares' is not, and it is technically correct. Please read carefully: "Armenian belongs to the Indo-European family, and is commonly believed to be most closely related to Greek and Indo-Iranian. (For instance, all three share a prohibitive particle *me: (Greek me:, Sanskrit ma:, Armenian mi) and the imperfect third-person singular augment *e- (as in Greek e-pher-e, Sanskrit a-bhar-a-t, Armenian e-ber ‘(s)he/it carried’). Many more such parallels are discussed in Clackson, 1994.) Because of its many loans from various Middle Iranian languages, especially Parthian, Armenian was thought to be an Iranian dialect until Heinrich Hübschmann demonstrated in 1875 that it was a distinct branch of the Indo-European family." This is from the work I referenced above. The importance of loanwords in Armenian is the basis of Hübschmann's thesis that remains central to modern scholarly opinion on Armenian. Your edit effectively denies scholarship. Maybe I'll use the 'loanword' in the text as you seem to have a problem with the 'b'-word. — Gareth Hughes 21:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll explain why both "borrowed" and "loanwords" is not correct. Do you see Indian language pages saying that they "borrowed" from Persian? Please do show me that if you can find that. I told you many places which I looked it says we share a common history and heritage. So you realize Indo-Europeans share a common heritage. So if other language pages in same case dont use borrowed or loanwords, why you prejudicing Armenian? Alex mond 21:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Urdu has many borrowed words from Persian, these are quite different from words that come from Proto-Indo-Iranian. It can be quite difficult at times to see the difference between Persian loanwords and common Proto-Indo-Iranian words that just happen to look the same as Persian words because of their common source. You clearly do not understand this important distinction. Academic scholarship writes quite clearly about the presence of Iranian loanwords in Armenian. Their existence is important to the establishment of Armenian as a separate branch of Indo-European rather than an adjunct to Indo-Iranian. I certainly am not prejudiced against Armenian — a badly placed ad hominem argument there — I read Classical Armenian just before Christmas here in Oxford University. The unique status of Armenian is proved by the fact that many of these words are loanwords rather than words of common origin. Hübschmann says they are loanwords, as does Encyclopaedia Britannica: "When the scientific study of Armenian started in the 19th century, the language was considered an Iranian dialect, a mistake easily explained by the vast number of Iranian loanwords in the vocabulary. Subsequent studies, however, have convincingly shown Armenian to be an independent member of the Indo-European language family. According to the Greek historian Herodotus, Armenian was a variety of Phrygian, a tongue presumed to be Indo-European. What little is known of the latter is insufficient to support or confirm such a claim." I think this is pretty clear. — Gareth Hughes 22:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You seem to know a lot about this topic. Since you do, I would like to see if you can understand why there are Armenian words to this day used, that are not used anymore in Persian, probably also Indian use to have also that are not used anymore. You understand my question? Im saying there are tons of Armenians words like 'Arta', like Artaxiad dynasty and many Arta- names which persist in Armenian, but not found in Persian anymore. So if I see words like Arta or Artar which means "righteous", still used in Armenian, why do you think that we borrowed from Persian. Dont get me wrong, I understand clearly what it means to borrow words. I understand that 1000's of readers see it that way, that we are a branch from Persians, not the other way around. Which is totally incorrect. So, please answer me, why do the words persist in Armenian, and very "important" words, like Arta- <---"righteous" in Armenian, but it has ceased to be used in Persian now. I cant think of more of a way to make clear of this. I will also cite my sources with some linguistics, revealing Armenian is the root and the Armenian Highlands. Take the Kura-Araxes culture (Aratta) for example, which shows Indo-European presents in the 3rd millenium BC, and the spread to Northern Syria of a pottery type associated with that movement. There are many records from the 3rd and 2nd millenium BC identified with Armenians also. Please explain to about the "borrowing" of words from Persian, since we use them to this day, but they stopped using these words we still use. Thank you. 75.28.37.201 23:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Im sorry, this just goes to show how everyone has their own type theories, and that history is "incomplete", please admit that. There is more and more to find out about history. I'll leave with that. 75.28.37.201 23:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

When the words of a language descend from a common proto-language (like Proto-Indo-European) they go through quite distinct sound changes. The pattern of these changes is one way of distinguishing in which language a word grew up. One word that has not changed too much in the many Indo-European languages is the Proto-Indo-European root *leuk-. This gives us լոյս (loys) in Armenian, 'lux' in Latin, 'ljus' in Swedish and 'light' in English. In Indo-Iranian languages, the initial *l- of PIE almost always becomes an 'r' consonant. Thus, in Old Persian, this root produces the word 'rauča', meaning 'day'. This is one, of many, signs that Armenian is not as close to the Indo-Iranian languages as it may otherwise seem. So, this is a quick introduction to how different, yet related, languages derive words from a common source. Now, there are a number of words in Armenian that are quite similar to words in Middle Iranian languages. The telling thing about these words is that their pronunciation shows that they grew up in the Iranian languages (with their different system of sound changes). If they were native Armenian words, their pronunication would be very different. Now, these Iranian loanwords (for that is what they are) have been part of Armenian for so long that they have made themselves at home, and feel a quite natural part of the language. This has happened to such an extent that early studies of Armenian did suggest a closer genetic relationship between Armenian and Iranian languages than is actually true. Here is another interesting paragraph from Vaux's entry in the Encyclopaedia of Language and Lingusitics:

In linguistic terms Armenian is notable for its significant divergences from Proto-Indo-European, particularly in terms of pronunciation and vocabulary. Some of the more striking phonological changes are the development of a rich set of affricates (ts, dz, etc.), the loss of final syllable rimes (e.g., PIE *worgjom ‘work’ > Classical Armenian gorts), the change of initial *dw to erk- (e.g., PIE *dwo: ‘2’ > Classical Armenian erku), and the change of original *w to g. Most striking in the vocabulary of Armenian is the rarity of words inherited from Indo-European and the overwhelming predominance of words of unknown origin. Unsurprisingly, native IE words survive primarily in the core vocabulary: mayr ‘mother’ < *ma:ter, hayr ‘father’ < *pater, khoyr ‘sister’ < *swesor, kov ‘cow’ < *gwows, tun ‘house’ < *domos, em ‘I am’ < *esmi. The remainder of the lexicon is drawn primarily from Parthian, and to a lesser extent Greek and Syriac (q.v. Hübschmann, 1895); several hundred and perhaps as many as several thousand words are of unknown origin, most likely having come from Urartian, Hurrian, and other now-extinct autochthonous languages. Armenian also incorporated large numbers of Arabic words following the expansion of the Arabs in the Middle East in the 7th century, and the spoken language absorbed thousands of Turkish words following the arrival of Turkic tribes in Anatolia beginning in the 11th century.

75.28.37.201, the problem is that you do not distinguish between words from different sources. The linguistics involved here is rather more subtle than you, and the others here, realise. That Iranian language might cease to use a certain word that has been borrowed by Armenian is neither here nor there: words appear and disappear in all languages. What is important is the presence of the word during the relevant period of Iranian languages. However, in your posts and those of Alex mond, words are thrown up without any understanding of how common words derived from a proto-language clearly differ from loanwords. — Gareth Hughes 11:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

If you read in your own writings here, it shows you what Im trying to prove here. You mention distinct Armenians words from Hurrian, or other origins(which is really Sumerian words)not found in any modern language, making them unique. So this is what I mean, when you put "borrowed", it makes it seem like our language is just taken all toghether from Persian or Old Persian, it throws the reader off. Another thing is that the Urdu page which you showed me, puts thats part where they borrowed from Arabs and Persians a little further down the page, so this is what I mean can we put that lower down the page atleast? It will certainly help readers understand that we didnt "borrow" everything, making it seem like we just took things from others. I know you dont see it that way, Im talking about many readers misunderstand that sentence. 75.16.81.154 16:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The anon is right about the content being in the top section, as opposed to the other language pages lower down the pages. Can we move it down like the other pages? Alex mond 16:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

This guy has good points, and since Indo-European presents existed in the 3rd millenium BC in the Armenian Highlands, from the Kuro-Araxes culture, it even reveals more that Armenian is possibly much older and that Indo-Iranian is a seperate branch from Proto-Armenian(also known as Armeno-Aryan). T. V. Gamkrelidze and V. V. Ivanov, The Early History of Indo-European (aka Aryan) Languages, Scientific American, March 1990, also support these finds of earlier Indo-European presents, as opposed to other scholars. And to say that this Kuro-Araxes culture had nothing to do with Armenian is incorrect, since these linguistic place the homeland(Armenian language development in 3rd millenium) in the very place of that culture. Alex mond 16:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Everything you said is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. The fact is that a large number of Armenian words were borrowed from other languages rather than being inherited from Proto-Indo-European. That fact (1) in no way impinges on the fact that Armenian is a separate branch of Indo-European, and not an Iranian language; (2) is not demeaning to Armenians, Armenian culture, or the Armenian language (a huge proportion of the English lexicon has been borrowed from other languages too, and it doesn't hurt English speakers' feelings to know that); and (3) has absolutely no bearing whatever on the issue of Kuro-Araxes culture (or vice versa). —Angr 16:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you trying to compare Armenian with English, regarding the borrowings? You cant compare those two, since English, first of all, is not an independent branch of IE, it branches out from Germanic, West Germanic, Anglo-Saxon etc etc, and finally English. Armenian however, is straight from Indo-European, and has no other sub-branches like English. So using that as an example is inaccurate. Garzo, I would like to also mention that a lot is incomplete still, in searching for these answers, as they say its "difficult" to determine how it all turned out. Thus, there are very unique sounds in Armenian, not found in any other Indo-European languages. Ive noticed some of those sounds in Russian, and some other ones in Persian, but Armenian has all those unique sounds from the both of them, and other sounds not even in any of the Indo-European. Making those sounds a total of 8 or 9. Chinese is the only other language that has these sounds, I find that very very intersting, and as I said a lot of history and linguistic study is still incomplete. Not to mention I have a Chinese friend that also know Korean, and he showed me his Chinese words with those unique sounds, that Korean simplified them without those fancy unique sounds. If you can understand what I just told you, you will know that those Sanskrit and Persian words for examples, are taken from Armenian, and simplified without those sounds. I gave you some of the examples earlier, which included those sounds. Alex mond 17:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Modern Armenian is just as far away from Proto-Indo-European as Modern English is. A child is always four generations away from his great-grandfather, regardless of whether he has dozens of cousins or is the only child of an only child of an only child. Likewise, all languages evolve over time, regardless of whether they split into many dialects that evolve into separate languages or not. As for the "very unique" [sic] sounds of Armenian, they don't prove anything either. Even unusual sounds can occur in loanwords. You have to look at the specific histories of specific words to see whether they're loanwords or not, and it isn't always easy. If you have an Armenian word, and you know its Proto-Indo-European ancestor, but the sound changes it went through are typically Iranian and not typically Armenian (like l > r as Gareth mentioned above), then the only conclusion is that Armenian borrowed it from an Iranian language. No doubt Iranian languages borrowed from Armenian too, but since that has no effect on the Armenian language, it isn't relevant to this article. —Angr 18:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes you're right, Persians and Indians also have borrowed words from Armenian. I was just thinking about something else besides what I mentioned above. I realized that there are no surviving ancient records of the Armenian language, like there is of ancient Indian Sanskrit. You see todays Persian and Indian is nothing like ancient Sanskrit or ancient Indo-Iranian. Since thats the case, same goes with ancient Armenian, all these languages, Persian, Indian, Armenian, have evolved from that ancient time of Sanskrit etc. So people are basically using later Armenian, to determine this issue. If we were to use modern Indian and Persian, we might as well realize that the ancient as they claim Indo-Iranian, is some other people then, if thats the case. So Im just saying that there is no records of ancient Armenian, like how there is records of ancient Sanskrit, and that all these Indian, Persian, Armenian, were different in those ancient times, then they are now. My points above also suppose this point, when I said Korean took from Chinese, with Chinese have the unique sounds that Armenian has and no other language, the Korean took and simplified the Chinse words. Same goes with Indian and Persian words, which they borrowed from us and simplified like the Korean simplifying unique sounds of Chinese. Also, the migration of Indians and Persians to the southeast from the Armenian Highlands. There are records of swastika symbols in Armenia, and similarity have been found with Indians and Persian language wise, being with Armenian in the Armenian Highland, then branching off to their eventually land. So we see Indo-European presents in Armenian Highlands from 3rd millenium BC, the Kuro-Araxes culture, which is the exact place of modern Armenia, and some scholars placing the homeland of Indo-European in that location of that culture. Another point is many ancient records indentified with Armenian, like 3rd millenium BC Armani, which to this day Assyrians refer to Armenians by Armani, 2nd millenium BC records of Ermenen, Turks and Kurds refer to Armenians by Ermeni, and on and on. Alex mond 17:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

One more time: this has nothing to do with the issue under discussion. While reconstruction of family relationships among language can be made both easier and more secure by written records, in principle they are not required. If we find (as in Gareth's example above) that Armenian generally agrees with other IE languages in having /l/ in various words, but in certain words it agrees with Indo-Iranian languages in having /r/, that fact requires explanation, and the most parsimonious explanation is that that particular words were acquired from Indo-Iranian and not from the original Armenian word-stock. (It is possible that there could be other explanations - perhaps /l/ did change to /r/ in certain environments in Armenian - but unless somebody can produce evidence for such an explanation the hypothesis of borrowing remains preferable). But this argument in no way depends on ancient writings - it would be valid even if records of Indo-Iranian were younger than those of Armenian, or even if both languages were unwritten. --ColinFine 00:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It appears you answered only about the first half of what I wrote, please read the entire paragraph:

My points above also support this point, when I said Korean took from Chinese, with Chinese have the unique sounds that Armenian has and no other language, the Korean took and simplified the Chinse words. Same goes with Indian and Persian words, which they borrowed from us and simplified like the Korean simplifying unique sounds of Chinese. Also, the migration of Indians and Persians to the southeast from the Armenian Highlands. There are records of swastika symbols in Armenia, and similarity have been found with Indians and Persian language wise, being with Armenian in the Armenian Highland, then branching off to their eventually land. So we see Indo-European presents in Armenian Highlands from 3rd millenium BC, the Kuro-Araxes culture, which is the exact place of modern Armenia, and some scholars placing the homeland of Indo-European in that location of that culture. Another point is many ancient records indentified with Armenian, like 3rd millenium BC Armani, which to this day Assyrians refer to Armenians by Armani, 2nd millenium BC records of Ermenen, Turks and Kurds refer to Armenians by Ermeni, and on and on. Alex mond 02:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I did not reply to the rest of your paragraph because after reading it about four times I still cannot make very much sense of it, or see what relevance it might have to the point at issue. For example

• Even if there are 'unique sounds' that Chinese or Armenian have (a highly dubious proposition), what has that to do with loanwords in Armenian?
• What slightest connection have graphic symbols (swastikas) with loanwords?
• I don't think anybody is in doubt that there were long periods when Armenians were in contact with Aryans. What is your point?

--ColinFine 23:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Whats the point? The point is that "Ar"menians are "Ar"yans, and that those loanwords you claim we took from Persians, I just went through explaning, is not taken from Persian, but the other way around, the examples I gave you here explain this. The Persians which took Armenian words and simplified the sounds, is what I meant with the Korean taking Chinese words and simplifying their sounds of those "words", not other words with sounds but the "very" exact words Persian took and simplified them. Also, the root word for Aryan is the Armenian Ari- or Arin. Just as Iran is Aryan, same with Arin, is Aryan. I also mentioned Ari-yan swastika symbols in the Armenian Highlands from as early as 4th millenium BC identical to the ones in Indus valley, cause that is the home of the Ari- Aryans. And to talk about the root word Ar- and its meaning(s), is a totally different subject, so Im not going to go through that here now. Alex mond 02:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

we understand that this is what you believe. But since you are just a kid trolling Wikipedia, understand that this is completely irrelevant. Learn to understand WP:RS or find another forum for your cranky material. dab (𒁳) 16:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You're the kid who doesnt read the entire discussion, reading a few lines down here doesnt score you points for other readers. And if every single statement needed a reliable source, the people here would have already told me, but since you're selfish behavior thinks otherwise, please leave it with you. The example of the reliable sources not needed, is in one of the examples here, which Colin misunderstood me on a certain statement, and I clarified here. Here that you read only a handful of lines, and not the "entire discussions" Alex mond 17:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Leaving aside the name calling, you did not 'explain' anything. You have (repeatedly) made an assertion which is at variance with all the sources I can remember looking at (I am not an expert on Armenian, so these are somewhat limited). The onus is on you to justify your unusual claims by authoritative reference.

Whether a word survives to the present day or not in one or other language is completely irrelevant to the question of whether it is a loanword. Survival or extinction of words depends on many factors, and is not predictable.

The only thing that can tell you that a particular word is a loanword is if its phonological structure is not consistent with other derivations within the language, but only with those in some other language. Sometimes it is clear that a word must be borrowed; other times, particularly between closely-related languages, it is not so clear.

Of course it is possible that there are loanwords from (pre) Armenian in Indo-Iranian; but to establish such you would need to show that a word occurred in both stocks, but that its form in some I-I language could not be accounted for in the normal development of that language, but only in Armenian. Otherwise the alternative hypothesis of separate developments from a common origin would be preferable. Do you have any examples for which you can show this? --ColinFine 22:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You just stated that your not an expert on Armenian, so I don't need to go further then this. Yes I do have the examples, but I will continue with someone that is really interested and (claiming to be) expert, and who knows a lot about Armenian, possibly Garzo, that I spoke earlier here. Alex mond 01:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

No, please don't. This talk page is for discussing how to improve the article, not for defending one's own original research. You have never denied that there are Indo-Iranian loanwords in Armenian, nor that the presence of large numbers of loanwords has made tracing the linguistic history of Armenian difficult, which is all the article says. The article itself has actually been quite stable on this point over the last few days, since the statement was moved out of the lead. If you're content with the current state of the article, there's nothing more to discuss. —Angr 04:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Angr, Armenian is the root to all Indo European languages, it is the most advanced language and there is no other language like it in the world. The language is thousands of years old and we didn't borrow anything from the Iranians, they borrowed from us. I understand you are jealous and I forgive you but the truth will always be on our side. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lovingangele (talk • contribs) 03:07, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The thing you just said is hilarious. Do you really think that the Armenian language stayed intact while our languages changed for the last 5000 years? Without a canonical script preserving it? I am a Persian and when reading Persian texts of just 1500 years ago it's all "Greek" to me. Speaking of texts of 3000 years ago, they are impossible to pronounce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.183.127.95 (talk) 19:11, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Correct name of Armenian Language

I noticed that at the beginning of the article, it lists the name of the Armenian language in Armenian to be "hayeren lezu." When I was studying abroad in Armenia, my language professor at YSU said that this was incorrect. The phrase "hayeren lezu," is redundant, as the suffix -eren attached to the end of the word already means language. So, the phrase "hayeren lezu" means "Armenian language language." Furthermore, the word "hayeren" is a noun, and as such cannot act as an adjective modifying the word "lezu" according to the grammar of the Armenian language. Armenian is more strict than English in this regard, and in my experience, nouns rarely (if ever) act as adjectives in the Armenian language. The two proper ways to refer to the language are simply "hayeren" or "hayots lezu." I looked this up in my big green Armenian dictionary (Asmangulian and Hovhanissian, "Hayastan" Publishing House, Yerevan: 1984), which confirmed that these are proper ways of referring to the language in Armenian. I only have training in Eastern Armenian, so I cannot vouch for Western Armenian, but I know that in Eastern Armenian "hayeren lezu" is bad grammar. 70.162.244.251 05:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)Erin Hutchinson, student of Armenian language at Arizona State University and Yerevan State University

Adjarian's Armenian dialects Source

I have included information on Armenian dialects from Adjarian. Some cities, I have not been able to identify the modern name, such as Khian. Azalea pomp 03:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Armenian language family

One site, www.krysstal.com/langfams says that Armenian falls within the Thracian language branch, along with the dead languages Dacian, Thracian and Phrygian. I haven't checked other sources but if others might, I propose this heading be changed and that the extinct languages be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parmadil (talk • contribs) 05:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, there is not enough information on Dacian, Thracian or Phrygian for linguists to say with any certainty if they are closely related to Armenian. Many linguists have Armenian and Greek closer to each other than they are to any other Indo-European language. I believe Phrygian would have the strongest link to Armenian than either Thracian or Dacian. Azalea pomp 05:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The latest conclusion I have heard is that Phrygian is a kentum language and *D^h has merged with *D like in Baltic, Slavic, Iranian, and Albanian, for example. So it's not likely that Armenian and Phrygian are related. This hypothesis is generally being abandoned currently I believe. On the other hand, Duridanov claims that Thracian is satem and displays a consonant shift like Armenian. Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

BTW, from simply looking at the soundlaws I've seen on Wikipedia, on Duridanov's website, in the Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture and elsewhere, provided they are correct, it appears more like Dacian is closely related with early Albanian, Thracian with Armenian, and Phrygian perhaps with (non-Greek non-Slavic) Macedonian and possibly further with Illyrian and Messapic. Sounds more realistic to me I must say. Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to mention an important point: Phrygian is supposed to be a kentum language, but is thought to palatalise velars before front vowels, which would account for instances of seeming satem reflexes.

It should be kept in mind that most Indo-European languages exhibit a palatalisation of velars before front vowels that leads to affricates or palatal stops. There are strikingly few exceptions in the modern languages, namely continental Germanic (i. e., Germanic except Scandinavian and Anglo-Frisian), Celtic (Goidelic only exhibits secondary phonemic palatalisation in velars, but also in most other consonants), the Logudorese dialect of Sardinian, Dalmatian (only before e; before i, it palatalises too), possibly certain non-mainstream Greek dialects, apparently Lithuanian (being like Goidelic), and (for extinct branches) at least parts of Anatolian, especially Hittite (but Lycian has palatalisations broadly analogous to Western Romance). Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Latin Words

As this is the Armenian language page, is more than one Latin root necessary to show cognates. It's a bit overkill. Also, please include complete information such as vowel length. Also, always use standard transliterations for languages which do not use the Latin script. -- Azalea pomp (talk) 21:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Orthography Question

Why is it that the letter hiun in the Wikipedia articles is almost always transcribed as w, and ts' as c'? For example, the transcription of the armenian word name is written "anown" or and goodbye as "C'tesowt'iown". Doesn't anyone else feel these to be incredible misleading transcriptions at least as far as pronunciation? "u" or "oo" would be much better replacements for "ow" and "iu" for "iow". KaraiBorinquen —Preceding comment was added at 00:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• Absolutely. All of those references should be removed and re-written using the International Phonetic Alphabet. Please see the Western Armenian language article for examples. Also see the Romanization of Armenian article. Only a few years ago, most computers couldn't display the characters from the International Phonetic Alphabet, and therefore latin characters were used to denote Armenian language sounds understandable to a broader audience. With the development of the Unicode standard and its ubiquity, this has changed and now the IPA may be used to precisely describe sounds in Armenian, rendering the ISO 9985 obsolete. Serouj (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I think all of you are misunderstanding some things. IPA is used to transcribe a language phonetically or phonologically. The ISO and Library of Congress transliterations are used to transliterate/romanize written Armenian, letter by letter. Since this is an encyclopedic article which uses academic sources, we use a transliteration from an official body used in academia. Phonetic/Phonological transcriptions are only needed for the relevant sections of the article. Azalea pomp (talk) 21:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

My belief that the ISO transliteration for Armenian is outdated and impractical notwithstanding, the article as is is entirely misleading. Anyone without a prior understanding of the Armenian alphabet/language will read the pronunciations of these words to be something they aren't. In doing so it compromises the integrity of the article. The truth of the matter is that ւ is only practically used as a "w" sound for foreign words and names, and the rest of the time acts as a "u" modifier. It also provides the false perception that ու and յու are dipthongs and tripthongs when in reality they are only one and two letters, respectively. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.110.204.129 (talk) 06:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Number of people speaking Armenian

The number of people speaking Armenian is 5.5 million according to the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language, a trusted publication of linguistics. You can't always pull numbers from the internet where did you get 6.7 million from? You cannot make up these numbers, the most accurate way to get it is from a university publication book. So stop changing it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.151.124.66 (talk) 13:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is the source for the number: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hye The Ethnologue has the number as 6,723,840. The Ethnologue is used by academic linguistics. Also, the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language has a copyright date of what 1998? Azalea pomp (talk) 22:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

READ CAREFULLY! "Population 3,399,903 in Armenia (2001 Johnstone and Mandryk). Population total all countries: 6,723,840." It's population not number of speakers! MosMusy (talk)

I did the country profile says: Armenia. 2,991,360, but the language article says: Armenian [hye] 3,399,903 in Armenia (2001 Johnstone and Mandryk). Population total all countries: 6,723,840. That is more likely implied speakers as the section is for the Armenian language. Their numbers don't quite add up though. The Ethnologue divides by language, not ethnic group. Ethnologue articles will often state: x number of ethnic group and y number of speakers for that ethnic group. Also, the Armenian diaspora would be larger than 6.7 million. In any event, a 1998 book would be outdated for the number of speakers. Azalea pomp (talk) 22:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

New Language Numbers Source Needed

I will have to check the newest version of the Ethnologue to see if they have new accurate numbers. The online version is an older version. Also, as nice as the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language is, it is 10 years old and thus the numbers would not be accurate for today. Azalea pomp (talk) 17:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Ejectives

From what I've gathered so far, the Modern Eastern Armenian voiceless unaspirated stops are indeed glottalised, but the loudness of the ejective quality varies. In most dialects, including the standard, the glottalisation is barely audible, though relatively best in the affricates. The further you venture north in Armenia, the louder the glottalisation is. In Armenian dialects in Georgia, it is particularly clearly audible. But still, I have read that even the glottal quality of the Georgian ejectives is not perceived by everyone and they are often mistaken for simple voiceless stops. Personally, I can hear the Georgian ejectives clearly, as clearly as those in Amharic, but have trouble with the (standard) Armenian ones.

Generally, though, it is said that Caucasian ejectives are not as loud as ejectives in the languages of the Americas. Certainly, Mayan languages have clearly audible ejectives, from what I've heard myself.

The more notable ejectives of the northern Armenian dialects would not be surprising, given the proximity of, or even continued bilinguality in, Georgian. Ejectives are an areal feature - I have heard that they can even be found in Northern Kurdish (i. e., Kurmanji in Turkey) and Southwestern Turkish dialects, that is, in an area where Armenian was once widely spoken, in Ossetic, in Kumyk, and (in the central northwest of the Caucasus, in the general area of Vladikavkaz and Pjetigorsk) even certain Kosak varieties of Russian!

Whether already medieval Armenian had ejective stops is unknown, though at least if they were present in Middle Armenian, if not also Classical/Old Armenian (given its general high typological similarity to Old Georgian, especially in the phonological system), it might help to understand the Western Armenian consonant shifts. An ejective might become some sort of implosive before passing to a voiced stop (and since a preglottalised voiced stop sounds very similar to an implosive, I suspect this is what Beekes had in mind when he suggested that proto-Indo-European *D was in fact *['D] in his introduction, and possibly elsewhere). It must be taken in account, though, that individual dialects exhibit various other shifts and mergers unlike those in the two standard dialects; so the whole matter is more complicated and I don't have the necessary overview of Armenian dialectology.

As an aside, the voiced quality of the Georgian mediae is not phonologically distinctive and can be missing or reduced/partial, much like in German, for example; the missing glottalisation and aspiration are already enough. Given that old voiced stops became unvoiced in Western Armenian, this might be a relevant observation. Since the voiced stops became aspirated voiceless stops, this might be the reason for the idea that they might have originally have been voiced aspirated stops.

If one knows about the Armenian ejectives and the Georgian system of occlusives that is not primarily based on the voiced/voicedlessness distinction, one understands Gamq'relidze's and Ivanov's glottalic hypothesis a lot better - or at least where Gamq'relidze draws his inspiration from. (I do not endorse the hypothesis, almost all the arguments for it do not hold water, though it may help understanding certain restraints on PIE root structure, there may be a few suggestive Italo-Celtic sound laws, and I can't understand why PIE *t is [d] at the ends of words, though the glottalic theory doesn't really help either: going from what I know from Armenian, one should expect [d^h] or even simply [t]!)

I just noticed that unlike this article, Eastern Armenian does acknowledge the ejectives! What the ... Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes... This article needs to be updated to reflect the ejectives. Also, the Eastern Armenian language and Western Armenian language articles (as well as the article on Traditional Armenian orthography need to be updated to reflect the fact that in Classical Armenian ejectives likely did not exist (according to my investigations). Serouj (talk) 20:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I've heard, the Jerusalem dialect, which branched off very early and is therefore hard to classify (but usually under Western Armenian, I think), does feature ejectives. This seems to indicate that at the time of the separation of the Jerusalem dialect Armenian did have ejectives, so I would be cautious. Unless we find some good source with an explicit statement either way, we should be careful with claims about the precise phonetics of an ancient language. Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Aramaic language#Historical sound changes mentions that Aramaic dialects in the Caucasus have replaced the emphatics with ejectives too, confirming the areal nature of the feature. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:41, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Image nominated for deletion

No notice was placed here that this image has been nominated for deletion. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 22:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC) This one too Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 00:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Other images used on this page may also have been nominated -- please check them all by clicking on them to see if there is a deletion notification on the image page. If there is, use the link that takes you to "this image's entry" to comment on the nomination for deletion. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 00:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Northern Armenian dialects

The article is missing some useful and informative details on a smaller group of dialects belonging to the Northern Armenian division of the Armenian language, but has developed outside of the traditional Armenian homelands (the Northern dialect was in the Caucasian mountain ranges in Republic of Georgia) after the first wave of ethnic Armenian refugees settled throughout Europe from the 10th to the late 18th centuries AD. About 5 dialects of Northern Armenian are said to exist and spoken by at least 100,000 Armenians in sporadic communities in Europe and North America. Here is the compiled directory I came up with:

• 1. Irlandhyren/Celtahyren - In Ireland, where only one known speaker has compiled a vocabulary listing for linguists in the 1990's and perhaps 100 or more fluent in the Irish version of Northern Armenian. About 5,000 Irish Armenians or Irlandehayes live in Ireland, the United Kingdom and elsewhere.
• 2. Canadohyeren/Quebecehyeren - In Canada by 1,000 to 2,000 able to read or speak it in the country, plus a sub-dialect in the Armenian community of Quebec influenced by the French-Canadian dialects of French.
• 3. Norvegaehyeren/Vikingehyeren - Somehow, ethnic Armenians in Scandinavia and northern Germany established this kind of Northern Armenian, but less than 100 are known to continually use it, named for either Norway, Sweden or the Vikings of Denmark.
• 4. Romano-Armenian/Latin Armenian was established by ethnic Armenians living in Italy, France, Spain and Portugal under linguistic influences of the Romance languages, but not as heavily Latinized and about 500 fluent speakers remain.
• And 5. Aravesh or the Armenian American dialect is spoken by 200 to 300 Armenians living in the USA, mainly in the Fresno, California area as most 2nd and 3rd-generation Americans of Armenian heritage have lost contact with their ancestral language and adapted the English language.

I hope there could be additions of the Northern Armenian dialects in future edits of the Armenian language article, although less than 2 percent of the Armenian language is represented by the "third division" in contrast to the larger Eastern and more dispersed Western dialects. + 71.102.32.144 (talk) 12:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The Northern Armenian dialects are located in the Armenian dialects area such as: Tbilisi (Havlabar quarter) and others: Nor Nakhichevan, Rostov-on-Don, Stavropol, Krasnodar, Dnipropetrovsk, Anapa, Maykop, Taganrog, Prymorsk, Novocherkassk, Dneprovskaya, Poland, Bukovina, Transylvania, Hungary. What has not been included are some other dialects of the Armenian diaspora. If you have academic sources for any of these include them. Are most of the Armenian groups from Ireland and Scandinavia settled from after 1900, surely not from the 1500s or 1700s? Azalea pomp (talk) 07:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Nagorno-Karabakh

Country list information has been reformatted based on a continuing Wikipedia policy discussion being conducted elsewhere. The summary of that discussion is that unrecognized "states" should be listed separately and in italics with a note that they are not recognized internationally. (Taivo (talk) 05:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC))

Perfect. Thank you. Serouj (talk) 08:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Armenian language template.

I have created a new template (featuring St. Mesrobs) in hopes that it would do two things: eliminate the 'History of the Armenian language' template and create a visiually appealing link to other articles about the Armenian language. Any suggestions on how to improve the template, I'd be happy to receive ideas or feel free to modify it to improve it. I'd would be great if it was not removed, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Montyofarabia (talk • contribs) 06:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Modify the History of the Armenian language template; don't create a new template that does the same thing... This article is in need of content, not a new template... So please try to focus on content. Serouj (talk) 06:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Armenian Orthography

Adding the Armenian orthography to the table of Indo-European cognates is not a good idea. Since the majority of people reading this don't know the Armenian alphabet, looking at the native orthography in a table where all forms should be equivalent is terribly distracting and obscures the issues rather than enlightening it. It is standard practice in historical linguistics to use transliterated forms in lists of cognates. That practice should be followed here as well. (Taivo (talk) 12:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC))

Great point... I think also we should be using IPA. The examples with Armenian script should go in the Traditional Armenian orthography and Reformed Armenian orthography articles. Serouj (talk) 16:41, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, then I'll add links to Wiktionary directly from romanizations, if that's OK. --Vahagn Petrosyan (talk) 01:36, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Diasystem

Armenian is a typical example of a diasystem, i.e. single genetic language which has two or more standard forms. This sould be explained here.  Andreas  ^(T) 17:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Spelling reform and standardization

According to this diff[4], spelling reform came after the standardization. It is still not clear if the spelling reform affected only Eastern Armenian or both. Also, if standardization of the language occurred in the 19th century, were ther two different standards created at that time? Since when have there been two different standard languages? If somebody knows the answers, they should be put into the articel.  Andreas  ^(T) 02:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

More dialects from Adjarian

Adjarian on his map and text mentions other cities and towns where Armenian was spoken, but does not give them a dialect grouping. I will try to find these and put perhaps a misc. dialects category for the table. Azalea pomp (talk) 01:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Add Arak29 Tools to Resource links

Classical<=>Soviet Orthography Converter http://www.arak29.am/index.php?pt=5 Etymology http://www.envisionarmenia.com/etymology/ Traditional Orthography Primer http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/ Western Armenian Language Textbook http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/ 00:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Add Arak29 Tools to Resource links

Classical<=>Soviet Orthography Converter http://www.arak29.am/index.php?pt=5 Etymology http://www.envisionarmenia.com/etymology/ Traditional Orthography Primer http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/ Western Armenian Language Textbook http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/ 00:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Add Arak29 Tools to Resource links

Classical<=>Soviet Orthography Converter http://www.arak29.am/index.php?pt=5 Etymology http://www.envisionarmenia.com/etymology/ Traditional Orthography Primer http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/ Western Armenian Language Textbook http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/ 00:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Twinta (talk • contribs)

Many (most?) of those resources require an "enrollment key" and external links to closed resources are discouraged in Wikipedia. --Vahagn Petrosyan (talk) 10:21, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Voxsusana, 28 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} How are you(formal) | Vonts ek (ո՞նց եք)

 Inch bes es  

Voxsusana (talk) 18:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. SpigotMap 19:36, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

3 questions: agglutination, Kipchak in Armenian, Armenian in Poland

I noticed that the text does not state agglutination, but in the categories agglutination is listed, and more then once Category:Agglutinative_languages. Also, the article alludes to the change but does not explain why. Agglutination is a main trait of Morphology. Is the sentence Morphologically SOV?

Armenian script was extensively used for Kipchak language, there was a whole Kipchak literature in Armenian script, should not that be noted in the article? Maybe other peoples also used the script? What about other Caucasus tribes, did any of them used the Armenian script? There were 300 languages in the Caucasus, but only 5 scripts. Many of those tribes are described as illiterate, but if they used Armenian script, that would not be true. For example for the church records - births, marriages, deaths etc.

There was considerable Armenian population in Middle Age Poland, but present diasporas does not show Poland. What happened with those Armenians? I would appreciate if somebody who knows would share their knowledge. Barefact (talk) 08:35, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

re: Armenian script, this is already dealt with here: Armenian alphabet#Use of the Armenian alphabet for other languages.

re: Armenian population in Middle Age Poland, this issue is dealt with at Armenians and Armenian diaspora.  Andreas  ^(T) 13:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Andreas, it helps, the Armenian alphabet#Use of the Armenian alphabet for other languages and Armenians_in_Poland are very good for my level. Still, what about the morphology of the language? Were the Kurds the only Caucasians who adopted the Armenian script? And Poland is not listed in the diaspora boxes. Thanks, Barefact (talk) 18:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Iranian theory

The Iranian theory is long outdated and no longer accepted by any mainstream linguist. Standard texts on the IE languages explain why Armenian was thought to be Iranian and how it was discovered actually to be its own branch. Citing linguists such as Franz Bopp (d 1867) as current support for the hypothesis is dishonest. Neither does Lehmann support it: "Armenian stands in the sphere of the Aryan-Balto-Slavic languages between Iranian and Balto-Slavic."

This minority theory that Armenian is a branch of Iranian cannot be presented as fact or as widely held. The NPOV policy allows us to state that specific scholars, who must be named, support a minority theory. The current edits [5] violate this policy. If you wish to add further comments to the article please discuss them here. Further reversions without consensus will be treated as edit warring and may be the cause for a suspension of editting privileges.μηδείς (talk) 19:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The Iranian theory isn't even taught as an aside in historical linguistics classes. Anyone who claims that the Iranian hypothesis is "the most current" is smoking something illegal in the U.S. --Taivo (talk) 20:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

The Iranian theory is still ancient history. The editor wanting it included used a link to a reader of 19th century linguistics as a reliable source. Lehmann edited the reader, but nowhere sanctioned the Iranian hypothesis. Indeed, the article that the link led to was the article by Hubschmann (spelling?) that showed Armenian was not Iranian. --Taivo (talk) 23:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Citing Lehmann is dishonest. He does not consider Armenian a branch of Iranian. He says [6]: "Armenian stands in the sphere of the Aryan-Balto-Slavic languages between Iranian and Balto-Slavic."

If NYisnotbad wants to cite theories of specific notable modern academics and attribute the theories to them, that will be acceptable as NPOV but further reversion of this dishonest and fringe POV statement will be treated as edit warring.μηδείς (talk) 23:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree. One sentence if there is a reliable current source would be acceptable, but an entire section with no reliable sources is not. --Taivo (talk) 23:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The user Nyisnotbad was blocked for one week for disruptive editing.μηδείς (talk) 02:10, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Rask seems to have been the first to say that Armenian was Iranian. Priority in error is not important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.157.208.61 (talk) 13:18, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Baldi asserts (p79) that Armenian was shown to be separate from Iranian as a result of Huebschmann's work identifying the loanwords.μηδείς (talk) 14:48, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

---

Lehmann says verbatum: "Müller's view, that Armenian is Iranian, has not been disproved, and must be designated as the best established and the prevailing one at present."

Why is this being censored? Is it too politically sensitive to dare suggest Armenian is related to Iran or Iranians? In any case, politics has no bearing in linguistics. This is a perfectly legitimate theory espoused by many linguists, as Lehman himself states above, from his 2007 article on the subject.

If you don't agree with the theory, that's fine, you don't have to. But you don't have the right to complete censor the EXISTANCE of the theory. It should be listed as another hypothesis, at the very least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyisnotbad (talk • contribs) 06:13, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

It's not Lehmann who said this, but Hübschmann! 139 years ago! Pay attention to what "at present" means in context: In 1875, this was the best established and the prevailing view! Hübschmann says this right before he writes: "The aim of the following is to investigate whether it is tenable." and goes on to do exactly what had not been done before: disprove Müller's view. Talk about totally missing the point ... --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:02, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Lead

The article lead is far too short and undetailed given the article's length. Please read WP:LEAD. I expanded the lead to add matters which are already covered in more detail in the article, namely its external and internal classification. Aryamahasattva reverted the changes first as being "too detailed" - which is neither true nor compliant with WP:LEAD. Then Aryamahasattva reverted the changes wholesale for nothing other than the accusation that my edits are not in good faith. Nothing I have stated is controversial within the field. That Armenian is related to Greek and Indo-Aryan was already stated - I simply added that the augment and other isoglosses is the reason for the classification. And the internal classification of the third paragraph has nothing to do with edits by the blocked user - it is a summary of points made in the text of the article. These undiscussed wholesale reversions with accusations of bad faith are edit warring. If there is some specific issue that needs to be addressed such as Aryamahasattva's objection over the Renfrew citation they should be addressed here, not with a wholesale reversion.μηδείς (talk) 19:39, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

User Nyisnotbad

Nyisnotbad has again been blocked from editing this article, this time for 10 days, and has been placed on civility probation and been limited to one revert per page per week. Violations of these restrictions should be reported to the edit warring board.μηδείς (talk) 15:21, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

User Aryamahasattva

I have put a 3RR warning on Aryamahasattva's account. Eupator, the facts are suggestive re Aryamahasattva and the blocked user. If you have any more evidence can you please act on it?μηδείς (talk) 17:07, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Lehmann, Hübschmann and Müller

Winfred Lehmann's chapter on Armenian within his A Reader in Nineteenth Century Historical Indo-European Linguistics has been cited repeatedly as showing that Lehmann supports the view that Armenian is a branch of Iranian. Not only is this a false summary of the text, which referes to Mueller's theory of the Iranian nature of Armenian only then to refute it, it is inaccurate in attributing that remark to Lehmann. Lehmann's only contribution is the editor's introduction. The chapter itself is a translation of Huebschmann, not Lehmann's own argument.μηδείς (talk) 16:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 190.245.78.94, 10 October 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} There are some grammar mistakes in the 'western armenian' dialect section. I was wondering if I could correct them.

190.245.78.94 (talk) 19:53, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

You can either propose the dit in the form suggested in the template, or register for an account and make the edits yourself. I suggest the latter.μηδείς (talk) 20:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Not done for now: Please post the corrected version of the page here and I will make the changes to the article. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 22:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

early contacts

The section currently mentions three early contacts, the Iranian, the Causcasian (largets subsection) and the supposed Anatolian. Rather than a long cumbersome subhead mentioning all three, as if they were of equal status and exhaustive, I simply chose a neutral descriptor.

I would very much welcome well sourced and NPOV additions on the Iranian influence, since it is significant. At this point I oppose a longer heading as cumbersome, but if the Iranian section were expanded, then we could give it and the Caucasian section their own subheads.μηδείς (talk) 20:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

naram sin

I have been unable to find any scholarly reference tying the victory stele of naram sin to the armenians. This source (Mesopotamian Cosmic Geography, Wayne Horowitz, 1998) says the reference may be to Aleppo in Syrian or the a land in western I ran but I find no metion of armenians.μηδείς (talk) 20:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Simply referring once again to the stele itself is insufficient. According to the scholarly source above, the term seems to refer to the city of Alman or Halman in Western Iran. The only sources I can find connecting the stele to the Armenians are popular wikis and websites with obvious nationalist POVs and none of these provide scholarly sources to back their claims. We need a scholarly source for this extreme claim.μηδείς (talk) 22:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry, but this reference to the Aramni in the Naram Sin stele is a nationalist/fringe POV theory with no scholarly support. I have spent the last several hours searching for any reliable source. In addition to the source above, which explains that the stele refers to a place called Halman, J P Mallory and Adams in their Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, 1997, say in the essay on the origin of the Armenians (p29) that the earliest attestation of the Armenians is in 590 BC and that they can be identified, most likely, with the Muski from the twelfth century BC. This material should not be restored without attribution to some reputable scholar.μηδείς (talk) 22:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

"Armenia as Xenophon Saw It", p 47, A History of Armenia Vahan Kurkjian, 2008

μηδείς (talk) 01:18, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

xenophon

As far as I am aware other Greek authors did mention the Armenians, but Xenophon's is the oldest surviving mention of which I am aware. Any more reversions without a rationale and consensus will be treated as edit warring.μηδείς (talk) 04:19, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

AN3 complaint Aryamahasattva

I have formally filed an edit warring complaint against User:Aryamahasattva here. μηδείς (talk) 06:13, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

glottalic theory

I happily welcome comments on the glottalic theory. I fear the current comments are far to opaque for unfamiliar readers - can someone add an expansion needed banner rather than a clarification tag?

Also, unfortunately, the Sci Am ref to Diakonov fails. The word aspirated is not once mentioned in the article and Armenian and glottalic do not come anywhere close to each other. I don't question the underlying basis in fact, but the ref was added ad hoc and isn't useful for the claim.μηδείς (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

here is a link to said sci am source http://rbedrosian.com/Classic/sciam1.htm

You're right, that article doesn't really deal with the glottalic theory. I've replaced it with more reliable sources and clarified the wording to be more precise. This article on the Armenian language doesn't need more text on Armenian's relation to the glottalic theory. What is says is enough. The theory is not widely accepted anymore, so putting any more emphasis on it would be a violation of WP:UNDUE or something like that. It doesn't warrant more than the sentence it has. --Taivo (talk) 11:18, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't want more weight given to the idea, but rather that it be explained a little more clearly so that lay readers will have at least some idea of what is being talked about - not that it's an easy subject to condense! I'll see what I can do later.μηδείς (talk) 14:42, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Remember that it's an outdated notion and if readers want more information, there is a convenient Wikilink that they can follow. It's not critical information for this article. --Taivo (talk) 16:51, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

flags

My personal opinion is that a list of flags listing any nation in which a particular language is spoken is pretty much useless. I would support limiting listing only countries where the language has a de jure or de facto official status or a significant minority status, above some reasonable percentage threshold. This should be a matter of reasoned consensus and verifiable sources, not assertion of personal knowledge.μηδείς (talk)

Reliable sources and not personal knowledge or other Wikipedia articles should always be the foundation. --Taivo (talk) 04:54, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

On a side note, why is Azerbaijan's flag listed? Armenians no longer reside in Azerbaijan, those that do are very few in number, can't openly claim to be Armenian, and speak either Azeri turkish and/or Russian. I suggest it be removed.--Moosh88 (talk) 20:20, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources still list Armenian as being spoken in Azerbaijan. That's what we go on. --Taivo (talk) 20:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Do you mind providing me a link to these 'reliable' sources?--Moosh88 (talk) 00:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Ethnologue. This has been discussed over and over again, ad nauseam, to the point of nausea. μηδείς (talk) 01:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Not a shocker. Can you provide me a link to the relevent discussion? I'd like to see what else is supporting including Azerbaijan as a country where Armenian is spoken--Moosh88 (talk) 03:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Ethnologue, The Linguasphere Register, Sprachen der Welt, Classification and Index of the World's Languages, Atlas of the World's Languages, etc. all place Armenian speakers in Azerbaijan. Indeed, I have yet to find a single source on my shelf that gives detailed distribution info on Armenian that does not include Azerbaijan. That's a fairly large list of reliable sources, no matter what your personal feelings about Ethnologue are. BTW, the best reliable sources are not "links", but actual, printed books. --Taivo (talk) 02:24, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

On another note, Armenian is spoken not only in Israel but also in Palestine - the Armenian quarter in the old city of Jerusalem is East of the '67 armistice line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.51.232 (talk) 15:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

balkan indo-european

Phoenecians8 has been repeatedly removing the word Balkan from the text's reference to the proposed Balkan Indo-European subgroup while adding Indo-Iranian to that group. The reference to p 383 of Fortson from the article is available here. It quite explicitly contrasts the older augment subgrouping to a newer Baltic one:

"At times it has been thought to form a group with Greek, Indo-Iranian, and Phrygian (section 10.4). Another view that has been gaining prominence regards it as part of a "Balkan Indo-European" Subgroup together with Greek, Albanian and Phrygian."

I don't know how much clearer this can be. But the edits reflect a fatal misunderstanding of the source at best, if not an outright falsification of the source which names a Balkan group and excludes Indo-Iranian from it. I tried communicating with the editor but given the continued reversion I have warned the editor about edit warring. μηδείς (talk) 20:39, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

The previous anon IP has been replaced by another anon IP, perhaps a sock of the first. I have requested semi-protection for the page. --Taivo (talk) 06:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Bad mistakes in Correspondence in initial position table

There are some serious mistakes in 'Correspondence in initial position' table. Here they are: 1. First of all, one can easily see no difference between rows 2 and 4 (Sebastia and Istanbul) as well as between rows 3 and 7 (Erevan and Classical Armenian etc.). 2. Then, Classical Armenian is a disputed dialect / accent: most scholars hold it didn't have breathy voiced consonants, others, a relatively small group (but perhaps a more progressive), that it did have them. 3. The breathy voice symbol is a small [ɦ], not [h], e.g., [dʱ]. 4. The Armenian dialect names tradition knows neither Azeri Əylis (it is Agulis) nor Turkish Sason (which is Sasun). Why name Armenian-derived toponyms with these corrupted forms? 5. The given IE forms - voiced, breathy and voiceless - are just one of the two hypotheses, the second being the Glottalic theory which says these sounds were ejective, voiced and voiceless respectively.

For more and correct info, see, for example, Andrew Garrett: Adjarian's Law, the Glottalic Theory and the Position of Armenian --Mahtrqerin (talk) 18:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

IE cognate sets

This article isn't about Slavic languages or any other group of IE languages other than Armenian, therefore only one representative of the major branches of IE is appropriate in the cognate list, not every language that some nationalist IP wants to display for the world because s/he doesn't like the principle representative already on the chart. Russian and Old Church Slavonic are the standard representatives of Slavic in most works on Indo-European. Russian is the representative in this article's chart. Adding Ukrainian because an anon IP doesn't like Russian is inappropriate in this article. --Taivo (talk) 10:48, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Russian "požar" not cognate with "fire"

Russian word "пожар" (požar) is a composite word consisting of the prefix po- and stem žar, the same as in the word "žarko" two lines above. Additionally the word has a specific meaning of 'disastrous fire' (i.e. structure fire, forest fire - these usages would be translated with the word "požar"), while the unmarked word for the physical phenomenon of fire is "огонь" (ogon'). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.74.11.222 (talk) 13:47, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm new here ! Wikipedia is beautiful. --SuperArmenian (talk) 14:39, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Agglutinative

This sentence seems suspicious: "Armenian is agglutinative, one of only two Indo-European languages with this characteristic, the other one being Persian." Is Persian really the only Iranian language that is agglutinative? By the way, the page for Ossetian also claims that it is agglutinative. User332572385 (talk) 20:26, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

BRD

JorisvS Reverting and not discussing this issue is clearly a violation of BRD. This should have been done with your first revert. So please, can you explain in full detail why the removal of such reliably sourced content should be maintained? Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:37, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

No, EtienneDolet, when YOU get reverted, YOU are to bring it to the Talk Page, not the editor doing the reverting. Read WP:BRD. That is utter unscientific nonsense about Armenian being one of the "oldest languages". There is no such thing. All languages are equally old (except for pidgins and creoles) because they ultimately all have their source a couple hundred thousand years ago in Africa. That "oldest language" crap has been around for thousands of years since humans first became interested in languages and it's as much nationalistic chest-pounding now as it was then. --Taivo (talk) 17:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you are the bold editor who should bring this to the talk page. Languages do not have 'ages' (except for creoles). No language can said to be older than another, because all languages have a continuous line of descend with earlier forms. Often, they split into multiple descendants, but not always. And referring to a proto-language with the same term or not has no bearing whatsoever on the actual situation. This is where my example of if Italian would still be called Latin and then claiming it is one of the oldest languages in the world comes from. --JorisvS (talk) 17:44, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

TaivoLinguist I'm not the only person who appears to be reverting. In fact, I don't have a concern with such content remaining there. If there are users who disagree with such content, why must that user resort to edit-summaries to express himself? What are talk pages for? In fact, isn't it quite odd to see a user open a section in the TP of content he agrees with?

JorisvS No, you should have brought it here. Please read my response to Taivo above.

Your explanation as to languages being old may have validity under the understanding of our general understanding of linguistics, but the Armenian languages as a classification of a certain branch of human language has existed for quite some time now. Armenians spoke Armenian in the days of Xenophon and Homer. It was indeed known as Armenian then as it is now. And with a tremendous amount of sources backing such a claim, I don't see what's so wrong with that statement. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:48, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

You obviously haven't actually read WP:BRD, EtienneDolet. B you add something boldly to the article. R someone reverts your addition. D you then go to the talk page and justify why you want to add the material you want to add, building a consensus before putting it back in. You are simply wrong about who should be talking on the Talk Page. It's you who have to justify your edits. We don't have to justify our reverts before you bring it here. --Taivo (talk) 18:23, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

It's clear that you don't know anything about the scientific field of linguistics, EtienneDolet, if you think that your simplistic description of Armenian bears any relationship to scientific fact. It's just nationalistic chest-beating. The Armenian language changes just like every other language in the world and at about the same rate. Today's spoken Armenian is no more similar to Armenian of 2000 years ago than today's Italian is to Latin. We could just as easily call today's Italian "Latin" with about the same level of accuracy. Modern Armenian is not an "old" language. It is no older than Italian or Mandarin or English. --Taivo (talk) 18:29, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Making personal attacks such as "you don't know anything" is really not acceptable, especially when the content I provided wasn't said by me, but from reliably sourced material published by the Duke University Press and Routledge. In fact, I could flood the lead with dozens of sources if I had to, but I didn't because it's the lead (per WP:WHYCITE). Calling my edits nationalist is also a baseless personal attack, since I'm neither an Armenian, nor am I a nationalist, and a Wikipedia talk page shouldn't be a place for me to defend myself in that regard. As for your argument regarding the Armenian language of then and now being like Italian and Latin works against you. Though Latin may have similar traits with Italian, French, Spanish, and etc., it is classified as a different language in the scholarly and academic field. What you're doing is equating the two as a makeshift attempt to differentiate the Armenian of the 5th century to the Armenian of today. Yes, the Armenian language has evolved, but the syntax, lexicon, and grammatical structure has remained intact. I could say pronunciation is probably the biggest difference. But more importantly, this isn't about the extent of the evolution, nor is it about differentiation in its specifications, this is about classification, and most modern scholars, if not all, consider the Armenian language to be a separate branch of the Indo-European language from at least the 5th century and onwards. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:58, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Classical Armenian is just as much a different language from Modern Armenian, with all the necessary differences. No language spoken today was spoken in the 5th century, the rate of change is always just too high. And Armenian has been a separate branch of Indo-European for far longer than the 5th century, but that has no bearing on Classical Armenian vs. Modern Armenian. --JorisvS (talk) 21:19, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

There's no source in the academic field that would dare to say modern and classical Armenian are two different languages. That has never been argued and in fact, classical Armenian is still used today in Armenia and throughout its Diaspora as the official language of many of its institutions (i.e. educational facilities, church, community centers, and etc.). At this point, it is classification that's important here and indeed, the Armenian language was classified as a separate language then as it is now. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

If accurate, that's because linguists seldom have a need to say something along the lines of 'these are two different languages', which is not something linguistically interesting. They discuss the sources of their data, describe the differences and similarities and try to describe how they arose and in relation to other speech varieties (such as when a branch likely split off). Nowhere do claims that cannot be grounded in evidence, like '... is one of the oldest languages', have any use. Now, of course Classical Armenian was a distinct language from its neighbors then, just as much as Modern Armenian is a distinct language from its neighbors. After all, Armenian split off from other Indo-European languages much earlier, which means precisely that, 'the Armenian branch split off from other Indo-European languages early', not 'it is one of the oldest languages'. How do you even want to quantify the latter? What are the delineations/criteria you want to use? --JorisvS (talk) 09:16, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the 'proto-Armenian' statement: I am not suggesting either that proto-Armenian was spoken at the time the Armenian alphabet was invented in the 5th century. Proto-Armenian only existed during the Urardian period. But it was the Armenian language that was spoken and written by the time of the invention of the Armenian alphabet. Even if the 5th century were to be taken into account, I don't understand why it's such a problem. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:54, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

The Armenian language that was spoken in the 5th century is not the Armenian language that is spoken today. Changes are continually happening in every language, including Armenian. --Taivo (talk) 18:31, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I didn't say you "didn't know anything", I said that it's clear you don't really know scientific linguistics, which is the case. I'm sure you know a lot about other things. And that quote is not from a reliable linguistic source. I could quote tons of reliable sources in other fields that could say almost anything. The key is that reliable sources only count if they are on topic written by specialists in the topic. I also didn't call you a nationalist, I called the content of your edit (the quote from a non-linguistic source) nationalist and typical of nationalistic chest-beating. It is. I don't know if you are a nationalist or not, but your quote was. And your argument about Italian and Latin versus Classical Armenian and Modern Armenian simply shines a spotlight on the fact that you don't understand linguistic science and language change. JorisvS also responded to this. I suggest you read some actual linguistic works on the topic. For good discussions of the differences between Classical Armenian and Modern Armenian available in English, see:

• Benjamin W. Fortson IV. 2010. Indo-European Language and Culture. Second edition. Wiley-Blackwell.
• John A.C. Greppin. 1997. "Armenian Phonology," Phonologies of Asia and Africa. Eisenbrauns. Volume 2. Pages 777-793.
• Roberto Ajello. 1998. "Armenian," The Indo-European Languages. Routledge. Pages 197-227.
• John A.C. Greppin. 1992. "Armenian," International Encyclopedia of Linguistics. Oxford. Volume 1. Pages 112-114.
• Bernard Comrie. 1981. The languages of the Soviet Union. Cambridge.
• E.G. Tumanyan. 1966. "Armyanskiy Yazyk," Yazyki Narodov SSSR. Izdatel'stvo "Nauka". Volume 1. Pages 562-598.

And those are just the ones I have on my personal shelves. And at no single, solitary point do any of them say, "Armenian is one of the oldest languages". It's simply not linguistically factual. --Taivo (talk) 21:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

And yes, every actual linguistic source treats Modern Armenian as a different language from Classical Armenian in the same sense that they treat Middle English as a different language from Modern English. And for centuries after Latin became Italian, French, Spanish, etc. it was still used as the language of education, church, community centers, etc. You simply don't understand what we're telling you. The language of the Armenian people has, of course, been on a separate branch of Indo-European for a couple of millennia. But that's not the same thing as saying that today's language is "one of the oldest" or that Modern Armenian is the same language as Classical Armenian. That's simply not linguistically accurate. The very fact that there are different labels for the two illustrates the linguistic reality--that they are different speech forms (and that even ignores the third label "Middle Armenian"). Indeed, there are linguistic descriptions that even treat Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian as different languages. --Taivo (talk) 21:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

This is what you are really trying to say: The Armenian branch seems to have separated from Proto-Indo-European early and is not closely tied to any other Indo-European group. The article already says that. Armenian is not "one of the oldest languages" since that makes no linguistic sense whatsoever. --Taivo (talk) 22:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

And again, you have not provided a source that specifically classifies that Classical Armenian is a different language than its modern equivalent. Please show some WP:VERIFIABILITY and don't expect to have me read all those books and address your concern. Again, claiming that I don't know "linguistic science" brings nothing productive to this discussion. You'd have to respond to what sources say and not engage in such personal attacks. As for what my sources say, it is perfectly clear that modern linguists don't consider Classical Armenian with modern Armenian as two different branches of language:

• Meier-Brügger, Michael (2003). Indo-European Linguistics. Berlin: De Gruyter. ISBN 3110895145. - "Evidence of Armenian begins with the 5th century AD, likely soon after the creation of the Armeinan script in 407 by missionary Mesrop in order to translate the Bible into Armenian in 410.
• M.P., Sinha (2005). Modern Linguistics. Atlantic Publishers & Dist. ISBN 8126904151. "Armenian. Its oldest texts date from 405 AD."

None of these sources place Classical and Modern into two different language categories. What was called Armenian then is still called Armenian today is all I'm trying to say. To say that they are two different languages would go against most scholarly discourse and classification. In fact, what would be better is to see a source that would go out of its way to make that assertion. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:35, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

It is clear that you don't understand what the two linguists here are saying. Until you actually comprehend what is being said to you, it's difficult for you to discuss this effectively. Your quotes directly above are correct, the earliest written texts in Armenian are from 405 AD, but that's not Modern Armenian, is it? That's Classical Armenian. Every single one of the sources I've cited above differentiate between Classical Armenian and Middle Armenian and Modern Western Armenian and Modern Eastern Armenian. Just because you are unwilling to actually do the linguistic research to understand the linguistic issues involved isn't our problem. It's your problem. Armenian is simply not "one of the oldest languages". That is a linguistically stupid comment. The Armenian branch of Indo-European split off from Proto-Indo-European relatively early. That is a linguistically valid comment and the article already states that. But is it definitely not the same thing as "Armenian is one of the oldest languages". --Taivo (talk) 00:15, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

We don't expect you to read everything, but we do expect you to understand the things you're saying and the quotes you're using. Those quotes are just saying what the age is of the oldest written evidence we have from the Armenian branch, nothing more. Clear and verifiable, contrary to age claims of a language. --JorisvS (talk) 09:16, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of the age, it is not nationalistic baloney. I find that pretty offensive. Classical Armenian is very old. --92slim (talk) 20:19, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Classical Armenian is not "very old". It is the same age as Old English and Late Coptic, for example. But "Armenian" is not "very old". It is old in the same sense that you could say "English is very old". Modern Armenian is not "very old". But linguists don't use such language since it is unscientific. That's the point here. We're not going to allow unscientific baloney. --Taivo (talk) 21:47, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Etienne, hi. The written tradition of Hindi goes back to Vedic Sanskrit, but no-one would say that Hindi is one of the oldest languages in the world because of that. Based on your definition, nearly all of the literary languages of India are "older" than Armenian. But that statement has no meaning: Armenian didn't start with writing, so it makes no sense to date it according to when it was first written. You get the same kind of claims about Chinese, but since probably less than 1% of the Chinese population can read Classical Chinese (and essentially 0% can read the old stuff), claims about how old it is are terribly misleading. Better to say that Armenian has a written history dating back to X, or a literary tradition dating back to Y. You could even say it has one of the oldest written traditions in the area (though you'd need a reliable source for that), but it's not useful to give the meaningless description "old" to the language. — kwami (talk) 01:14, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Kwamikagami I appreciate your honest response, I do more or less agree with you. To further clarify my position: I never wanted to say that the Armenian language started with the birth of its script. Some scholars do use that date, but it may be wrong to say so since Armenian was spoken earlier than that. My point here is to respect Armenian as a separate branch of the IE language in and of itself. It split off from the IE branch relatively early and that's what makes it old. Whether we should take Classical, Medieval, or Modern Armenian as a premise to such debates shouldn't matter because all of that falls within our understanding of the Armenian language as its own entity. JorisvS' response here is actually what I'm in agreement with. Perhaps adding 'the Armenian branch split off from other Indo-European languages early' in the article would be a good compromise. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:52, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Which is a way of saying it forms its own branch of IE. But I would take your wording to mean that the Armenian branch split off early compared to other branches, which we have no good evidence for. — kwami (talk) 03:10, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

It must be kept in mind that the fact that Latin is considered a different language from its modern descendants, and that it has a completely different name from most of its descendants, is not an objective fact about Latin but merely a social convention. It would be equally possible to consider Latin and the modern Romance languages all a single language, just like many do in the case of Chinese, Arabic or Quechua, or at least to give the modern Romance languages names including "Latin" (indeed, they are sometimes called "Neo-Latin", especially in the Italian tradition that likes to emphasise the continuity from Latin to Italian). For example, we could call Classical Latin "Ancient Latin" and the Romance languages "Modern Latin", Italian "Italo-Latin", Spanish "Hispano-Latin" or "Hispanic Latin" etc., analogously to Arabic. What we call languages is completely arbitrary. This is the true reason why some languages seem to be older than others – Armenian, Greek, Persian, Chinese, Arabic, Aramaic – they kept their name since antiquity (or sometimes it was consciously resurrected, in the case of Uyghur even for a different, albeit closely related language), although they have since split into a number of mutually unintelligible varieties. Neither are these languages all particularly conservative (Chinese certainly isn't, nor are the modern Arabic "dialects"), nor do they all have the oldest continuous and surviving written traditions – the written tradition of Armenian is old, but far from the oldest. For example, the written tradition of North Germanic is at least equally old, but the North Germanic languages are not treated as a single language anymore. The written tradition of Indic is even far older, but again, the Indic languages are not treated as a unit. There are some more "exotic" languages such as Tibetan, Mon(ic), Yucatec Maya, Nubian, Javanese, Cham(ic) or Telugu which have a written tradition of a comparable age, but they are usually overlooked. Even Japanese is attested as early as Classical Armenian (if much more marginally), as in the Inariyama Sword inscription. Globally, a 1500-year-old written tradition is old, but not all that unique. Compare List of languages by first written accounts. And, to emphasise that point again, "age of written tradition of X language" is not "age of X language" (let alone "age of the X standard language"!). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:26, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Florian Blaschke I did find a source ([7]) that claims "Armenian and Georgian are the oldest literary languages in continuous use in Eastern Europe." I also found another source ([8]) that says "Armenian is the oldest of the literary languages in use in the USSR today." I think this perspective of the Armenian language is pretty significant. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:37, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

That is at least more specific than "Armenian is a mighty old language", which is so vague as to be meaningless. Still, if you insist on defining Eastern Europe as broadly as to include the Transcaucasus, I wonder how you can ignore Greek, which has been used as the (or a) prime literary language throughout a significant part of the region ever since antiquity, including the Caucasus itself. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:50, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say it is the oldest at any rate, but at least 'one of the oldest'. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:54, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

"ajnabi" as Indo-European cognate?

Is there a source for ajnabi ("stranger, unfamiliar" in Persian) being an Indo-European cognate from *n- + *ǵneH₃-? The Wiktionary entry notes without comment that it's of Arabic origin, from أَجْنَبِيّ ʾajnabiyy, and the latter form looks like it's derived from the triliteral root j-n-b. I can't find anything suggesting that ʾajnabiyy or j-n-b were borrowed into Arabic. --Futurulus (talk) 08:11, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I second that. ajnabi is definitely a (hardly used) Arabic loan. The Persian word is bīgāneh — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.67.196 (talk) 13:11, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I removed it from the table. If anyone has a reliable source that says ajnabi was Indo-European before it was an Arabic word, by all means add it back with a citation. --Futurulus (talk) 09:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Answer to my question

I would like to know why this sentence was removed from the lead;
"Its[Armenian] vocabulary has been heavily influenced by Western Middle Iranian languages, particularly Parthian, and to a lesser extent by Greek, Latin, Old French, Persian, Arabic, Turkish, and other languages throughout its history."
Oddly this was removed by the IP73.51.204.149, with the edit summary of "no sources".
Yet, "Classical Armenian, or Grabar, imported numerous words from Middle Iranian languages, primarily Parthian,[35] and contains smaller inventories of borrowings from Greek,[35] Syriac[35]..."
[35] Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian, I. M. Diakonoff, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 105, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1985), 597.
And, "The loans from Iranian languages initially led linguists to erroneously classify Armenian as an Iranian language. The distinctness of Armenian was only recognized when Hübschmann (1875)[31] used the comparative method to distinguish two layers of Iranian loans from the older Armenian vocabulary." --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:03, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Just add it back. He should have more explaining to do than "no sources". Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:12, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

There ARE no sources for Latin, Old French, Persian, Arabic, Turkish, and other vaguely implied languages, so we can mark this off right away.

utexas.edu makes no such mention of the comparative method, let alone Hübschmann being the first to suggest Armenian wasn't an Iranian language. In fact I noticed this contradictory line: His identification of shared characteristics in Armenian and the European languages as well as in Armenian and Indo-Iranian gave excellent support to the wave theory which had been proposed three years earlier by Schmidt. Seems an a possibly Iranocentric user twisted the words to fit a POV agenda. So if anything, this line needs to go as well.

Also just looked at the Gray Atkinson source, couldn't find him specifically talking about Classical Armenian/Graber anywhere. In fact concerning Armenian and Greek, he says "the early divergence of Greek and Armenian lineages". He even provides a graph on the third page of Armenian and Greek splitting up cocurrently, with Hittie (Proto-Armenian by the way) and Tocharian being the only older languages, long before all these other ones supposedly shared their "heavy influence". Seems whoever interpreted this to mean Armenian was merely a copy of Iranian and Greek, rather than mutual changes, also had a POV agenda. It would seem the IP didn't remove true information, but rather he didn't remove enough false information. --Steverci (talk) 00:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Hrachia Adjarian writes about this prolifically. There's no debate about Persian influence in the Armenian language. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, every language has been influenced by others, but no others language articles have this highlighted in the header. --Steverci (talk) 03:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Arabic loan words ~"New Approaches to Medieval Armenian Language and Literature, edited by Joseph Johannes Sicco Weitenberg, page 96.

Mongolian loan words ~"TANGSUX IN ARMENIA, E. SCHÜTZ, Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae, Vol. 17, No. 1 (1964), page 106.

Persian loan words ~"The Armenians: From Kings and Priests to Merchants and Commissars, Razmik Panossian, page 39.

Would appear Arabic, Mongolian and Persian do have loan words in the Armenian language. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:07, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Definitely want a reliable translation quote for the over half century old non-English source, especially since this is, as you said, before Western academia understood the origins of Armenian. Actually a quote for all would be nice, since I have pointed out many supposed sources had been falsely quoted. And ultimately you're making the same mistake as them: using loan words and misinterpreting sources to present a different origin to the Armenian language. Loanword is not an actual part of the language.[9] Pointing out English people say bazaar or other Persian loanwords is not enough to present English as an Iranian language. English has hundreds of loanwords from Hindi, Afrikaans, Malay, Persian, Greek, etc. and a lot more[10] but none of this is even mentioned on the English language article. So the line from the header should definitely be removed, and reducing the importance of loanwords compared to the actual Armenian language be considered. --Steverci (talk) 03:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

This is starting to sound like someone without a real argument. FYI, all the sources are in English. --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:17, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Vocabulary =/= Loanwords, that's my argument. I never said Arabic and Persian don't have loanwards, there were just no sources. And even so loanwords are not part of the actual language, it's WP:OFFTOPIC and belongs in a separate article, such as Loanwords in English and Loanwords in German. The line in the overview needs to be removed and making a run on list of every single loanword language is unencyclopedic. "Smaller inventories" are WP:UNDUE. I propose to just leave "Middle Iranian languages, primarily Parthian, and contains smaller inventories of borrowings from Greek and Syriac" to avoid Wikipedia:CLUTTER. Persian falls under Iranian and most Mongol and Arab loanwords are loaned through Iranian anyway.[11][12] --Steverci (talk) 01:38, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it needs to be reinstated. No doubt Armenian is as of currently an isolate IE language, but every important aspect needs to be covered, when possible. Disregarding the fact that Armenian was extensively influenced by various Iranian languages incl. Persian, (or whatever language that's in that sentence) and just saying "all languages are influenced by other languages", is probably the worst WP:JDL attempt I've seen in a long time. Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 05:40, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

There's an issue of WP:UNDUEWEIGHT here though. While I agree that Iranian has had a significant impact on the Armenian language, far too much weight is put on an observation made in error. It shouldn't be the first thing mentioned in the Early Contacts section. So I'm going to make it the last paragraph of that section. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:20, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

@EtienneDolet: ? An observation made in error or not, this edit messes up the chronology entirely. It was firstly that that assessment was made (and not just by a few mediocre scholars of that time either), when later on, (in the course of the 20th century) Austin's (1942) and Diakonov's (1985) conclusions were made. Just saying. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:29, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

The issue isn't one of chronology, rather it's a question of WP:WEIGHT. Per WP:WEIGHT: "For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority; to do so would give undue weight to it." It also states: "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements." So in other words, and in the case of this article, what Wikipedia's policy guidelines suggest is that readers should first encounter what the Armenian language is rather than what it is not. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:42, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm curious, did you even search to find out if "heavily influenced" is supported by reliable sources, before you labeled it Peacock?

• "Classical Armenian, or Grabar, was heavily influenced by Western Middle Iranian languages, particularly Parthian, and, to a lesser extent, by Greek, Latin, and Old French." -- The Anglicization of European Lexis, ed. Cristiano Furiassi, Virginia Pulcini, Félix Rodríguez González, page 150.
• "Armenian has been so heavily influenced by other languages, notably Iranian, that until late in the nineteenth century there was doubt whether is should not be classed as an Iranian dialect." -- Historical Linguistics: An Introduction, Winfred P. Lehmann, page 70.
• "Furthermore, given that the ARmenian language was heavily influenced by Iranian/Parthian, many words reflect a Semitic and Syriac background." -- Early and Medieval Rituals and Theologies of Baptism, Bryan D. Spinks, page 100.
• "The numerical aspect of the Iranian lexical elements in the Armenian language is so significant, and the Iranian loan-words are so organically adapted and integrated-both phonetically and semantically-in the Armenian vocabulary, that the view of the Iranian origin of Armenian had been the prevailing approach to the historical affiliation of this language until the last decades of the 19th century." -- Armeno-Partho-Sogdica, Vladimir Livshits, Iran & the Caucasus, Vol. 10, No. 1 (2006), 77.

I found these sources quite easily. Doesn't look like a peacock term to me, much less "undue weight".--Kansas Bear (talk) 01:54, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, however just because sources say it is heavily influenced doesn't mean we here on Wikipedia should phrase it that way either. More importantly, however, in the sentence's current format, "heavily" can be effectively understood in the following clause of the sentence which says "...and to a lesser extent by Greek, Persian, and Arabic throughout its history." Thus removing "heavily" will make it less POV, especially given that for some strange reason Persian is once again mentioned towards the end of the sentence. This leads me to believe that that particular sentence was added into the lead irrespective of the general balance and tone of the article while disregarding fundamental considerations of WP:WEIGHT. A more immediate concern should also be raised to the fact that "was heavily influenced by Western Middle Iranian languages, particularly Parthian," is completely copyvio. And that's not it. Copyviolated material is being copied and pasted into this article over and over again by the same user (see: "Armenian word forms are close to or even identical with Iranian...") To sum up: the quality of this article is deteriorating fast from its relatively stable history due to these fundamental concerns of weight, POV, and copyright violations. This is coupled with the fact that, through my humble observation, it appears that there's some serious Irano-centric POV seeping into not only this article, but of almost every major ethnic article in the region, and it needs to be sorted out. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:25, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

OH! Just ignore what "you" don't like and Wiki-label anything that threatens "your" beliefs. Got it. Then I see no need to continue a dialogue with someone that refuses to accept what reliable sources state and simply pick and choose what suits their own personal POV.
"it appears that there's some serious Irano-centric POV seeping into not only this article, but of almost every major ethnic article in the region"
Wow. Just fucking wow. Well through my humble observations, as a person of Scottish, English, Irish, French and German ancestry living in Kansas, I'd say there are some editors that are absolutely scared shitless of the words Persian, Parthian, Persia, Iran, Iranic, and their inclusion into articles. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:00, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

No Kansas Bear, I actually agree that the Armenian language is heavily influenced by Persian. I've even pointed that out above. However, as a Wikipedia editor I am wary of a serious imbalance when it comes to the usage of some words here. To that effect, some of the wording added to this article by the same user is very concerning:

• "Parthian had a huge lexical as well as vocabulary impact on Armenian." [13]
• "The enormous amount of loans from Iranian languages..." [14]
• "Its vocabulary has been heavily influenced by Western Middle Iranian languages" [15]

...yeah, we get the point. Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:20, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

EPIC. First, the user in question pertains to it being a "content issue" and Wiki labels it as one of undue/due weight. After that, when he was totally baffled by the aforementioned sources, the <insert ethnicity>-POV card was used from the deck. Just epic. A more peculiar thing is, that right after he placed his last comments here, a few minutes afterwards he went on what conform Wiki's standards is to be labeled a disruptive editing spree, and started to remove sourced content as to be seen here and here, while totally wrongly labeling it as "copy-vio material". The supposed "source" from which it was copied according to EtienneDolet -- is in fact a Wikipedia mirror!. I concur with Kansas Bear; as long as those linked WP's are clearly to be seen here, there's not much use in having a dialogue. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

So how is this not a copyright violation of this again? Except for the fact that you added the word "enormous" yourself. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

There is literally one sentence that could perhaps be interpreted as WP:PARAPHRASE -- for the next sentence in line, full credits are given to the Encyclopaedia Iranica, and is therefore legit. I do not believe that that single sentence merits in any way however for the entire passage to be removed, as you did here. Which included (well sourced/easily verifiable) material that was there for a long, long time. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:12, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

A search into one of your copyvio concerns:

• "A more immediate concern should also be raised to the fact that "was heavily influenced by Western Middle Iranian languages, particularly Parthian," is completely copyvio."

That particular sentence existed in the lead since at least 2010, Eupator making a substantial change.[16]

Whereas the book I quoted wasn't published until 2012. The initial sentence in question was added by Medeis in September 2010.[17] --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:59, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Kansas Bear, your point is well taken in regards to Eupator's addition. That particular bit can be restored. However, I'm still cautious when we employ such words as "enormous", "huge", and "heavily" into the article. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:12, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Also, if I have the time over the weekend, I plan on restoring the other paragraph. I'll have to paraphrase it so as to get rid of any copyright concerns. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:24, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

De facto minority status

Unless a language forms a significant minority in a country (~20%), there's no reason for it to be included in the infobox. Yes, California provides DMV and electoral information in Armenian (on request) and a single suburb has a sprinkling of street signs in Armenian, but Chinese has a much wider presence in "official" terms in the state as a whole and even in the U.S. Yet, neither California nor the United States are included as locations with a significant Chinese-speaking minority on the Chinese language article's infobox since its significance is not a widespread as Spanish. Also, having education guaranteed in the language does not mean it is enforced. One could look at the situation of Occitan in France, where while the government has approved of it, is seldom actually followed. This section does not have much compelling value so as to have these locations be considered Armenian-speaking and should only be included in the article's body given that it has sources. This only makes an infobox messier and less encyclopedic. - Moalli (talk) 09:41, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Analytic language?

Paragraph 1 of the section Morphology says

With time the Armenian language made a transition from a synthetic language (Classical Armenian) to a typical analytic language (Modern Armenian), with Middle Armenian as a midpoint in this transition. [bolding mine]

Can that be right? The subsection "Noun" says

Nouns are declined for one of seven cases

and the subsection "Verb" says

Verbs in Armenian have an expansive system of conjugation with two main verb types (three in Western Armenian) changing form based on tense, mood and aspect.

Is this a contradiction? Loraof (talk) 19:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

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