Talk:Armstrong Whitworth A.W.16/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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According to Tapper's AW aircraft since 1913, only 4 were delivered to China despite an allocation of 16 works numbers to this order. The UK register of civilian aircraft only shows 6 x AW16s; the two prototypes and the four China-bound machines. It was normal for British military aircraft on their way to China to travel as civilians to the Far East Aviation Co. Ltd. at Hong Kong. So the 17 claimed here is almost certainly 4.TSRL (talk) 22:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

There are some other differences between this Wiki page and Tapper's account of the AW16. For example some of the dimensions and weights are in mild disagreement. He also says that the aircraft was designed to N.21/26, with no mention of F.9/26. This latter is mentioned by him in connection with the earlier Starling.

N.21/26, where amongst others the AW16 and the Hawker Hoopoe competed produced no contracts but did lead Hawker to continue along a design path that lead, with a switch from radial to inline motor and much else, to the Nimrod. Was the AW16 shipped out to Argentina with the Nimrod in 1931 on HMS Eagle? I don't have evidence for this, but wonder when the on-ship trials of the AW16 took place; presumably it is given in one of the two refs cited (which I've not got). It's not mentioned in Tapper or Barnes (see below).

The reference in para 4 of the Development section to Specification F7/30 seems to have got things wrong, at least if you believe the contents of the Wki link. The competitors list there includes the Gladiator, of course, which won it and a variety of other aircraft, but there is no mention of the AW16, nor the Jockey nor the High-Speed Fury (though the Hawker PV3, which was there used some features developed on the latter).

The Jockey did appear in the earlier F.20/27 competition, won by the Bulldog II, along with an AW machine. Wiki and Barnes, Bristol Aircraft have it as the Starling ( Mks II and unpecified, respectively). However Thetford, in Aircraft of the RAF says it was the AW.16 TSRL (talk) 21:20, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Mason states it was conceived in context of F9/26 but was completed far too late and so was entered as a PV for N.21/26 (as was the Starling). Following carrier trials (which took place along with the first production Nimrods by 402 Flight of the FAA in 1932 (but it doesn't say where). Following this it states that the second prototype was submitted for F.7/30 but was quickly discarded. It does not mention any AW competitor against F20/27 (which were Bristol Bullpup, Hawker F20/27, Westland F20/27, Gloster SS18, DH.77 and Vickers Jockey). Can't find anything about the Jockey and Fury for F7/30.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Number built

  1. AW460 "A-2" CofA 7/12/31 converted to a AW35
  2. AW722 "G-ABKF" CofA 31/12/31 cancelled in 1/37
  3. AW823 "G-ABZL" CofA 16/1/33 sold abroad in 2/34 (To China in Air-Britain)
  4. AW698 unreg CofA 15/12/31 for Reid Massey
  5. AW720 unreg CofA 15/12/31 for Reid Massey
  6. AW721 unreg CofA 15/12/31 for Reid Massey
  7. AW765 "G-ABRH" CofA 19/12/31 Canc 11/32 (To Chinese AF in Air-Britain)
  8. AW766 "G-ABRI" CofA 19/12/31 Canc 11/32 (To Chinese AF in Air-Britain)
  9. AW767 "G-ABRJ" CofA 19/12/31 Canc 11/32 (To Chinese AF in Air-Britain)
  10. AW797 "VR-HAZ" CofA 29/4/32
  11. AW798 "VR-HBK" CofA 29/4/32
  12. AW818 "VR-HBH" CofA 10/5/32
  13. AW819 "VR-HBN" CofA 12/5/32
  14. AW820 "VR-HBQ" CofA 19/5/32
  15. AW825 unreg CofA 20/7/32 For the Far East Aviation Company and delivery to Kawangsi and Canton Air Force (Serial 151)
  16. AW826 unreg CofA 21/7/32 For the Far East Aviation Company and delivery to Kawangsi and Canton Air Force (Serial 152)
  17. AW827 unreg CofA 22/7/32 For the Far East Aviation Company and delivery to Kawangsi and Canton Air Force (Serial 153)
  18. AW829 unreg CofA 19/4/33 For the Far East Aviation Company and delivery to Kawangsi and Canton Air Force

Look like 18 fliers to me (source G-INFO and Jackson's British Civil Aircraft and Air-Britain British Civil Aircraft Register). Not proof but it looks like 16 to China. MilborneOne (talk) 16:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Bit of a problem with the prototypes, Air-Britain has G-ABKF as being the former "A-2" and withdrawn from use 30/12/32 (and finally cancelled in 1/37). G-ACCD (AW828) was registered on 13/1/33 and cancelled on the same day as G-ABKF! So is AW460/AW722/AW828 the same aircraft !! Do the other refs help any? Which means only 17 built one prototype and 16 to China?? MilborneOne (talk) 16:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

    • Tapper seems sure that although AW allocated 16 works no.s for AW16s to China, only 4 were delivered. These are the 4 UK civil registered macins, you number 3,7-9. These were the 4 I had in mind. The 5 Hong Kong registered ones also appear on the "goldenyears" list (is this the same, at root as Air Britain?). They look real enough, with different though similar de-registering dates, so Tapper seems to be wrong. I guess it was harder to search in those pre-electronic days. BTW, where did you find blocks 4-6 and 15-18? If they are certain, then 16 to China!

Acording to Tapper your overall list is two short. The protoype c/n 698, serial S1591 did not get on the civil reg. C/n 722, first painted A-2 became G-ABKF. He also has c/n 828 G-ACCD as a AW16 initially, and that is how she appears on G-INFO, but later became the protoype AW35 Scimitar.

Tapper notes that c/n 460, G-ADBL "is suspect" . It was the second AW35, having previously been an AW16 as your list (no.1), but before that perhaps an AW14. It obviously bothered him. Whatever the details, she became a AW company hack and survived to 1958. So total build looks like 20.

So it looks like 460 is definitely distinct, but that coincidence of dates for 722 and 828 does look a bit suspicious. BestTSRL (talk) 18:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The unregistered blocks and VR-H regs came from Jackson British Civil aircraft probably because they were issued with Export CofAs so they are on record. Just looked up G-ADBL (AW.460) in the Air-Britain book and it is listed as an AW.35 with "A-2" as a previous marking (No CofA issued and scrapped at Baginton in 1958) Mystery deepens. Re-use of the test registration looks likey!! So it looks like:
  • AW460 "A-2" CofA 7/12/31 converted to a AW35 registered G-ADBL 14/1/1935 No CofA issued and de-registered in the 1945 register census but survived to be scrapped in 1958.
  • "AW722 "A-2" "G-ABKF" CofA 31/12/31 cancelled in 1/37 modified to AW35 as G-ACCD (AW828) which was registered on 13/1/33
Not sure why 460 wasnt registered if it had a full CofA, dont now anything about S1591 but I suspect they were only two prototypes (one for F.9/26 and one for N.21/26) the navy one using the serial S1591. Could S1591 be AW460 during its naval trials. Needs more research!! but the score is 2+16 at the moment! MilborneOne (talk) 19:00, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Mason says two prototypes + nine (five to China and four via Hong Kong) - I've found an article in Air Enthusiast Issue 33 "Air War Over China", which mentions 17 AW16s to Kwangsi air force.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
If Tapper's right, S1591 had c/n 698. These blocks in AJJ don't appear in my first ed (1959), which is interesting. I suppose that they were issued does not mean they were applied to real aircrat; they might have been issued in advance, perhaps, and not used.TSRL (talk) 20:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I dont think they would have issued export CofAs to paper aircraft. I think we will have to keep digging. The truth is somewhere!! MilborneOne (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
That could well be right, though I'm naturally cautious. On that theme, I'm not yet convinced we have much evidence that AW722 became AW828, though manufactures have been known to change c/n on modification. Tapper has it AW828 as AW16 and as AW35. AJJ and Tapper both agree on the date of issue of CofA, but not on whether it was an AW16 or 35 at the time! Agree it's possible, though.TSRL (talk) 20:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Note G-ACCD was first registered as an AW16 (G-INFO), c/n 828, agreeing with Tapper.TSRL (talk) 21:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Mason has A-2 the first prototype becoming S1591 and then G-ABKF. It gives the second prototype as G-ACCD being rebuilt as the first AW.35, flying in that form in June 1935.Nigel Ish (talk) 21:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Mason is interesting not sure what that gives us - Looking at three images on the web of the AW.16 (A-2/G-ABLK/S1591) and the colour scheme of "A-2" and "G-ABKF" seem to be the same (also the wheel spats seem the same) on the other hand S1591 looks different colour and wheel spats. If A-2 is AW722 then presumable 460 couldnt really use the same B-class marking so what was 460 doing between 1931 and 1935 when it became G-ADBL!. Do we have any evidence that AW re-issued serial numbers on re-build? Still looking might need to create a timeline for the prototypes - do we have any date data for S1591? MilborneOne (talk) 21:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Tapper has S1591 first flight "late 1930"; second prototype A-2 (later G-ABKF) autumn 1931.TSRL (talk) 21:38, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Tapper p.175 does claim that AW "occasionally" altered C/n s post modification. He is though fairly close to our concerns, as he is trying to decide if there were three Starling II (AW14) {J8028/455, A-1/459 and A-2/460) or two, as he suspects the first and last maybe the same a/c. In fact, he says there might only be have been one, with different wing sets: "the matter remains in doubt." Indeed. If 460 existed, it may have gone through AW16 to AW35. In this case there either would have been two A-2s at Whitley, both AW16s at one time! A-2 Starling II and A-2 AW16 are easily distinguished, the latter having N type strutting; also, you'd probably call the former a sesquiplane. User:TSRL|TSRL]] (talk) 22:19, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I think the rules on b-class marking are not the same as proper registration and some companies used the same marking as long as they were not airborne at the same time! MilborneOne (talk) 22:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Given that at this time AW had only just begun to think that Type numbers (not just c/ns) might be a good idea (c.f. the jump from AW16 to the very similar AW35 Scimitar), you're surely right; posterity was not in their minds!TSRL (talk) 23:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
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