Talk:Arrowhead Stadium/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Tone
This article reads like a ballot pamphlet, especially in regards to the "Quotes" section.
NASL Team
I keep reading that the NASL's Kansas City Spurs played here, but I don't see how that's possible. The team only existed from 1968 to 1970 and the stadium didn't open until 1972. Therefore, I'm pulling that information as incorrect until I can find some more information. RADICALBENDER★ 00:25, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Loudest Stadium
I belive that in the Trivia section it says that teh stadium is the loudest NFL and MLS stadium, which I think is an oponion. 152.163.100.72 22:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
"It has been proven that Arrowhead is the loudest stadium"..Who proved this? Qwest Field reached 130 decibels against the Giants this season. I think this opinion needs to be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.227.156.73 (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2006.
- I disagree strongly with removing it. If you can verifiably contradict statement, then add a note about it. However, this "title" has been attributed tothem long enoug and often enough that it has pretty much entered the lore of the Chiefs organization and the NFL in general. Oakland is the most inhospitable place to play away, Denver has the thinnest air, and Arrowhead is the loudest. And it's going to take more than one loud game for any other stadium to take this title - it's not just the noise of any one game that has earned KC fans this distinction, but rather consistant behavior over time. --Reverend Loki 16:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I can agree with you about "lore", but that doesn't "prove" anything. Was there an independant study done to determine this? I think the word "proven" needs to be replaced with something like "it was been considered the loudest" or something of the nature. Also, adding that Sports Illustrated has Arrowhead at #1 because of crowd noise, when they don't even mention it at all, might be pushing it. On the flip side, SI writes, "No team uses home-field noise to its advantage better than the Seahawks. The Giants had 11 false-start penalties during a trip to Seattle this season. The Seahawks have won 22 of their last 25 home games."source Arrowhead may have had the "loudest stadium" title these past years, but since 2002(when it was built) and especially lately, the loudest stadium has been Qwest Field. Seattle fans are nuts, dating back to the Kingdome when the NFL imposed the "Kingdome Rule", where the home team could draw penalties for crowd noise.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.227.156.73 (talk) 18:24, 17 October 2006.
- Because of its large upper deck canopies (which deflect crowd noise back to the field), Quest Field is almost certainly louder than Arrowhead Stadium. The entry for Arrowhead Stadium is soaked in homerism, more than any other Wikipedia stadia entry I've seen, and it suffers for it.--Truthiness 22:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- Not that this moves the argument forward one bit, but I see your cries for factuality, and I look at your nickname, and I can't help but smile. Anyways, the tone and bias of the article has been turned way down, and the article does not make any unsubstantiated claims, nor is it being used to argue any controversial points. It is merely serving as an encyclopedic repository for info gleaned elsewhere. If you want Chiefs fans (and many, many non-fans, as well) to stop claiming Arrowhead reigns as loudest stadium in the NFL, then go find each and every source that says so and get them to retract their statements. This isn't the place to make those arguments. --Reverend Loki 23:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- Your suggestion that I should "find each and every source that says so and get them to retract their statements" is absolutely ridiculous. The onus is on you to come up with a credible source for your very questionable claim. I suspect that you cannot find even one objective source (published since the newer stadia have opened) that would suggest that Arrowhead is the loudest outdoor stadium in the league. But I commend you on your attempt to shirk your responsibility.--Truthiness 07:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Man, I write a nice, friendly response, and you come back with a reply that is dangerously close to a personal attack. Man, no respect anymore. First off, you were right the first time - the plural of "stadium" is "stadiums" - stadia is the Latin plural, and best applied to multiples of Roman/Greek track-and-field venues, or rarely as a unit of measure for distance. Secondly, it's not my claim... it's the claim of many, many people. Do a quick Google for "loudest stadium in the NFL". How many Arrowhead references do you see, as opposed to Qwest references? There's even a few Mile High references. Now, do me a favor and do a search of this article for the word "loudest". You will find that this word appears exactly twice. The first time, it is in the sentence:
- "Arrowhead has long been considered to be the loudest outdoor stadium in the NFL: the fans often reach sound levels of over 120 decibels, which is as loud as a jet airliner taking off."
- This merely states that Arrowhead has a reputation as the loudest. Since the term "loudest stadium in the NFL" is ill-defined at best (see my further notes below), every such claim without a lengthy list of disclaimers and qualifiers must be taken as subjective. Can you honestly say you find fault with this claim? BTW, the other use of the word "loudest" is a quote by a player from the 49ers, and he states it is "one of the loudest", not THE loudest. So, which of these two statements do you specifically have issue with?
- As you can see, I have not shirked any responsibilities. I did make certain assumptions about my audience, but I suppose I misjudged you, so I've gone ahead and spelled everything out. I hope this helps. Oh yes, and as I mentioned about the nebulous quality of being the loudest - how do you measure this? Loudest peak noise, which can be held by a stadium with lackadaisical fans that just happens to be built at the end of an airport runway. Maybe we should judge by average level of noise, which can be held by a stadium with fans who simply keep a constant din about, but never any truly fanatical peak. Should we measure at the center of the 50 yard line, or in the stands, or at either teams bench, or from some point outside, or some inaccessible point in mid air above the field? And do you measure for just one game, or average out over the season? Maybe the average of two seasons? Five seasons, or a decade, or for the entire history of the stadium? Do we rule out stadium speaker noise? How do we account for and compensate for noise other than that made by fans? There are way to many variables in the equation. If you want one, definitive, accurately measured absolute champion, then you have to define all of this, and even then your claim won't be for the "loudest stadium in the NFL", but rather "loudest stadium based upon peak of fan-created noise as measured from visiting team bench for 3 out of 8 home NFL games", and that's just not very catchy - really doesn't read well on the jumbotron.
- In closing - and this isn't just to you, truthiness, but really I address this to anyone who comes to this talk page, or to the talk page of the Qwest Field article (which, coincidently, also doesn't reference it's claim to loudest stadium, but I don't wish to harp on that), or really any other similar article, and ask - why does it really matter to you? Are you really trying to ensure accuracy (a measure which I am fully satisfied that this article meets), or are you playing your own version of homerism? Does the claim in this article to how loud the fans are somehow detract from the similar claims in the article for the stadium of your favorite team? I'm thinking it is high time we gave this a rest. --Reverend Loki 15:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Man, I write a nice, friendly response, and you come back with a reply that is dangerously close to a personal attack. Man, no respect anymore. First off, you were right the first time - the plural of "stadium" is "stadiums" - stadia is the Latin plural, and best applied to multiples of Roman/Greek track-and-field venues, or rarely as a unit of measure for distance. Secondly, it's not my claim... it's the claim of many, many people. Do a quick Google for "loudest stadium in the NFL". How many Arrowhead references do you see, as opposed to Qwest references? There's even a few Mile High references. Now, do me a favor and do a search of this article for the word "loudest". You will find that this word appears exactly twice. The first time, it is in the sentence:
- Your suggestion that I should "find each and every source that says so and get them to retract their statements" is absolutely ridiculous. The onus is on you to come up with a credible source for your very questionable claim. I suspect that you cannot find even one objective source (published since the newer stadia have opened) that would suggest that Arrowhead is the loudest outdoor stadium in the league. But I commend you on your attempt to shirk your responsibility.--Truthiness 07:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Not that this moves the argument forward one bit, but I see your cries for factuality, and I look at your nickname, and I can't help but smile. Anyways, the tone and bias of the article has been turned way down, and the article does not make any unsubstantiated claims, nor is it being used to argue any controversial points. It is merely serving as an encyclopedic repository for info gleaned elsewhere. If you want Chiefs fans (and many, many non-fans, as well) to stop claiming Arrowhead reigns as loudest stadium in the NFL, then go find each and every source that says so and get them to retract their statements. This isn't the place to make those arguments. --Reverend Loki 23:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- Because of its large upper deck canopies (which deflect crowd noise back to the field), Quest Field is almost certainly louder than Arrowhead Stadium. The entry for Arrowhead Stadium is soaked in homerism, more than any other Wikipedia stadia entry I've seen, and it suffers for it.--Truthiness 22:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- I can agree with you about "lore", but that doesn't "prove" anything. Was there an independant study done to determine this? I think the word "proven" needs to be replaced with something like "it was been considered the loudest" or something of the nature. Also, adding that Sports Illustrated has Arrowhead at #1 because of crowd noise, when they don't even mention it at all, might be pushing it. On the flip side, SI writes, "No team uses home-field noise to its advantage better than the Seahawks. The Giants had 11 false-start penalties during a trip to Seattle this season. The Seahawks have won 22 of their last 25 home games."source Arrowhead may have had the "loudest stadium" title these past years, but since 2002(when it was built) and especially lately, the loudest stadium has been Qwest Field. Seattle fans are nuts, dating back to the Kingdome when the NFL imposed the "Kingdome Rule", where the home team could draw penalties for crowd noise.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.227.156.73 (talk) 18:24, 17 October 2006.
I'll try to address the issues you raised one by one.
- "Man, I write a nice, friendly response, and you come back with a reply that is dangerously close to a personal attack. Man, no respect anymore."
Your comment that I should "go find each and every source that says so and get them to retract their statements" seems a tad antagonistic, doesn't it?
- "Oh yes, and as I mentioned about the nebulous quality of being the loudest - how do you measure this? Loudest peak noise, which can be held by a stadium with lackadaisical fans that just happens to be built at the end of an airport runway. Maybe we should judge by average level of noise, which can be held by a stadium with fans who simply keep a constant din about, but never any truly fanatical peak. Should we measure at the center of the 50 yard line, or in the stands, or at either teams bench, or from some point outside, or some inaccessible point in mid air above the field? And do you measure for just one game, or average out over the season? Maybe the average of two seasons? Five seasons, or a decade, or for the entire history of the stadium? Do we rule out stadium speaker noise? How do we account for and compensate for noise other than that made by fans? There are way to many variables in the equation."
You essentially proved my point. It is such a subjective statement that it shouldn't even be in an encyclopedia entry. It makes the entry look amateurish. At best, it earns this entry a "weasel word" disclaimer at the top. Furthermore, you know very well that any claim that Arrowhead is still the loudest venue in the NFL is outdated. At some point, I will try to edit the passage to better reflect that the passage is conjecture.
- "Does the claim in this article to how loud the fans are somehow detract from the similar claims in the article for the stadium of your favorite team? I'm thinking it is high time we gave this a rest."
For the record, I don't have a favorite NFL team. It's convenient for you to ask for a cease fire in this debate because you have yet to come up with a decent argument as to why the statement should still be in the entry. All you have done is lash out at those who question what you think should be taken for granted. And, yes, your Google search falls short of the level of hard evidence.--Truthiness 16:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- If you want to address specific points, please address the questions - Which of the two statements that include the word "loudest" do you specifically object to? Why? Hell, point out where this article makes the claim that Arrowhead is the loudest. That's all I'm asking. You are charging at windmills, ranting about phantoms that do not exist. And I believe what you have interpreted as "lashing out" is just a statement I made directed towards the numerous wikipedians who come in here from time to time to rail against anything suggesting that their home team/stadium/whatever is not the best in every little way. if you truly are not one of these, then so be it. You've just picked up the confrontational style of one of these persons - my mistake. Lastly, I've had it with your personal accusations that I am trying to shirk some duty - if you want to improve the article, then great, come on in, cooperate with all the others who are trying to do the same. But if you just want to stir up conflict, don't expect any more responses. Personally, I would prefer the former. --Reverend Loki 16:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- The following statement in the entry is a textbook case of using weasel words:
- "Arrowhead has long been considered to be the loudest outdoor stadium in the NFL: the fans often reach sound levels of over 120 decibels, which is as loud as a jet airliner taking off."
- Fourth grade physics would suggest that Qwest Field is "louder" than Arrowhead Stadium. If you want me to find evidence that Quest Field is louder than 120 decibels, I will do that. Truthfully, I'm not a Seahawks fan, but the team and the stadium's architects should be given credit for creating a design that maximizes crowd noise, likely making it the noisiest outdoor venue in pro football.--Truthiness 16:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, now we're making progress - the attitude isn't quite there (fourth grade physics?). Still, take what you can get. Anyways, yes, I can see where you might have that issue with the statement. - though used appropriately here, those words have often been used as weasel words. The spirit behind that statement is that this stadium has a reputation for being the loudest, is notorious for being the loudest. This also gives us the chance to get rid of an ugly colon (it should have been a semicolon anyways) by breaking it into two separate sentences. For the first part of that sentence, how does something like "Arrowhead has long held a reputation for being one of, if not arguably the, loudest stadiums in the NFL." This is a statement that is a bit more explicit in detail and should be easy enough to document. I'll spend some time later digging through some old SI articles - I know I've seen that much mentioned several times. Anyways, the second part will be a bit more difficult - I don't doubt it reaches 120 dB or more on a regular basis (personal experience - when you can't make out what the person next to you is yelling at full volume), but that's not only OR, but I somehow never think to bring a meter to the game. I would say that "often" would actually be an accurate modifier, if not very specific - as far as I know, no NFL crowd sound level is measured and recorded with any regularity, just occasionally, for the novelty of it. If there was some sort of database on this obscure stat, that would solve a lot of the problem. In the meantime, we can instead simply state something to the effects that "fan generated noise has been metered over 120 dB...". I'd say keep the jet engine reference, as it helps to lend perspective. So, comments? --Reverend Loki 17:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. Thanks for the changes.--12.171.255.2 20:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, now we're making progress - the attitude isn't quite there (fourth grade physics?). Still, take what you can get. Anyways, yes, I can see where you might have that issue with the statement. - though used appropriately here, those words have often been used as weasel words. The spirit behind that statement is that this stadium has a reputation for being the loudest, is notorious for being the loudest. This also gives us the chance to get rid of an ugly colon (it should have been a semicolon anyways) by breaking it into two separate sentences. For the first part of that sentence, how does something like "Arrowhead has long held a reputation for being one of, if not arguably the, loudest stadiums in the NFL." This is a statement that is a bit more explicit in detail and should be easy enough to document. I'll spend some time later digging through some old SI articles - I know I've seen that much mentioned several times. Anyways, the second part will be a bit more difficult - I don't doubt it reaches 120 dB or more on a regular basis (personal experience - when you can't make out what the person next to you is yelling at full volume), but that's not only OR, but I somehow never think to bring a meter to the game. I would say that "often" would actually be an accurate modifier, if not very specific - as far as I know, no NFL crowd sound level is measured and recorded with any regularity, just occasionally, for the novelty of it. If there was some sort of database on this obscure stat, that would solve a lot of the problem. In the meantime, we can instead simply state something to the effects that "fan generated noise has been metered over 120 dB...". I'd say keep the jet engine reference, as it helps to lend perspective. So, comments? --Reverend Loki 17:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- The following statement in the entry is a textbook case of using weasel words:
All right, there we go... modified the wording, and hopefully made it flow just a tad better in the process. Any other thoughts? --Reverend Loki 05:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
- There is no stadium in the NFL that gets louder than Qwest Field. Unlike your speculation, I have substance to my argument. Take a look at the number of false starts called against an opposing team since 2005. Qwest Field is in first place with 50. The Metrodome is in second with 38, Giants Stadium is third with 35, and Soldier Field and Ivesco Field are tied for fourth with 33.
Evidence (and some interesting quotes): http://www.seahawks.com/uploadedFiles/Seahawks_Content/12_Zone/ad_color_color.pdf
Now, seeing as how crowd noise and false starts are directly related, one can assume that Arrowhead is thoroughly owned. It might have been the loudest, but it's been dethroned. Seattle fans are nuts.
- There is a correlation between crowd noise and false starts, yes, in that an increase in noise does often lead to more false starts, but there's many more contributing factors that need to be considered. For instance, most of the time, Seattle only has to play host to inferior NFC teams, whereas KC has to host more vastly superior AFC teams ;) OK, all joking aside, you have to admit the NFC West hasn't yet rebuilt their once proud dominance of the 80s yet, while the AFC West, even with the Raiders, is viewed as one of the toughest. And of course, your team plays each team in your own conference twice a year in the regular season, and other teams at most once. Interestingly enough, the Chiefs, a team which struggled for second in the AFC West, played every team in the NFC West this season, and went 4-0.
- All that aside, the point I keep making, and the one no one addresses, is that if you want to definitively state one stadium is louder than another, you have to give some cold hard facts. Not about penalties, or anything like that, but decibels - average, peak, low, etc. --Reverend Loki 21:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I have flagged the two sentences which make the claim for being the loudest statment. The Sports Illustrated article does not mention crowd noise at all, so this is not a reliable source for the claim. If it is true that the stadium has "long been held..." to be one of the loudest, then it should be easy to add a source. If the sound has actually been measured in db, then that should be easy to source as well. Johntex\talk 20:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I've seen it measured higher than that before, but there's a citation for 116 dB. I'll look around later for more references. If someone wants to link to a better source for the article I listed, go right ahead. The other citation request should be easier to find, I just can't get to it right now. I know I've seen it stated a few dozen times in articles. --Reverend Loki 22:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Go to Google, type "Loudest NFL Stadium", click "I Feel Lucky." Case closed. September 25, 2007
Arrowhead still IS the loudest roofless, outdoor stadium. Unlike Qwest field in Seattle, Arrowhead does not have the benefit of a roof, even a partial roof to funnel the noise back into the stadium. Remove the roof from Qwest, or add a similar roof to Arrowhead it is unlikely that Qwest would even come close because of two things. Capacity would be the biggest, since Arrowhead holds considerably more fans than Qwest does. the other is the fact that Arrowhead's fans, all 80,000 of them are closer to the field than they are at Qwest. Modern building codes prevent ANY new stadium from being able to seat 80,000 fans as close to the field as Arrowhead does.With that said, BOTH stadiums get insanely loud as both of them have been measured well above 120 decibels before. The bottom line is the opposing team's offense can't hear ANYTHING, nor can anybody else for that matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.237.239.40 (talk) 17:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Renovation Question
Do you guys think that LED fascia board(s) will be installed in Arrowehead in 2007?--BigMac1212 20:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- What, like the new displays flanking the scoreboard behind the visitors bench? I don't know if there are similar ones on the home side, as I just didn't look back and up, but I'll have to next time... --Reverend Loki 21:22, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- As of 2020, all "screens" are updated. They are fully functional in sunlight as well as night. The heating issues in the bar area is gone with the new screens. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 19:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Loudest stadiums
- CenturyLink Field ... roofed
- Arrowhead Stadium ... outside
- Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome ... domed
Just a note. J. D. Redding 02:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Inacurate information
Arrowhead Stadium is actually the fifth largest nfl stadium
1. MetLife Stadium 2. Cowboys Stadium 3. FedEx Field 4. Mercedes-Benz SuperDome 5. Arrowhead Stadium Thank You