Talk:Askeran clash

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Needs more info[edit]

What exactly is this clash? When did it take place? By having half the entire article be a quote from a book, it's kind of a copyright violation. Please give readers more details and summarize your sources instead of quoting them. howcheng {chat} 04:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I changed some things around. Artaxiad 04:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to rewrite it in a way that would be more easily understood, but since I know nothing about Azerbaijani history, I can't exactly tell if I have any of the facts wrong. howcheng {chat} 06:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nice job, but Sumgait is very important to this article it shouldn't be removed. Artaxiad 19:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't remove it -- it was right there in the opening sentence. And having the link text be Sumgait Pogram makes more sense than just Sumgait because it's an event and not a location. I was trying to get rid of the big quote because having half the article not be original text is not a good thing. As you have it, if I don't already know what the Askeran clash is, the opening paragraph just doesn't make much sense. Please read Wikipedia:Lead section and Wikipedia:Manual of Style. You know, I really have no vested interest in this article and this is about all I'm willing to fight for, so if this really is how you want it, I'll just let it go; my only interest is improving the overall quality of the encyclopedia. howcheng {chat} 19:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't mean the quote exactly, you can add it back up if you want. Artaxiad 19:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Context[edit]

For people with no background, some information about what Sumgait was and why is was important would be a very useful addition to the intro, or later in the article. --Peta 05:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not about events in Sumgait, it is about the first violent episode of the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan that resulted in death of 2 Azerbaijanis. Situation escalated after that. Grandmaster 10:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"20th century Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict." Do we live in 26th century? How do we know it was the first direct clash. Vartanm 07:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster, you lie when you have told that "it was the first violent episode of the conflict". I would not speak about previous war, but I want to mention that the first violence was earlier on a village Chardahlu which was at the September 1987. Unfortunatly the English version is empty, but those who know history, they know that in Chardahlu, armenian populated village was the first violence of the conflict. With the best regards --Ліонкінг (talk) 20:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Updates[edit]

Removing POV, unsourced, misattributed and inflammatory text added by banned user Artaxiad. Added categories where this fits. Article needs some more serious work with references. Atabek 11:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These are some pretty radical changes, including even changing whose demonstrations led directly to the Askeran clash, but without adding or changing any references. I'm reverting parts of it and cleaning up the grammar, the article in general and some POV issues as well. If you're going to change the meaning/information so dramatically, please include relevant quotes. --RaffiKojian 03:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, nevertheless, the edit added substantial amount of single-sided POV. The conflict is Armenian-Azerbaijani, not between Armenians and Azerbaijan. Karabakh was not the only front in the war. Atabek 05:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added reference to the article by Rutland. Atabek 06:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Raffi - intro should give info about askeran clash not about Sumgayit. secondly, you should also produce references.--Dacy69 19:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good changes, but perhaps the entire "background" section now needs to be broken up. As for references, I'm quite certain they're in the Sumgait pograms article for the taking. Also do we still need the article tagged fro context? The background explains a bit of what was going on. --RaffiKojian 11:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Raffi, if you agree that those were good changes why were you reverting the article in the first place? The page is for Askeran clashes only, Sumgayit has a separate page devoted to it. Atabek 15:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

POV project tag removed per [1]. Atabek (talk) 07:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Askeran clash[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Askeran clash's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "dewaal":

From Nagorno-Karabakh: de Waal, Thomas (2003). Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War. New York: New York University Press. ISBN 0-8147-1945-7.
From Operation Goranboy: De Waal, Thomas (2003). Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War. New York: New York University Press. pp. 195–211. ISBN 0-8147-1945-7.
From Nagorno-Karabakh War: De Waal, Thomas (2003). Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War. New York: New York University Press. pp. passim. ISBN 0-8147-1945-7.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 21:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relevance and appropriateness of first sentence in body[edit]

The question that continues to be ducked is "What relevance does the first sentence in the body have with the article?" Leaving alone the partisan nature of the sentence and the fact that its testimony is hinged on the word of a single individual, let's read the information within the context of Thomas de Waal's framing of the Askeran clash (Black Garden, New York, 2003, pp. 14-15):

How much violence occurred during those days will probably never be known because the authorities pursued a concerted policy to cover up any incidents. But, in one example, something nasty, if not fully explained, did happen among the trainee student teachers of the Pedagogical Institute in Stepanakert. In the Azerbaijani capital Baku during the second week of the protest, the historian Arif Yunusov and a colleague, both of whom were already collecting information on events, were called to the city’s Republican Hospital. Apparently, two Azerbaijani girls from Stepanakert had been raped. At the hospital, the head doctor denied the two academics access to the girls. The hospital nurses, however, confirmed that “these girls had come from the Pedagogic Institute in Stepanakert, that there had been a fight or an attack on their hostel. The girls were raped. They were in a bad way.”

De Waal continues:

Two days after the local Soviet’s resolution, angry protests took place in the Azerbaijani town of Aghdam. Aghdam is a large town twenty-five kilometers east of Stepanakert, down in the plain of Azerbaijan. On 22 February, a crowd of angry young men set out from Aghdam toward Stepanakert. When they reached the Armenian village of Askeran, they were met by a cordon of policemen and a group of Armenian villagers, some of whom carried hunting rifles. The two sides fought, and people on both sides were wounded. Two of the Azerbaijanis were killed. A local policeman very probably killed one of the dead men, twenty-three-year-old Ali Hajiev, either by accident or as a result of a quarrel. The other, sixteen-year-old Bakhtiar Uliev, appears to have been the victim of an Armenian hunting rifle. If so, Uliev was the first victim of intercommunal violence in the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict.

Now, nowhere in the sequence of the events is it asserted by either the author or the people he interviewed that the alleged rapes were direct causes for the Askeran clash, which, if some have forgotten, is what this article is about. As is clear from the opening paragraph, De Waal is chronicling the first reported acts of violence in Nagorno-Karabakh following the region's decision to unite with Armenia. The link between the nurses in Stepanakert and the mob from Aghdam is never established, which means that attempts to shoehorn such a connection are nothing more than attempts at original research and synthesis. I have pointed this fact out in my initial edits yet I have been reverted. I'll pose the question again: is there evidence in neutral, third-party sources that confirm that news of the rapes set off the clash at Askeran?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:07, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for discussing this matter. First of all, it should be noted that you have changed your approach towards the fact of raping. In your first reverts, you called this fact to be "rumor". But now, as you are asking about clarity about if there is any connection between rapings and clashes, then my direct answer is yes. Let me explain. For Caucasus region, raping of woman of any particular ethnic group by other nationals has always been a challange for retaliation. Locations of crime and clashes are not far from each other. Also, De Waal in his book reveals that most of the ethnic crimes before this clash have been covered up by the authorities, but this one is only fact that publicly known. I suggest us not to repeat the manners of Soviet authorities and demonstrate all possible reasons of these brutal clash. --Verman1 (talk) 10:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I originally had assumed good faith and thought that De Waal was speaking about the rapes in connection to the clash in Askeran. After I re-read that part I saw that was not the case. As shown above, he was talking about two entirely unrelated incidents in a section devoted entirely to the first instances of violence in the region. The two paragraphs follow one another but nowhere is it indicated that the events are related. Your answer ducks my question and comes off sounding like original research. I will ask it just one more time and ask for a simple yes or no: is there evidence in neutral, third-party sources that confirm that news of the rapes had any real, tangible connection to the clash at Askeran? If so, please present them.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:28, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

De Waal refers to numerous incidents of sexual abuses. In pages 34, 35, 110, 299, 300 he mentions about Armenian women being raped, including raped and killed. Why exactly did Verman1 pick this incident if there is no evident connection with Askeran clash in the source? --va c io 18:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with MarshallBagramyan here, the rapes seem irrelevant to this article. --George Spurlin (talk) 06:41, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties[edit]

@Nocturnal781, I removed "The total number of Armenian casualties are estimated to be anywhere from 50-100." because I checked the source and it did not contain that information. If you unintentionally cited the wrong source - feel free to restore statement back with the proper one. Thanks! A b r v a g l^(PingMe) 20:15, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]