Talk:Association football/Archive 5

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Proposed move to soccer

This should be moved to soccer for the same reason that check (finance) was moved to cheque (to get rid of the unnecessary () in the title). Before voting oppose, have a look at Talk:Cheque. We don't need a () in the title of this article. 64.194.45.67 00:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~

The last vote for this proposed move was in Feb and the result was a Strong Oppose - see above. The proposer is and anon IP. I don't think this proposal has any legitimacy and should be removed. Jooler 17:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC) - note this comment was removed by Jet Engines

Talk%3AFootball_%28soccer%29&diff=50765395&oldid=50764663 - Jooler 18:14, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

According to your logic then, we should move cheque back to check (finance) as proposing it to be moved to cheque didn't have any legitimacy even though it removed the brackets from the title like moving this article to soccer would. Obviously soccer and cheque are better titles than football (soccer) and check (finance) because they avoid the brackets. Are you trying to say it's better to have brackets in titles?- anon

How do you work that out? Jooler 18:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• Support for reasons stated above. Jet Engines 17:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Opport Groot foot 18:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose This has been debated to death and the concensus of editors is already known. The horse is dead. Please stop flogging it. Alias Flood 21:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose Much of the world calls it soccer. Much of the world calls it football. There is no consensus on the name, so this was the agreed format. Is there no end to this flaming issue being dug every all the time? The decision has been taken. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 21:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)}
• Strongly Oppose over and over and over again Bob Palin 23:50, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose --Philip Baird Shearer 14:02, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--Aldux 16:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--this continued back-and-forth suggests the need for some new kind of permanent-vote procedure. Maybe we could all just vote for any options once-and-for-all, and leave our votes there; with the article moving only if the cumulative numbers shift significantly enough to merit a namechange; rather than everyone having to trudge back to vote every time some other person with a chip on their shoulder has the same bright idea of calling yet another vote. jnestorius^(talk) 20:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose better proposal below --Henrygb 00:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. And I would personally have the association football article at "Football". Association football is taking over the world. Skinnyweed 16:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Move to football

This article belongs at football. Goorf 00:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~

• Comment: This was previously proposed. The result was Oppose. Please refer to Talk:Football (soccer)/(archive 1) Zzyzx11 (Talk) 00:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
  • That was years ago though. Goorf 17:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Confusing to most people who don't live in the United Kingdom. Football means totally different things to most people in places outside of the UK. Jet Engines 17:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Reasons for the current name have not changed since the last move proposal above. --Allen3 ^talk 17:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Right location for the article. Foor 18:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• comment - Personally I believe this article would be better as Association football - it has much more legitimacy than Football (soccer) and avoids the brackets. Jooler 18:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Suppose you state your rationale for the move less concisely than "This article belongs at football". --Dodo bird 18:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Opport Groot foot 18:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Comment This proposal was previously removed as a bad faith nom as the proposer has made no edits other than to request this move. It is not possible to move to football as there is already a page there, and a currently protected one at that. Changes to the name of this page have been proposed several times previously, each time the consensus has been to keep the article at football (soccer). Oldelpaso 18:31, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. No one in the United States who isn't a fan of U.K. terminology knows the sport as football. If the consensus ends up as move, I absolutely 100% suggest putting a header saying "This article is about soccer in the United States or football in Britain. For football in the United States, see American football." Georgia guy 19:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Your header will have to include Australia, New Zealand and Canada. NSWelshman 16:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. Stick with the status quo. This has been discussed and voted on before.--Clawed 21:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose Much of the world calls it soccer. Much of the world calls it football. many people worldwide use football to refer to other sports. There is no consensus on the name, so this was the agreed format. Is there no end to this flaming issue being dug every all the time? The decision has been taken. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 21:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)}
• Strongly oppose This is settled. There are too many different and popular footballs to set aside the name for just one. Xtra 22:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose over and over and over again Bob Palin 23:50, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. No, no, no, no. English is spoken in many countries and the game is called soccer in many of those. Grant65 | Talk 09:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose agreed with Oldelpaso, and Jtdirl. --Philip Baird Shearer 14:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose and see my plea for sanity in the foregoing vote. jnestorius^(talk) 20:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Neither England nor the U.S.A. own stock on the term "football" and as such, the present arrangement of a football page explaining the various derivations of the term is appropriate, which this article is a viable concession towards both sides of the issue IMHO. NetK 22:25, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Note the interwiki links from Football (soccer). Except for Gaelic, Afrikaans and Italian, none disambiguate: the rest are "Football" or a calque. --Henrygb 00:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Does this comment mean you support a move to football?? Georgia guy 00:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose, I'm a fan of 'Association football' myself --Robdurbar 23:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. I too think it should be moved to 'Association Football'. Football (Soccer) is inconsistent with the articles for every other football code. If we can't get this changed I suggest every other code of football be changed to this format... ie Football (Rugby) NSWelshman 16:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. On this side of the pond, football is played with helmets and pads. This is not uk.wikipedia.org. Kirjtc2 18:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Additional comments

• Strongly Support - to Kirjtc2, Wikipedia is NOT a nationalist website. You may note that many articles on Wikipedia use English spellings and terms, for example aubergine. Football was invented in the UK and it's name is used in all other languages too where football is much more popular of a sport than in the US. I do although support Association Football as a second choice as it is an official name.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.109.186.127 (talk • contribs) 06:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC).

Association Football

I think its now clear that Football (soccer) is more popular - and rightly so - than football or soccer. But do people feel a move to Association Football should occur? Rather than proposing it, I thought I'd see what scope there is. The advantage, to me, is that it is a name for the sport that everyone agrees on, and avoids over-disambiguation in the title. --Robdurbar 08:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

This is the official name of the sport and will bring this article in line with the naming convention used by every other football article. The latter I see as the most important reason. Using Football (Soccer) appears to be some sort of comprimise sought by those who would like the entire world to view this sport as football. NSWelshman 12:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

By every other football article I mean those articles about the various codes of football, not ancilliary articles to this one. Exaples are Rugby Football, Australian Football, Rugby League, Rugby Union, American Football, Canadian Football and Gaelic Football. NSWelshman 12:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Apparently you can't read, all this has been discussed many times before and the current compromise has been reached, let it go! Bob Palin 15:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

It's called soccer to a great many people. Other forms of football are termed "(adjective) football" when disambiguation is needed, this isn't. Kirjtc2 15:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey hey, don't start voting when there isn't a poll request. I'm removing the previous 'votes' so that others don't do the voting thing too.--Dodo bird 16:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh god. Not this yet again. This page is getting more and more like groundhog day. Oh god. Not this yet again. This page is getting more and more like groundhog day. Oh god. Not this yet again. This page is getting more and more like groundhog day . . .

Yes. You can see the logic. Move the page from a name with the two names that are used worldwide to one that is only used by a tiny minority of insiders in the game. Too bad the MoS requires we follow most common name, not most obscure name used by a tiny number which most won't recognise. Now can we please stop discussing this stuff. After 20 times revisiting the issue and rejecting it every time it is now a tad boring. Maybe we should have a vote on this page on banning votes on this page for a least a year. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 22:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)}

To be fair, this isn't a vote, I was just testing the water; its clear the issue is decided; I'll not ask for people's opinion again. Robdurbar 08:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

If it can't be at football (and clearly it can't) then I've always felt that it should be at association football, because that is the full unambiguaous name after all. Football (soccer) was a compromise fudge (and a bad one in my opinion) reached after some heated debate a very long time ago, and it's probably too late to chage it now. But personally it make me cringe everytime I see football (soccer), or any other term using bracketed 'British(et al)/American (et al)' naming, see talk:London Underground re full stop. Note this is just my opinion. Like Robdurbar I have no intention of calling a vote. Jooler 10:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. If something is known by different names you don't just tag the title with the alternate name. You mention it in the opening line. You don't put the Groundhog article at Groundhog (Woodchuck a.k.a. Whistlepig). You say 'groundhog, also known as blah blah blah.' Obviously Groundhog doesn't have the problem that Football has in that no other thing is called groundhog other than groundhogs. But between the 'compromise fudge' Football (soccer) and the lesser known official term Association football, I'm inclined to go with the latter. --Dodo bird 12:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with FearEireann that current MoS requires "most common name". I also believe "Association football" would be the best name. Therefore I believe the current MoS naming guidelines are flawed and should be changed. Unless and until that happens, this page cannot move. As a general point about Wikipedia, I believe issues should always be decided with reference to the MoS; where the MoS has no relevant policy, one should be created. Only a small minority of Wikipedians have a particular interest in any particular page, even a very popular page. That minority cannot vote themselves an exemption from MoS policy simply because they see their pet interest as somehow exceptional. Fight to change the MoS. You never know what other obscure Talk-page debates may have similar issues (and maybe even found better resolutions). jnestorius^(talk) 12:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with FearEireann, leave it as it is - these continual renaming debates are interminable. If "Football (soccer)" offends you, then for god's sake use the pipe trick so it'll appear as "Football". Just don't bring this up again for at least three years, please. -- Arwel (talk) 23:58, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately we still end up with awful article titles like History of football (soccer) and List of football (soccer) players. Jooler 03:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Joe, given that the MoS requires most common name, why do you want to use the least common one? I don't follow the logic. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 00:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)}

There are exceptions to every rule they say and in this case I think it's true, which is why we have an article called gramophone record and not record (audio). I think this is similar. Jooler 01:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

We're supposed to be using the most common name then why are we displaying the most common and second most common names? There has to be an exception to the rule in this case for obvious reasons so who cares if we're breaking it by displaying two names for the sport or by using the sport's official name? In any case, redirects and disambig pages can sort out any potential conflict so I really don't understand the problem. Most peopole I know are referring to Rugby League when they use the term Football. Does that mean that article should be called Football (Rugby League)? NSWelshman 15:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

There is no one MCN. There are two. Parts of the world never call it football — they use that term for other codes. Parts of the world never call it soccer. This name was agreed with an overwhelming consensus because it uses a name that includes the two names used and so is universally recognised. Association Football in contrast is only used by a tiny minority. So it fails the MCN rule and is not an option. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 18:45, 6 May 2006 (UTC)}

How about we just stop this debate, accept the name of Football (soccer), and get on with making the articles better for others. Are people who do research going to care what the title is (considering we have redirects)? No. Does arguing make the articles better? No. This whole debate is a waste of valubable time we could be investing in other things.--M Johnson (talk • contribs) 00:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It is getting tedious constantly having this issue being brought up. Maybe we should have one more vote, to ban votes on renaming this page for at least a year. lol FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 00:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)}

except assosiation football isn't a term just used by a tiny minority. It is THE accepted term by much of the world, just look at the names of all the professional teams- none of them call themselves a soccer team, most either just use football or assosiation football.

Soccer is a rather horrible slang term that just confirms wikipedia's heavy American bias- something we really should be working to eliminate--128.240.229.3 12:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

So instead of having an American bias it should have a European bias? Kirjtc2 04:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Firstly soccer is not an Americanism. It is used the world over. The Irish organisation I work mainly for has a "soccer team" (the company's description). Secondly Association football is used by an tiny minority. That when soccer clubs are named they formally use the name in the title is irrelevant. A lot of clubs are called Wanderers — it doesn't mean they wander around the place. And some of the most divided clubs in leagues are called United. The issue is common usage: do ordinary people say "Association Football"? The answer is they don't. In some parts of the world they call it "football". In other places they call it "soccer". Neither is dominant. So Wikipedia rightly decided that it was necessary, to avoid confusion, to use both names in the title. That is the decision. It has been voted on over and over and over again by those trying to call it "football". Every single time they lose hands down. Given the results of every single vote held here, the name of the article isn't going to change. You are simply going to have to get used to it. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 05:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)}

Whether you like it or not, it is more commonly called "football". "Soccer", although the term originated in England, is only used in North America and small areas of other countries. In foreign schools British English (or Internation English as Microsoft call it) is taught to the pupils, so "football" will be the word of choice. I really don't see an argument hear. In my opinion the article should stay as "Football (soccer)" or "Association Football", but suggesting the word "soccer" is used anywhere near as much is ridiculous. The only viable reason for soccer to stay in the title is because North Americans make up a large part of the English language Wikipedia, and in American English that is the word used to describe to this sport. However, under no circumstances should the article name change to "soccer", as it is only a minority that call it this in the scheme of things. -- MichaelJBuck 15:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

"Small areas of other countries"? No, see football (word). For example, soccer is the common name in Australian English (source: The Macquarie Dictionary, 2005) and New Zealand English also and this originated from British rather than American influence.

Having grown up knowing and enjoying the game as "soccer", I find the antipathy of some soccer fans to the word soccer somewhat bewildering. Can someone explain it to me? Grant65 | Talk 04:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Attempting to alleviate your bewilderment. Of course like all prejudices, some things are only half true, but this is my perception of why people hate the word.

1. Soccer is perceived by most football fans as a horrible slang word and a cousin of the word rugger.
2. Soccer is perceived by many (albeit incorrectly) as an Americanism.
3. Soccer is perceived by some as a word invented by toffs, (like rugger) and is shunned by working class football fans.
4. Soccer is perceived by many as an alien word and is just not part of the normal vocabulary of most football fans.

Perhaps ironically, of the 4 above reasons, probably the strongest objection is the one that is actually wrong, it i.e. that it is an Americanism. A lot of Brits just hate that whole Americanisation thing. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/yourvoice/language_change.shtml#A - I have to admit it's a pet peeve of mine. I'm a programmer and I just hate it when I have to program and uses words like color, canceled and dispatch. It also drives me bonkers when I'm installing software and it gives me the option of "English (American)", but not "English (British)". Also if you install MS Word (or even the operating system) it defaults to American English and you have to make a conscious effort to change the dictionary to British English (and the letter format to A4 but that's another story), and most naive users either don't know how to do this or can't be bothered. At the end of the day there is a spread of Americanisms creeping across the Atlantic and the use of this word is seen as part of it. If the Yanks didn’t use the word then perhaps people wouldn’t care so much, but then again if that were the case then perhaps it’s usage would be even less common here too. Jooler 13:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'd just like to point out that not all us Brits take such an Anti-American attiude. --Robdurbar 15:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Soccer is used in the US exclusively, Ireland predominantly, and to a significant extent in most of Europe, South America, Africa, Australia, New Zealand and other places. I don't who where Michael got the idea that soccer is primarily a US term. That is simply incorrect. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 04:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)}

I did a double take when I saw "Europe" there, but in fact you are right: e.g. English language material from the French diplomatic corps,[1] the Italian news agency ANSA[2] and the German national broadcaster Deutsche Welle all refer to "soccer"[3]. Grant65 | Talk 03:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

You speak a lot of crap. Name me European countries that call it soccer. Very, very few, if any, do. I really don't know where you got that idea. It is primarily a US term, although as I said it was created by the English. For the argument about Australia etc, take note that the whole continent of Oceania only has 1 million more people than the UK alone. Europe has a population of half a billion, and they are taught British English as their foreign English language. The vast majority of countries that were in the British Empire also use the term football too. Including India, with a population of over a billion. Get your facts straight before stating biased, misinformed rubbish. MichaelJBuck 22:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I just demonstrated that English language material from three (continental) European governments does sometimes use the word "soccer". Whats the big deal? It's well known that some Europeans tend towards American English rather than British English (or other varieties of English). Grant65 | Talk 03:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey everybody chill. Look, Soccer is used all over the place from time to time, BUT it is generally considered slang outside of the few countries where it has some official usage. Jooler 09:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

>A lot of Brits just hate that whole Americanisation thing :see Inferiority complex —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jebus Of Nazareth (talk • contribs) 21:19, 9 June 2006.

^ Sign your name please. MichaelJBuck 20:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As I said, Soccer is used in the US exclusively, Ireland predominantly, and to a significant extent in most of Europe, South America, Africa, Australia, New Zealand and other places. I don't who where Michael got the idea that soccer is primarily a US term. That is simply incorrect. Michael can be in denial all he wants and leave messages on my talk page telling me to stop saying it, but it remains a fact, as people who know the sport, and as the various associations admit, because they too use it intermittently. Even the English FA has on occasion. It has something it calls soccer parent which it defines on its own website with the words "Soccer Parent is designed with coaches and parents in mind to provide guidance on specific areas that focus on the key issues involved when a child joins a football team". It also runs Soccer Star which it defines as a "unique Soccer Educational Programme" which the FA website says "consists of practices and games to learn the essential soccer techniques, together with six simple, reliable and valid tests". Britain's sporting newspaper, the Racing Post, runs a website called soccerbase.com which calls itself "The most comprehensive and up-to-date source of British football data on the Internet." So I guess that if the Football Association uses soccer sometimes, and the Racing Post does so, and both of those are British, then soccer isn't an "American" term then, is it? FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 04:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)}

Soccer is not used in Europe outside Ireland and Britain (only occasional use), nor South America nor Africa (other than South Africa and I doubt that black South Africans use it). It is a term that only Anglophones use.

It is (incorrectly) seen as an Americanism. The fact that various British organisations use the term is what annoys people. If no British group used it then there would be nothing to be annoyed about.GordyB 22:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The debate should be about how football is used in the English language. This is the English version of wikipedia and so considering that the majority of native English speakers do not use "football" for "Association football". Football should not implicitly mean Association football. Let the French, Italians, Spanish etc call it what they want but this is English. Htra0497 20:06 1st September 2006 (AET)

Anti-Soccer

Does anyone want to start a article, listing accounts of anti-soccer commentary in the media? I think it would be a good idea. There have been numerous accounts of this by people like Jim Rome, various articles in Time, Newsweek, and major newspapers. Nokhodi 22:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it's better to list the criticisms of soccer in this article, unless there are a lot of criticisms. SCHZMO ✍ 23:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Player cards

Is there an article on Wikipedia that explains how players are bought and sold? And who gets the money? Mikedelsol 10:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Transfer (football) --Robdurbar 11:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't that be at Transfer (football (soccer))? I'm outraged! —Chowbok 02:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

"Fair play rule"

Should we mention the unwritten rule were the ball is kicked over the sideline when a player is injuried, with the gesture returned with the ball thrown back once play can continue? Fornadan (t) 22:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I think an article (perhaps Fair play in football (soccer)) could be useful. There is a Fifa drive on this topic, as well as various awards and rewards given to clubs and players who play fairly. Fair play also takes different forms in different cultures. There is a lot of material for such an article.
 SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  23:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Protection

I have requested that this page be semi-protected due to the frequent vandalism that occurs to this prominent article. See Requests for page protection for more info. -- Noetic Sage 03:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Criticism added

Added a criticism section on soccer, hope it does not get deleted, but rather adjusted and expanded by people. Current focus is on failure to gain stand in USA (NA). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.70.32.136 (talk • contribs)

Some of the points you added are worth a mention on WP, but are probably more suited to somewhere like Soccer in the United States. — sjorford++ 12:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Streamlining

Kudos to Oldelpaso and others for great work in consolidating the sections in to a more streamlined and readable form. Nice work. --Daveb 09:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

soccer major area: Southern/Western Europe, South America, Mideast, Africa and Japan.