Talk:Astor House Hotel (Shanghai)

Richards' Hotel and Restaurant was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 10 April 2013 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Astor House Hotel (Shanghai). The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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Pre-1949 owners?[edit]

Have been trying to find out, without success - does anyone know? FOARP (talk) 14:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Have updated article significantly. Have added some details you may require.smjwalsh (talk) 14:01, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stub Status[edit]

This article is not a stub anymore. Does anybody want to change it? Ethan (talk) 04:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. How does that happen?(smjwalsh (talk) 07:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I upgraded to C-class. To put it any higher would require a closer examination that I don't feel qualified to give. tk tk tk 17:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup references[edit]

References are incomplete and fail to give essential publication details, and lack consistent formatting. Please fix. Viriditas (talk) 22:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give an example? They seem appropriate to me.(smjwalsh (talk) 15:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

Way too long[edit]

Lots of stuff -- perhaps it can have substantial sections moved to new articles, at the least? Each new article can be wikilinked to this one. Also exceedingly referenced. Perhaos a few are not really needed? Thanks! Collect (talk) 12:04, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As of last night (my time), article was just over 250K in length or just over 37,000 words (translates to 59 pages using PDF download facility), of which there was 20,000 words of content and 17,000 words of reference material. I have started dividing process. Created 2 history articles (1844-1858) and (1858-1959), and will create another (1959 onwards). Will probably need to divide 1858-1959 article into 3: (1858-1900), (1900-1922) and (1922-1959), as these represent ownership changes. I have created List of residents and guests article, and removed same from main article (reducing size by 20% of total). I believe the references can be reduced significantly and will work on them. There are more challenges and work involved than I initially expected so I would appreciate time to divide and shift material. However, I believe it would be OK to start reducing History section of main article until Pujiang Hotel/1959 and onwards section.(smjwalsh (talk) 23:58, 2 February 2010 (UTC)).[reply]

OK, just created 3rd Historical article covering period from 1959 onwards. Will take a break to reflect and reassess.(smjwalsh (talk) 00:26, 3 February 2010 (UTC)).[reply]

To break History article into manageable size, I have created 5 separate History articles: 1844-1858, 1858-1900, 1900-1922, 1922-1958, and 1958 onwards. These divisions coincide with change in location, ownership, or name. It would now be in order to cut down History section in main Astor House, Shanghai article.(smjwalsh (talk) 18:34, 3 February 2010 (UTC)).[reply]

Rename article[edit]

I believe the article is misnamed. It should be named Astor House Hotel (Shanghai) or Astor House Hotel, Shanghai as these two options better reflect the name of the hotel. While it is often referred to as the Astor House, the official name in English (also used commonly) is the Astor House Hotel. My preference would be Astor House Hotel (Shanghai). I would appreciate the thoughts of others.(smjwalsh (talk) 00:30, 3 February 2010 (UTC)).[reply]

Hi. I'm curious why this article isn't title Astor House Hotel (Shanghai)? And I think the Astor House Hotel article should be disambiguated? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. When I first encountered the WP article last year, it was named as it is currently. I will wait for a few more days and if there is no objection, will rename the article Astor House Hotel (Shanghai).(smjwalsh (talk) 03:05, 4 February 2010 (UTC)).[reply]

"Hotel" is not really needed - but parens are better usage to be sure. Collect (talk) 11:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think Hotel is needed in this case. It is part of the name. WP requires articles to be entitled with best known name. the NY hotel is simply Astor House. Also, can you imagine re-naming the article on Hilton Hotels just "Hilton". Do you have a strong objection to using "Hotel" in title or is it OK to change title to "Astor House Hotel (Shanghai)"?. If we use parentheses, there ought to be less need for a disambiguation page.(smjwalsh (talk) 13:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)).[reply]

Upon reflection, I believe this article should be called Astor House Hotel. While there is already an article by that name Astor House Hotel referring to a hotel in Colorado started in 1867, it is now a museum. The current AHH article should be renamed Astor House Hotel (Colorado). My reasons for renaming this article AHH are 1. The Shanghai hotel is older (known by the Astor name since 1859) and has had the name AHH longer; 2. It is better-known (more notable). A google search would quickly reveal that. 3. It is operative under that name, while the other is inoperative.(smjwalsh (talk) 13:53, 6 February 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Labor of love still needs cleanup[edit]

I was amazed by the detail of one of the copies of this page on the internet and love the idea. Just love the detail, love the attention. It's still a mess.

Moving forward:

I've added dablinks to the top of the Astor House and Astor House (Colorado) articles and turned Astor House Hotel into a disambig, so that part is fixed until the addition of pages on the Hankow and other Astor Houses require more editing.
There were three establishments: the pages should be renamed to reflect that. Already moved the infelicitously-named History of the Astor House Hotel (Shanghai) 1844 to 1858 to the actual name Richards' Hotel and Restaurant. Likewise the infelicitiously-named History of the Astor House Hotel (Shanghai) since 1959 to the actual name Pujiang Hotel. However, there remain the History of the Astor House Hotel (Shanghai) 1858-1900, History of the Astor House Hotel (Shanghai) 1900-1922, and Astor House Hotel (Shanghai) 1922-1959 pages – apparently split from one another on no other basis than page length – that need to return to this article.

Per WP:AVOIDSPLIT &c., since this article is (or at least should be) about the history of a former hotel, there's no call for separate "history" pages and certainly no call for multiple separate "history" pages.

THe preferred and popular name of the hotel is the Astor House Hotel. THis is how it is advertised today. There is continuity of location since 1858. The Richards Hotel is the only former hotel.smjwalsh (talk) 22:37, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

During that process, per WP:REL &c., this article needs to shed any material from the before and after periods. Before is the Richards' Hotel article, after is the Pujiang Hotel article. This article is for the years between 1858 and 1959. [Admittedly, the Pujiang's English-language website currently uses the title Astor House Hotel: at the same time, its webspace is pujiang.com and its official name remains Pujiang.]

I have stayed here many times since 2003. I can assure you that while the website is pujiang.com, that ALL travel guides, tourist books, and English language advertising refer to the Hotel as the Astor House Hotel.smjwalsh (talk) 22:37, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also during that process, per WP:DETAIL &c., masses of extraneous information about some of the people involved during this era – inter alia Captain Morton's freemasonry on this page or James Taggart's Lowland Scotch heritage – need to be shuttled off to separate pages on those respective gentleman. Articles on the history of Shanghai, the Shanghai International Settlement, and Shanghailanders would benefit enormously from some of this cited material, although it's often bloat here. Similarly, articles on the various holding companies who managed this hotel among others.

Definitely a good idea. THe article expanded with a view to creating separate articles as required.smjwalsh (talk) 22:37, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, per WP:OVERLINK &c., a number of well-meaning but ridiculous links such as "an American millionaire heiress" can be dispensed with. If people need such terms defined, they shouldn't really be on this page but at the simple English wiki or wiktionary instead.

— LlywelynII 15:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fair comment.smjwalsh (talk) 22:37, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

After 250+ Footnotes, You Really Don't Need a Bibliography[edit]

But here's the list for those interested in article expansion [heh]:

The Astor House Guide to Shanghai. Shanghai: North-China Daily News and Herald, 1911. 41 pages.

Browne, G. Waldo. China: The Country and Its People. Boston: Dana Estes & Company, 1901.

Clifford, Nicholas Rowland. Spoilt Children of Empire: Westerners in Shanghai and the Chinese Revolution of the 1920s. Middlebury College Press, 1991.

Conant, Harold Abbott Rand. "A Far East Journal (1915–1941)", ed. Edmund Conant Perry (published 1994); [1]

Cranley, William Patrick. "Old Shanghai's 'Others': Sailor, Whores, Half-breeds and Other Interlopers". [2]

Dorn, Frank. The Sino-Japanese War, 1937-41: From Marco Polo Bridge to Pearl Harbor. Macmillan, 1974.

Dupée, Jeffrey N. British Travel Writers in China: Writing Home to a British Public, 1890–1914. E. Mellen Press, 2004.

French, Paul. Through the Looking Glass: Foreign Journalists in China, from the Opium Wars to Mao. Hong Kong University Press, 2009.

Gamewell, Mary Louise Ninde. The Gateway to China: Pictures of Shanghai. Fleming H. Revell, 1916.

Henriot, Christian and Matthew Woodbury. "The Shanghai Bund: A History through Visual Sources" Virtual Shanghai: Shanghai Urban Space in Time (June 2007). [3]

Johnston, Tess and Deke Erh. A Last Look: Western Architecture in Old Shanghai. Hong Kong: Old China Hand Press, 2004.

Jordon, Donald A. China's Trial by Fire: The Shanghai War of 1932. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2001.

Kuo chia t'ung chi chü, China. Changes and Development in China (1949–1989). Beijing Review Press, 1990.

Lunt, Carroll Prescott. Some Builders of Treaty Port China, 1965.

Lunt, Carroll Prescott. Treaty Port: An Intimate History of Shanghai in Metrical Form. Shanghai: The China Digest 1934.

Maclellan, J.W. The Story of Shanghai, from the Opening of the Port to Foreign Trade. North-China Herald Office, 1889.

Macmillan, Allister. Seaports of the Far East: Historical and Descriptive, Commercial and Industrial, Facts, Figures, & Resources. 2nd ed. W.H. & L. Collingridge, 1925.

Shanghai lishi bowuguan (ed.) 上海历史博物馆, Survey of Shanghai 1840's-1940's. Shanghai: Shanghai renmin meisha chubanshe, 1992. [4]

Shanghai of To-day: A Souvenir Album of Fifty Vandyke Gravure Prints of the 'Model Settlement'. 3rd ed. Shanghai: Kelly & Walsh, 1930. [5]

Shaw, [Charles Frederick] Ralph. Sin City. Everest Books, 1973.

Tang, Zhenchang, Yunzhong Lu, and Siyuan Lu. Shanghai's Journey to Prosperity, 1842–1949. Commercial Press, 1996.

Tobias, Sigmund. Strange Haven: A Jewish Childhood in Wartime Shanghai. University of Illinois Press, 1999.

Wakeman, Frederic E. The Shanghai Badlands: Wartime Terrorism and Urban Crime, 1937–1941. Cambridge University Press, 2002.

Wasserstrom, Jeffrey N. Global Shanghai 1850–2010. Routledge, 2009. Figure 3,2, page 58: photo of Astor House Hotel 1901.

Wei, Betty Peh-Ti. Old Shanghai. Oxford University Press, 1993.

Wei, Betty Peh-Ti. Shanghai: Crucible of Modern China. 2nd ed. Oxford University Press, 1987.

Yeh, Wen-Hsin., ed. Wartime Shanghai. Taylor & Francis, 1998.

Zhai, Qiang. The Dragon, the Lion & the Eagle: Chinese-British-American Relations, 1949–1958. Kent State University Press, 1994.

潘君祥, 段炼, [Lian Duan]. 话说沪商(图文商谚本). CICAP, 2007. Pages 82–86.

— LlywelynII 16:21, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Internment/Interment[edit]

Re this revert. If the news headline on 17 December 1921 was "Sudden Death of Mr. Edward Ezra" then I would expect that the news on 24 December 1921 would be about his funeral. So did the newspaper really say "Internment", or is this merely a copying or translation error? -- John of Reading (talk) 15:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It definitely said internment, but let me check :).smjwalsh (talk) 15:56, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok I checked. You were right to put (sic) after the word "internment" as "interment" should have been used. The newspaper was an English language periodical so was not a translation error but probably a typographical one. Feel free to revert my most recent change. smjwalsh (talk) 16:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done; [sic] not [sic?] this time. Thank you for checking. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:05, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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