Talk:Atlanta/Archive 2

Archive quetion

What is with the archive and copyrighted images?--Old Guard 01:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The talk pages of many articles regularly get archived; this is quite common in Wikipedia. AreJay 01:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

NHL

Can someone add that Atlanta is hosting the 2008 NHL All-Star Game? It's kind of a big deal. --Stang281 07:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is the logo.... http://www.atlantathrashers.com/View.aspx?CID01=ddf1ae3d-4678-4772-9386-4f56b91c6008--Stang281 23:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

=Throwing the Baby Out with the Bath Water

Looking back at a March 2006 version, much of the 'good' has been thrown out with the bad. Some have ghettoized Atlanta's nicknames while forgetting its history. What happened to the mention and explanation of the "Phoenix City," "New York of the South," etc. Even the early name 'Thrashersville' has disappeared! Also, the discussion of the city and urban sprawl issues, exurbs, and economic influence has been mostly removed. Much of this material needs to be re-incorporated into the article. → R Young {^yakł_talk} 05:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Atlanta, Georgia From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Revision as of 22:45, 29 March 2006; 128.122.89.135 (Talk) (diff) ← Older revision | Current revision | Newer revision → (diff) Jump to: navigation, search "Atlanta" redirects here. For other uses, see Atlanta (disambiguation). Atlanta, Georgia

Flag Seal

Nickname: "The Horizon City, Hotlanta, The Big Peach, A-Town, The ATL" Location

Location in Fulton and DeKalb counties in the state of Georgia Coordinates: 33°45′18″N, 84°23′24″W Government Country State Counties United States Georgia Fulton County, Georgia DeKalb County, Georgia Mayor Shirley Franklin (D) Geographical characteristics Area 132.4 mi² - 343.0 km²

   Land   131.8 mi² - 341.2 km² 
   Water   0.7 mi² - 1.8 km² 

Elevation 225-320 m Demographics Population (2004) 425,000

   Density   1,221/km² 
 Metro 4,708,297 

Time zone

 Summer (DST) EST (UTC-5)

EDT (UTC-4) Website: http://www.atlantaga.gov/ Atlanta (IPA: /ˌætˈlɛ̃n.nə/ or /ˌɛtˈlɛ̃n.nə/) is the capital of and largest city in the U.S. state of Georgia. It is the county seat of Fulton County, although a portion of the city (the 1909 annex) is located in DeKalb County. According to the latest census estimates (as of December, 2004), the city has a population of approximately 425,000 and the Atlanta metropolitan area totaled 4,708,297, making it the ninth-largest metropolitan area in the United States and the 41st-largest city proper. Atlanta is arguably a poster-child for cities worldwide experiencing rapid urban sprawl, population growth, and commercial development. As a result, Atlanta is a common case study for college students who study Urban Geography around the globe.

The Atlanta area was originally inhabited by Cherokee and Creek Indians, and was named Standing Peachtree. In 1823, the area was opened to white settlement. It remained mostly woods until 1836, when the area was chosen as the southern "Terminus" of a railroad from Chattanooga. A local settlement called "Thrasherville" (near present-day Philips arena, home of the Atlanta Thrashers) was renamed "Terminus," and in 1843 the town was officially named "Marthasville," after the daughter of the governor of Georgia. The business community, however, was concerned that such a name wouldn't sell, and a new name, "Atlanta," was chosen in 1845 as much more marketable. Hence, from the start "Atlanta" began as a transportation hub and marketing center. The town was incorporated as the city of Atlanta in 1847, and by 1860 the population was 9,554.

Atlanta was largely destroyed by Union forces during the Civil War, but was chosen as the state capital in 1868, having been established as the site of command for Union soldiers and the Reconstruction administration. In the 1880's, a revival was led by newspaperman Henry Grady, who advocated Atlanta as the "capital of the New South." By 1890 Atlanta had 65,000 residents and was one of the 50 largest cities in America, a distinction Atlanta has held for over 110 years. In 1892, Atlanta's first skyscraper, the 8-story Equitable Building, began Atlanta's rise to the skies. The city expanded rapidly from 1900 (89,000) to 1930 (302,000) before growth slowed during the Depression. In the 1960's Atlanta was a center for the American Civil Rights Movement. In 1970, the city's population topped out at 497,000 before "white flight" to the suburbs dropped the city to 394,000 in 1990. However, in 1996 Atlanta served as the host city for the Centennial 1996 Summer Olympics, and the city has rallied to 425,000 by 2004, fueled in part by a new desire for shorter commutes and intown living.

One of the city's nicknames, "The Phoenix City", relates to its rise after the Civil War. The phoenix appears in many of Atlanta's symbols, including its seal and flag. In the 1940s and 1950s, former Atlanta mayor William B. Hartsfield called Atlanta "The City Too Busy to Hate". In addition, it has also been called the "New York of the South" in response to one of Georgia's own nicknames, "The Empire State of the South." Atlanta may also be known as ATL, a colloquialism for the city derived from the IATA airport code for the airport.

Atlanta is circled by Interstate 285, called the "Perimeter" by locals, which has come to delineate the interior of the city from the surrounding suburbs. This has given rise to the terms ITP (inside the Perimeter) and OTP (outside the Perimeter) to describe area neighborhoods, residents, and businesses. In this respect, the Perimeter plays a social and geographical role similar to that of the Capital Beltway around Washington, DC.

Atlanta has such a great economic impact on the state and the surrounding region that cities and towns up to 45 miles away are considered 'exurbs', defined by the fact that people depend on their livelihoods by commuting to work in the city, rapidly growing what is called Metro Atlanta. Atlanta is one of the most prosperous cities in the United States and is often referred to as the unofficial "capital of the South." The city is also an especially important cultural and economic center for African-Americans; Atlanta has not had a non-black mayor since 1974, and in recent decades nearly all Fire Chiefs, Police Chiefs, and other government officials have been African-American.

Atlanta and the Race Issue

The city of Atlanta may be majority-black now, but for the first 130+ years, it was majority white. Also, Atlanta is becoming increasingly diverse. This article is not about 'black Atlanta' but about 'Atlanta.' Discussions of issues such as 'history' should be inclusive of multiple viewpoints and perspectives.

→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 05:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Largest State Capitol in the Nation?

Atlanta is not the largest state capitol in the nation, Atlanta population is only 470,000. While Phoenix (capitol of Arizona and largest state capitol) has a population of 1,460,000. Nearly 1 million more citizens in the city of Atlanta. Even Indianapolis (capitol of Indiana, 791,000) Boston, (Capitol of Massachusetts, 570,000) are larger than Atlanta. Atlanta has a larger metro area ( 5 million to Phoenix 3 million) but it is not a larger city by any change. Even Boston's metro area is larger than Atlanta's (5.8 million to 5.2) This can confuse some people when they think that metro Atlanta and the city of Atlanta proper, is the same thing.

Agreed. Atlanta is the capital. Metro Atlanta is not the capital. If someone wants to wordsmith it (which seems difficult), I'm fine with that. For now I'll just delete it, as I think it is misleading, not particularly notable, and mangles the rest of the sentence. Ufwuct 16:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Strong urge to increase rank of Atlanta Metro Area

It seems that there is a strong desire among some to inflate the population figures for the Atlanta Metro Area. Garyaaliya has reranked the metro area in the Houston, Texas, this article, and United States metropolitan area. In 2004, the population of the 28-county Atlanta Metro area was 4,708,297; in 2005, the U.S. Census Bureau estimates showed 4,917,717 living in these counties (not 5,249,121). Greater Houston had 5,280,077 people (not 5,180,443). I invite you to try again next year (late June 2007), when the U.S. Census Bureau estimates for July 1, 2006 are expected to come out. Thanks. Ufwuct 16:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

User Garyaaliya, Please come off your high horse and quit assuming foul play. The number 5,249,121 was defined as from the 'CSA'or 'Combined Statistical Area' which is, in effect, a resurrection of the CMSA system in the 1990's. After the 2000 census, the Census Bureau decided to go with a 'strict' definition of 'metropolitan area.' The 'lose' definition, which (if you'll note) counts higher totals for places like NYC, etc, has a higher total for Atlanta (already 5 million in 2004).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Statistical_Area

So, it seems you are not completely knowledgeable of the subject, instead assuming 'foul play'. Try to do a little reading first, and make your edits with less degree of finality. You may find you weren't right, after all. → R Young {^yakł_talk} 19:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Atlanta Temperatures

Greetings,

The city of Atlanta experiences minimum temperatures in winter of about 13-18 degrees F, on average. In the winter of 2005-2006, the lowest recoded temperature was 24F (breaking the record for the warmest winter ever--previous was 20 degrees, 1990-1991). Global warming or no, the temp in Atlanta hasn't reached 10 degrees since Jan 1994. Thus, claims that the temp reaches 10 degrees 'several times a winter' are over-stated. Maybe 15 degrees about once a year. → R Young {^yakł_talk} 19:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

You seem to have, either advertently or inadvertently, reversed my recent edits to the article which were in line with WP:MOS without any prior discussion or justification. As for your changes to the temperature section, please provide verifiable sources to support your edits and avoid WP:OR. Thanks AreJay 00:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

AreJay,

1. This article is edited too frequently and by too many editors. The revert served to reverse several recent issues, only one of which was the temperature issue. Please see http://www.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=ffc for official, unofficial weather data...that is, the data is 'unofficial' unless it's from the NARA, but in reality the NWS data serves as the 'official' data used by the city's major news/TV stations. I certainly know that the temp in Atlanta rarely gets to 10 degrees F, it hasn't happened in a long time. → R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, your charges of 'no original research' are just plain silly and a red herring. → R Young {^yakł_talk } 04:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Huh? How are my "charges" just "plain silly"? You seemed to have referred to some website (weather.gov, as you have since pointed out) to make changes to the weather section. But without appropriate references to the changes (see WP:CITE), it gives the impression that this was just an arbitrary change based on WP:OR. As you say, this article is edited too frequently and by too many editors, and without appropriate citations and references, it is hard to distinguish between prank edits and well intentioned ones. That's all I've been saying all along, but apparently the point is not getting across. I have no issues with edits as long as they are appropriately cited. Also, my edits are always in good faith and there's not need to get personal. AreJay 22:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I get my weather information from the US government:

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ffc/

This information is used to supply the information you see on TV every day on the news. This is the 'unofficial official' website for the city of Atlanta. The 'official' data is stored at the National Archives and Records Administration. However, for all practical purposes, the above website is in fact the government outlet for Atlanta weather, and all the data is 'preliminary official' if not certified official.

Also, I am a weather records expert and I have the record high and low for every day of the year for the city of Atlanta. Thus, you can take it to the bank that I know what I'm talking about.

In fact, I've actually corrected the Peachtree City guys once or twice (for example, the record high for Aug 19 in Atlanta). → R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The other issues were the race issue and the 'churches'/places of worship issue. First, let's face it, we need to balance majority rule and minority rights. For example, the majority of people in Atlanta are 'Christian'...to get rid of the word 'majority' is disengenuous.

But with three/four issues/edits that I'm concerned with and several more that you and others are concerned with ('largest capital, Gamma world city, etc), a revert may not necessarily be for the same reason. So, part of discussion if what each side can give up in order to reach a compromise...and not to make one side seem 'righteous' and 'holier than thou.' → R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Also, I am not just concerned with three/four issues. I am more concerned with the overall state of this article and am frequently frustrated at its lack of quality. Bottomline, I would never have rv'ed your edits, had you not done a blanket edit that wiped out all my edits to the article's lead that were in line with WP:LEAD and that had taken me over an hour to complete. AreJay 22:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

AreJay,

You should make one edit at a time, rather than trying a 'Congressional omnibus bill'. I don't think your 'edits' add value or make the article better. Also, the designation 'gamma world city' is from a biased study done by a single university in Britain, without input from experts elsewhere. I don't think this is really worth as much as you think it is.

Also, again I said 'more than one issue'. Part of the problem is stuffing lots of changes in at once...who am I? Other than the Guinness World Records gerontology consultant, Atlanta, editor for www.emporis.com (#1 high-rise website in the world), and featured in the Wall Street Journal, NY Times, and National Public Radio, I guess I'm not that important. Except I also live her as well. Well, who are you? → R Young {^yakł_talk} 06:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Ryoung122, you seem to be turning this into a personal battle and it is no wonder that this article is suffering because of obstinate editors such as yourself who are simply unwilling to listen to reason. It doesn't matter who you are or who I am, Ryoung122 — your credentials are about as equally unimportant as mine here. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, it is not a consortium of subject matter experts. So while I'm sure you're very qualified in your area(s) of expertise, it matters little here.

Please afford me the basic courtesy of reviewing my edits before reverting them. I was not adding content; I was merely formatting it to make it in line with Wikipedia's best practices, which include Wikipedia's Manual of Style and Lead formatting policies.

Further, your comments stating "I don't think your 'edits' add value or make the article better" are utterly vague and ambigious for me or any other editor to turn around and incorporate into our edits. Your suggestion of "make one edit at a time" is unacceptable to me. Sorry, but this is a free encyclopedia and I can and will make as many edits to as many sections as I want as long as my edits are in line with Wikipedia's policies and as long as I have valid reasons for my edits. If you have issues with my edits, discuss them here. Don't blanket revert them. And come to me with a little more than "I don't think your edits add value". I don't want it to come down to this, but if you continue your blanket reverts of my edits for no reason other than the fact that you simply don't like me, I will seek out mediation and you will be blocked from editing. Remember, repeatedly removing content for no rhyme or reason is at best, trolling and at worst vandalism.

Who am I? I am someone who has had the opportunity to turn two Wikipedia articles into Featured Articles. I have contributed to Wikipedia for over 2 1/2 years and have well over 2,700 edits and I think I know a thing or two about the things that can drive quality into a Wikipedia article, both from a content and formatting standpoint. I hope for the sake of this article that you will learn to be more accomodating of other editors and listen to reason. Thanks AreJay 13:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

AreJay, look in the mirror. In fact, you were the first one to make a snide/inappropriate comment:

15:31, 9 August 2006 AreJay (Talk | contribs) m (No, it is not apples and oranges; you need to provide sources for your changes to the temperature section. I however dont have the time to continue this little rvt game)

No, this is not a 'little revert game.' Such a comment was supremely disrepectful because it insinuated that:

A. the changes that I made were not important; B. that the changes I made were a 'game' and not an edit.

As for the threats...you really think that threating me with

I will seek out mediation and you will be blocked from editing. Remember, repeatedly removing content for no rhyme or reason is at best, trolling and at worst [[WP:VANDAL|vandalism]

makes you right?

Is at best displaying a 'God complex' and emotional immaturity. You fail to recognize that all the changes I made had a solid basis to it. For example, the claim that the temperature in Atlanta regularly falls below 10F in winter. I have tracked this for some 17 years and I surely know quite more about Atlanta weather than you. Here you can get the daily highs and lows for every day in Atlanta from 1878 to 2006. Would you like to scan this?

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ffc/html/cliarch2.shtml

The suggestion to 'make one edit at a time' was to counter the problem of multiple reverts. Each time you or I or someone reverts, recent changes made by third parties may be lost. Hence, it would be better to actually make a few, smaller changes at a time rather than 'all or nothing.' What you're doing is like the Congress saying they can't pass a minimum wage increase without attaching it abolish the Death Tax. Or as the joke goes: "Girl Scout cookies come bundled with the Microsoft browser." You DO need to re-think your 'master of the universe' attitude and start working towards compromise. Your empty threats of 'mediation' do not worry me, as I can easily point out mistakes you have made and inaccuracies in your position.

However, if you want to 'compromise,' the best thing to do is to make multiple small edits, rather than make big changes and claim 'I don't have time for others.' Again, is your time more valuable than mine? Are you placing yourself as of 'supreme importance'? My response was simply to show that I could easily do the same thing, but both are irrelevant to the real issue, 'Does the edit add value or improve the current article?' I find it laughable that you think such a standard should not be applied.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 05:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

How many times do I have to keep saying this?? Are you ever going to understand what I'm trying say? I will say this again, very slowly, one last time. You are free to add and / or edit what you want, as long as you cite your sources in the article. You say you've "tracked" the weather in Atlanta. Well, friend, that is original research and Wikipedia has a policy against that. As someone that very actively contributes to Wikipedia's Featured Article Candidates and Peer Review processes, I know that these are some of the things that get hauled up. You've made changes to the temperature section, I know you've referred to some sources because you had added them to the Talk page earlier, so what can't you just cite your source to the things that you've changed and call it a day (please see WP:CITE or WP:REF for more information on how to add in-line citations for articles in Wikipedia.)? Is that too much to ask??

Now for your other issues with my edit summary. It was a little revert game. How else are you going to explain your blanket revert of my edits to the lead, not once, but twice? What other technical issue(s) did you base your reverts on? My edits were nothing more than a cleanup of the text — as I've said twice before, they were meant to bring the text in the lead in line with Wikipedia's Manual of Style and WP:LEAD policies. And you blanket reverted those edits twice. So what are you trying to tell me...that you have issues with Wikipedia's text formatting and style policies and guidelines? I never said, as you claim, that a standard of "Does the edit add value or improve the current article?" should not be applied to make changes. I said that you need to be specific as to what you felt wasn't "adding value" or "improving the current article"...and the fact is that in the 2-3 conversations that we've had here, you haven't once been able to specifically point out what your issues were with these edits. Remember, Ryoung122, I was not the one that started blanket reverting edits for no rhyme or reason — you were. That, in itself, was pretty darn disrespectful. I did not intend the edit summary to sound disrespectful and I'm not sure why you're having such issues with it when I was just calling it like it is. And besides your own edit summary of "no reason given for YOUR revert" wasn't exactly glowing with etiquette.

Which brings me to my next point. Let me highlight the irony in the fact that you are preeching to the other editors here to "make one edit at a time", while you very conveniently seem to prefer blanket reverting multiple edits. If you have issues with peoples' edits, why can't you make one change at a time?? And trust me, I would have sought out mediation had this edit war continued on; these were not empty threats. I'm sorry, but your reverts of the lead did't have a leg to stand on, and you can't randomly revert peoples' edits because you have issues with them or with what you perceive to be their attitudes of superiority.

However, we have beaten this issue to death here. I am happy with the way the article stands as of now, although I think a lot can be done to improve the quality of the article. This is not going to be easy and cannot be accomplished overnight. I will continue to work on this article as time permits and I hope that it will make WP:FA sooner than later. AreJay 14:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Once again, it seems a favorite passtime of Atlanta amateur 'editors' is misstating the weather. An official reading of below zero F is extremely rare and never happened once during the 1990's. In fact, there have only been six years where it's happened, and all of them were associated with major polar air masses and freak occurrences. Consider:

1. 1884--Atlanta hit -1F the winter after the Krakatau eruption blocked out the sun, cooling the planet

2. 1899--the time Atlanta hit -9F, also saw such extremes as -15 (Washington, D.C. all-time record low), -16 in Louisiana (state record) and -2 in Florida (state record), -39F in Ohio (state record), -47F in Nebraska

3. 1963--Atlanta hit -3F; the state of Kentucky set a record of -34F

4. 1966--Atlanta hit -3F; Alabama set a state record of -27F

5. 1982--Atlanta reached -5F

6. 1985--Atlanta reached -8F. The coldest air mass of the century also saw records such as -73F (province of Ontario), -69F (state record, Utah); -61F (state record, Colorado); -34F (state record, North Carolina), -19F (state record, South Carolina).

→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Virtual Tours

I asked this question prior to it getting archived and unanswered, so I'll ask it again. Why is my virtual tour of Atlanta link being removed every time I post it? Please let me know. Thanks! --TourPath 03:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's start with...this is NOT a place for commercial self-promotion! If your tour is so good, it should only be recommended by someone that doesn't know you and not you. And even then, it should only be kept if the majority of Wikipedians agreed that it should. → R Young {^yakł_talk} 06:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

TourPath tours aren't being created for "commercial self-promotion".

It's a dot.com entity, thus it is for profit-making.

(So what? What does that have to do with the fact that it is useful? Once again, have you clicked on ANY external links lately? A ton of them link to Yahoo! and other 'profit-making' sites. That is truly a sophmoric answer. --TourPath 14:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC))

To deny this is to not understand what a .com is. Wikipedia is a .org site funded by charitable donations. → R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

(One again, what does THAT have to do with the issue at hand? Wikipedia's business model concerns Wikipedia and has little to do with the content posted to this platform. At no time did they ever tell me that an external link can't lead to a commercially-operated entity. --TourPath 14:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC))

People who create these tours are photographers, real estate agents, multimedia people - all who are trying to add a little more multimedia and interactivity to the Web. Like any "works", putting a signature to something your create is common. I suppose the links to your profile are not some form of self-promotion, eh? If not, why do you need a profile that explains who you are, what you like, where you've worked, where your alumni is, what state you live in, your business experience. That's NOT self promotion? It is also rediculous

Your misspelling of 'ridiculous' really lowers your credibility. Also, if my user page is about me, then it should be about me. That's not the same as an 'encyclopedia' article.

(A cut-n-paste from the above discussion: YOU SAID, 'As for the threats...you really think that threating me with I will seek out mediation and you will be blocked from editing." That is an incomplete question whose sentence is ended by a period, RYoung...but I'll let you have that one.)

Also, I wasn't the one to remove the 'Virtual tour' in the first place. I was simply answering the question of why someone would want to remove the link.

(Then the 'stud' who likes to touch my stuff needs to speak up, not you. I love your bravery but not your desire to be heard all of the time. --TourPath 14:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC))

And while you're crying out loud, others have deleted relevant photos in the past, so you're not the only one to have things changed around. As it says, if you don't expect your changes to be 'edited mercilessly,' you shouldn't be here. → R Young {^yakł_talk} 04:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

("Crying out loud"? RYoung, based on the posts I've read between you and other, it seems you are the one crying all of the time. You must have an enormous inferiority complex as you are usually the first to insult others. Your insults are obvious through the manner by which you critique people and assume their works and contributions are less valuable than your own. Just because Wikipedia's managers offer an open 'badge' to edit content doesn't mean they appointed you the editing police. Edits should be employed to CORRECT INACCURACIES, not to determine who is 'worthy' or not of being seen in an article. I don't care if my contribution are edited mercilessly, but you should edit what is wrong - not what isn't. Once again, my contribution was as external link. I don't touch other people's work within Wikipedia without discussion. And if you want to consider the removal of my external link a 'discussion', then consider your personal views about why my link was removed to be bloated and inconsistent. --TourPath 14:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC))

(Let's keep in mind, people, that Wikipedia was created to help people learn, not as a cyber platform for those suffering from maladies of inferiority. I've been insulted more than I care to have been, and yet, the person who insulted me still has not presented a valid arguement as to why my external link is being removed. I feel like I'm dealing with a 15-year old who is trying to prove he can play with the 'big kids'. "While you're crying out load," and "Your misspelling of 'ridiculous' really lowers your credibility," really don't address the issue about which I inquired. --TourPath 14:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC))

to claim that validity of our tours should be expressed by other people. Should the validity of any information posted to Wikipedia be justified if someone other than originator posts it? Kind of goes against the idealism behind Wikipedia. As for the "majority of Wikipedians" deciding to keep an external link posting online, it doesn't take a "majority" to delete a link. It just takes one person to delete it a few hours after it is posted. That being the case, I doubt if the "majority" ever get to see it once it is deleted. The bottom line is this: Wikipedia is about learning. So what if something has to be ad-supported (I suppose you work for free?). The people who create our virtual tours are volunteers. We give them the change to make some money by allowing them to solicit sponsors for each tour they decide to create. And, please, don't tell me that it's wrong to have ads appear in our tours - have you clicked on many external links lately? By the way, every tour we create links back over to YOUR information here on Wikipedia via the TourPath.com Web site. If anything, we're promoting YOU...or is that wrong, too? See for yourself. http://www.tourpath.com/tour_state_georgia.shtml

I love how it's ok for us to help increase views on Wikipedia, but you don't think it's ok for us to post subject-relevant information on Wikipedia - via the EXTERNAL LINKS, too, for crying out loud! --TourPath 04:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Homicide rate

I've been trying to figure out a good representation for the homicide rate from 2002-2005 (the only years available on the APD website) for the crime section. Does this looks useful or can someone figure out a better way to show it? Thanks

--Jolomo 18:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that chart looks quite good, but it might be more visually straightforward to have the areas below the graph lines not filled in, especially since if a future graph line intersects a prior year's graph line, the current shading scheme would no longer work. Qqqqqq 01:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I have several suggestions.

1) It might benefit from a better definition. I understand that accurate reporting is a problem and the City is a good source. The problem is, the "City of Atlanta" contains a fraction of the urbanized area -- I'd estimate 15-30%, depending on your definition of the metro area. And unfortunately, the political division "City of Atlanta" is not a very good proxy for anything. The part of the metro area included in the City boundaries is an accident of the realpolitik. The City of Atlanta comprises, on the one hand, a moderately affluent African-American section, several moderately affluent mixed-race urban neighborhoods with large single and gay populations, several business districts, and a very affluent shopping/nightlife district, all of which belong in the "city". It also includes, however, randomly included (or more accurately, included by historical accident or political intransigence) neighborhoods ranging from extreme affluence to blighted inner city sprawl, whose boundaries do not reflect any sort of organic cohesion.

If you want metro statistics, the "City" will be skewed toward a higher homicide rate. If you want inner-city versus metro, or something similar, the City contains too much white suburban population.

The second simplest choice, Fulton County, would be a much more accurate proxy for the metro area. That said, gross City homicides is still a decent statistic when compared year to year.

2) It would definitely be more useful to show homicides adjusted for population. You might find, surprisingly, that the City population has shrunken in some years, I don't know. The boomtown growth is outside the city limits.

3) Although homicides per month has a lot of interest from a sociological point of view, as a fact about the city, there is little value to the month-by-month comparison; it strongly detracts from what I perceive as the objective of the chart. It would be better, IMO, as a year-to-year line or bar graph.

So that my input isn't totally useless, the FBI has good statistics on both metro Atlanta and the City. This should get you into the system: FBI Violent Crime Statistics

-- Apollo 17:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Illustrations

Can we get some photos to illustrate this article that don't so obviously consist of layering up different images of sky, skyline, and foreground? I'm thinking of "Image:Downtown-southside.jpg", which resembles a miniature cardboard cutout in front of a sky backdrop, and "Image:Growth.jpg". Photoshopping and art have their places at Wikipedia; but I think this gives a weird impression of the city. — President Lethe 23:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Virtual Tour - Part Deux

Does anyone mind if I post a commercially-supported virtual tour to this article? The tour link is as follows http://www.tourpath.com/tour_state_georgia.shtml (Georgia tour links page) http://www.commercialnet.biz/dvt/rmp.php?id=344 (Direct ot Atl. tour)

Thanks for letting me know. Best, --TourPath 15:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tourpath — this might help you a little bit. Here's Wikipedia's external links policy - WP:EL. You might want to read through that to see if the external links you're attempting to add to the article are permissible or not. Thanks AreJay 17:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks AreJay. The only point I noticed that may be of any concern is, "[Avoid linking to] A website that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines above imply that it should be linked to. This is because of neutrality and point-of-view concerns; neutrality is an important objective at Wikipedia, and a difficult one. If it is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let other — neutral — Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link."

I think our tours can actually overcome this since each tour is created by a unique individual and not one person. We don't express "point of view", but rather, each tour is a profile of communities around the country from a local perspective. What goes into a tour is factual information gathered through research. I work for the company that owns the virtual tour technology - NOT the actual tours. The actual tours are produced by people who licensed our technology. In no way, shape or form do we want to, or intend to, market our technology platform, but it makes total sense to link to virtual tours if they are contributive in nature. Your opinion on this matter is greatly appreciated. Best - --TourPath 18:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

TourPath, I think the first step then would be to build some consensus here on the talk page as to whether or not users think the external link is appropriate. I personally don't have any problems with the fact that it is a dotcom as opposed to a .net or .org. Contrary to what was said in one of the earlier discussions, .com domains don't always have to relate to commercial entities, and certainly from a Wikipedia policy standpoint, there isn't any rule against .com websites (One of Wikipedia's mirrors is actually wikipedia.com — doesn't make it a commercial entity). So let's start off by building some consesus on this page — you may want to either create a separate discussion for that or just use this thread. Hope this helps. AreJay 01:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Monkeys?

I have been trying but I really don't understand the last sentence of the Media paragraph. "Also alot of monkeys live there" What does that have to do with anything? Maybe there is something that I am not seeing.

There wasn't...thanks for the eagle eye. Squiggyfm 19:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh... Yerkes? -- uberpenguin @ 2006-08-17 19:43Z

Good call. --TourPath 19:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

That's kind of funny.

Isn't "monkeys" a racist term to african-americans?

I get it, Sherman burned the city

The caption under the history section for the picture of the slave auction house BEFORE SHERMAN BURNED ATLANTA takes it a little too far. It's like someone out there wants to rub that in. The last 4 words in that caption are GONE.

To the Idiot who writes the the climate section:

Dear Idiot, How many times do people have to bicker with you until you get the point that you put your own opinion and biases in that section. First off the 1899 record of -9 is unofficial and weather instruments used then were inaccurate. Stop making climatical comparisons to international cities which lie on the same latitude. The comparison you made to Atlanta and Dallas was ludacris; Yes we all know Dallas is extremely hotter than Atlanta in the warm weathered months, But winter is a highly variable season depending from year to year the cities tend to be in mild winter "slugfest" if i may say so. Then you claimed july temps peak at 89, wrong once again. In truth they peak at 89 for the first week and a few extra days, the majority of the month reaches temps over 90. I doubt your a native and i doubt your knowledge in meteorology, You make it seem like the climate facts of an east coast city. I think the majority agrees we should delete the climatical section until a more accurate and precise one is made same with the Metro Atlanta page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.99.142.106 (talk • contribs) 22:27, 28 August 2006.

Healthcare/hospitals

A section on healthcare and hospitals in Atlanta would be helpful. --Ttownfeen 05:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Atlanta's Larger than Houston now

The new census estimates puts the Greater Atlanta ahead of the Greater Houston area and closing in on the Metroplex.

What is your source? I have been using the United States Census Bureau as a source for the data. Thanks. Ufwuct 01:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Centennial Bombing

There is a need to clarify the deaths from the bombing during the olympics. Only one person died from the actual blast. The second was simply a heart attack and should not be included in the information as it may be misleading. If the second is included, then there should be an addition to deaths for those who died in a car accident that day. However this death may be notable information, but must be clarified.

 (note: my resources are Microsoft Encarta, CNN.com)

24.92.149.187 02:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)Nicole

Survey on proposal to make U.S. city naming guidelines consistent with others countries

There is a survey in progress at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements) to determine if there is consensus on a proposed change to the U.S. city naming conventions to be consistent with other countries, in particular Canada.

This proposal would allow for this article to be located at Atlanta instead of Atlanta, Georgia, bringing articles for American cities into line with articles for cities such as Paris and Toronto.--DaveOinSF 16:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

However the proposal would allow U.S. cities to be inconsistent with the vast majority of other U.S. cities and towns, which (with a few exceptions) all use the "city, state" convention. -Will Beback 23:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Part of History section blanked & never restored

The 10/31 vandalism edit by 65.6.186.79 does not appear to have been completely reverted - much of the information that was blanked was not restored (pre- Civil War history). I don't know anything about Atlanta, so I'm not qualified to decide whether it belongs in the article. Could some regular contributor make the call? - Special-T 15:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me take a look -- I had meant to add pre-Civil War history, and hadn't realized a passage had been blanked. --GGreeneVa 15:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The darkest lead picture ever

This must be changed.

Agreed. This doesn't show Atlanta very well. That could be just about any major city on the planet, as far as I can tell from that thumbnail. Ufwuct 14:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The nighttime image was added a long time ago,[1] but it hasn't been changed since then. Still, I think this image is not a good one for this article; even the original picture (ATL2ATL.JPG) is better. Ufwuct 14:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

pronunciation of Atlanta

I'm wondering what the pronunciation of these /ˌætˈlɛ̃n.nə/ or /ˌɛtˈlɛ̃n.nə/ are. Do these are for local people or typical American people call? I saw in dictionary either MSN or Webster using [t] at the third word. --Manop - TH 02:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The pronunciation guide should probably include examples with the "t" sound in the third syllable. Some people do pronounce that "t" and some do not. "Properly," it should probably have the "t," but in some dialects it does fall silent. Thanks for pointing it out! (Note to others: could someone better versed in IPA than I am make that change?) • WarpFlyght (talk) 03:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Climate data source

I restored the table to data from The Weather Channel website. Usually, averages are given for the past 30-year record, that is, the averages from 1971-2000. This is standard and the NWS usually does this. Giving averages for the entire climate record is not the typical practice. On the other hand, TWC gives record highs and lows all the way back to at least 1881. While the location of the measuring station in most cases has moved since then (typically from a city center to an airport), it still gives and indication of the temperatures that are possible in the area. In this respect, TWC has longer records. I think the Weatherbase website should only be cited in this case if some other fact needs to be supported (like number of days with rains, percent sunshine, # of clear days, etc.).

All of this might be moot, though, as it seems many people who edit the climate section insert numbers to their liking that are not supported by either source. Thanks. Ufwuct 15:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

Within the article it states that the name Atlanta is derived from a feminisation of Atlantic; although the trivia section of Atalanta maintains that Atalanta is the indirect source. Shouldn't this be resolved? 81.208.165.173 21:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Civil Rights Musueum

So is it true that Atlanta is building a new civil rights musuem? I've heard talk about it being near the aquarium...if true, maybe a mention in the article? 131.96.170.32 20:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

You've heard right, but the project is still in the planning phase — and no location has been chosen yet, although Coca-Cola has offered the deed for the land by the aquarium. We should probably add this when the issue is more settled. —GGreeneVa 17:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The lead image shuffle (rant)

Can we please settle on a lead image without randomly swapping in photos, without comment or discussion on the talk page, of arguably low quality and/or that don't represent the full skyline? As I said yesterday, in an edit summary -- a tool we should all use, by the way (ahem!) -- the current pic, certainly put there in good faith, doesn't work. It leaves the skyline too blurry to make out, and the thick orange-ish smog makes matters worse.

Please, please, let's just stop it. We can certainly find a good, clear picture, and keep it there, without this needless shuffle. —GGreeneVa 06:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• I undid another insertion of the low-quality photo you're referring to. I agree with your assessment that it is inferior (for the reasons you listed) to the photo it replaced. My edit summary is inaccurate -its third insertion in 24 hours is not a 3RR violation (a fourth insertion would be). - Special-T 19:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

... stepping in again. The photo in the infobox seems well intentioned, but at the size required in that spot, it renders the skyline invisible — just a couple of dark pixels poking above the trees. I'm returning to the picture in the WikiProject Atlanta infobox. Any thoughts on alternaties, if people have strong feelings about this? —GGreeneVa 02:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. However, there appears to be some support for alterations to the relevant guideline, WP:NC:CITY. Dekimasuよ! 01:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

---

Atlanta, Georgia → Atlanta — Atlanta, GA is the most common usage of the term Atlanta. This move would follow similar moves relating to Philadelphia and Montreal Black Harry 06:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this is not a vote; comments must include reasons to carry weight.

Survey - in support of the move

• Support - As long as exceptions are allowed to exist, I'll support this move. If this is opposed, then all the exceptions - Chicago, Philadelphia, Montreal, and any others - should be changed too. - BillCJ 06:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support This is a clear case of primary topic usage as indicated by the redirect from the unqualified name. --Polaron | Talk 12:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - I think, however, that it should be clearer when to use the "city, state" format and when to just go with the city name. This is a guideline that has always been somewhat ambiguous. -Branddobbe 04:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

• Strong Oppose WP standard for US articles is "city, state" (which should be global standard IMO) and that is how it should be. To the above poster, I don't think there should be any exceptions and would support requests to move them back. TJ Spyke 06:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• well TJ this is wikipedia and anyone can edit, so why don't you take the steps to propose the move of article to the City, state format if that's your reason for opposing thisBlack Harry 06:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Concur. Guidelines exist for a reason, but if they aren't going to be enforced for some cities, it's somewhat hypocritical to force other city articles to abide by them too. - BillCJ 07:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'm just not motivated enough to put all the effort it would take to convince people to move them back. TJ Spyke 07:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• You seem motivated to vote a Stron oppose" here, and to defend it. I hardly think it takes much more effort to propose those cities be moved back. - BillCJ 07:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose per City, State standard and WP:PRECISION as well as the other laundry list of reasons to keep the article title as it is. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 06:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose For the same reasons that I have opposed similar moves in the past. Consistency within naming conventions is important and useful. Exceptional cases should be exceptional. Atlanta isn't. Any change should be done within the framework of the naming convention. The discussion over there is not close to consensus about this type of move. --- The Bethling^(Talk) 07:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'd say Atlantas counts as being exceptional. Someone mention Atlanta, and everyone knows they mean the one in Georgia. There are many other Philadelphias, much more than there are Atlantas. - BillCJ 07:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• By "not exceptional", I don't mean "not well known" or "not important". I mean that it is not exceptional in that following WP:NC:CITY doesn't harm the article, or make Wikipedia less navigable. I do think that degrading the existing convention by adding more and more exceptions does make WP less consistent and more confusing for users. I don't believe that Philadelphia should have been moved, and if I had been aware of the request at the time, I would have argued against it. --- The Bethling^(Talk) 07:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Standard way of referring to US cities in general is as Cityname, Statename, etc., etc. AJD 07:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. The "city, state" naming convention works well, and it works best when it's followed consistently. Among the advantages are that editors know how to link to them and readers know they are looking at a geographic link. I don't see any reason why "Atlanta, Georgia" should be an exception. -Will Beback · † · 08:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose for now There was previous discussion on the talk page of WP:NC:CITY about using the list of exceptions from the AP stylebook, including Atlanta. This would make a lot of sense. Encyclopaedia Britannica in fact has titles like "Montreal" or "Philadelphia" for its extended articles about major cities, and I think not using the state conveys to the reader in some measure the importance of the place. The result of the discussion was unfortunately "No consensus", so the "City, State" policy stands. If there is appetite for it, I would support using the AP list, but this would have to be a change at WP:NC:CITY. Joeldl 15:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose until there's a policy or guideline in place that we could agree on. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nicknames

The 4-0-4? I've never heard it called that. Any sources? Akubhai 17:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

How about adding 'The Dirty Dirty' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_South Dankind 18:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Atlanta Metro Expanding???

Is it true that the Atlanta metro area is expanding down to Macon? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soglad2005 (talk • contribs) 03:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

Expanding south towards Macon, yes. There is a good 60 mile stretch along I-75 between Forsyth and Macon that is completely rural. Future expansion is likely, but Macon's inclusion in the Atlanta metropolitan area, if it ever happens, is a long way off. Realize that the south is geographically large compared to the northeast; Atlanta and Macon are farther apart than New York City and Philadelphia, with nowhere near the population. Perhaps New York City and Scranton would be a better analogy.Apollo 17:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Private Schools

This section has been edited quite a bit, and I understand the point is not to include every private school -- merely "notable" ones -- however, unless someone can explain to me why two of Weber's feeder schools -- Greenfield Hebrew Academy and the Epstein School, and its chief rival, Yeshiva Atlanta (which I believe has a lower enrollment than Weber) are somehow more notable than Weber, then I disagree with its removal. I think all four schools either need to stay in, or all four need to go, but to delete one without investigating whether its inclusion has merit is not right. Danahuff 16:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Famous People

How many famous people are actually from ATLANTA, not the metro area? I'm sure the number of celebs would greatly decrease if i only people from Atlanta-Fulton County, GA were counted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soglad2005 (talk • contribs) 6 June 2007, 12:35 (GMT).

RACIAL MAKEUP of Atlanta's metro

I ran across this statement in the Demographics section, and I highly doubt its accuracy: "...Metro Atlanta, however, is a highly diverse landscape with communities from nearly every major ethnic group on Earth and no single race holds a majority status. The Metro area is approximately 43% White, 27% Black, and 30% other..." While I do not live in Atlanta, and have never been there, I am very skeptical that this is true. Even larger, more established metros do not demonstrate such high diversity, as the mostly-white suburbs far outnumber the mostly-minority city. If it can be verified, fine, but until then, it needs to be left out. I removed it. DBQer 01:49, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The best thing to do in such cases is to add a {{Fact}} tag, and give other editors a chance to find and add a source. Given the fact that you've never been to Atlanta, you have no real basis to prove it it is false, so leaving it in for a couple of weeks would be best at this point. I've re-added it with the tag. You are fully correct that such claims of any kind need to be sourced. - BillCJ 02:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Better yet, I'm adding a tag to it. Will remove dubious information in a couple days if no source.--Loodog 02:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Come on folks, US population figures are one of the easiest things to fact check; per the 2000 census, the Atlanta MSA is 63% white, 28.9% black, 3.3% asian, 2.8% other and 1.7% mixed.[2] As to the supposed exponential growth rates of Hispanics, well, that might be overstating it a bit; while the growth from 2000-2005 in the 10-county core area was substantially non-white - 73%, it was only 22.6% Hispanic.[3] Cite still needed on the other ethinic communities statement. AUTiger » talk 04:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I knew it sounded false. The 63/29 split sounds more realistic. One doesn't need to have been to Atlanta to know what typical/atypical figures are. That's for the 28-county region, I assume? DBQer 05:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

History and Giving Context for Atlanta Demographics - perhaps add numbers to population chart?

While Fulton County did not encompass all of what is today's Atlanta SMSA, I think it is misleading to provide only Atlanta city population numbers in the mid-19th c. While the city was established as a railroad terminus, it didn't exist by itself.

In 1860 Fulton County had a total of 14,427 people. There were 2955 enslaved African-Americans, 20.5% of the population. {{facts from UVA's Historical Census Browser, http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/stats/histcensus, based on US Census data}} While much of north GA was characterized by yeoman farmers who held few slaves, both Cobb and Fulton County also had planters (defined by historians as holding 20 or more slaves), who held numerous slaves for labor on large cotton plantations.

(I know more about Roswell in Cobb county, than Fulton, but the origins of major planters and the slaves they brought with them are likely similar. Roswell King and planters he invited to join him in his enterprise (at what became Roswell) were from the coast. According to material online by the Roswell Historical Society, King brought 36 slaves from his coastal plantation and bought another 42 at Darien, GA, to take with him to work on building his house, the cotton mill, and supporting buildings. Archibald Smith brought 36 slaves with him from his coastal plantations in St. Marys County and created a 300-acre cotton plantation in Roswell. King's idea was to have cotton production AND processing in the same place. (www.roswellhs.org; www.archibaldsmithplantation.org)

The forced migration of slaves from the coast to north GA meant they brought their unique Geechee culture and language with them. Where slaves were held in larger numbers on plantations, it's likely they kept their culture and traditions going. In 1850 the six largest slaveholders in Roswell held 200 slaves, nearly 10% of the total in the county. 1850 US Slave Schedules, Cobb Co, GA [db on-line], US Census Bureau, The Generations Network, Provo, UT, 2000; www.ancestry.com, and "Historical Census Browser", http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/stats/histcensus.)

Atlanta and Fulton County more than doubled in population from 1860 to 1870. People rushed to rebuild the city after the war. In a migration pattern typical of other areas after the Civil War, many newly freed African-Americans left plantations to move to town to work at trades or crafts, to have safety in numbers and to try to set up lives apart from white control.

By 1870 Fulton County had grown to 33,446 people. Among them were 15,282 "colored", as defined by the census, 45.7% of the population. {{fact, same UVA source as above, http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/stats/histcensus. (You can use the browser to sort for population cuts you want.)}}

Parkwells 21:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Introduction

The introduction is hardly introductory. It's way the hell too long. Compare to the intros of featured articles like New York City, and Boston. There's a lot of trivia up there: how forested the city is, single family housing starts, as well as a whole history of its blackness. Some of this simply must be removed and placed in its appropriate place in the article. I'm first stating this here so that regular editors may agree or offer objections before I remove lead material.--Loodog 22:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Go for it! The usual lead paragraphs count for an article this size is 3-4, while there's 5 hre, one very shour and one very long. I the the CIvil rights/"blackness" paragraph should be moved completelty, while the rest can be cut back. - BillCJ 00:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

WHOA! I didn't see this comment before. While the lead certainly isn't perfect you have now eviscerated one of the most important parts of Atlanta's psyche and culture from the lead. The Civil Rights movement in Atlanta was a key part of shaping modern Atlanta and to hack all mention of it from the lead shows a serious lack of knowledge of the city. To compare with your FA article for Providence, Rhode Island, noting the influence of the Civil Rights movement is equally important to Atlanta as silver/jewelry is to Providence and substantially moreso than being "home to eight hospitals and seven institutions of higher learning." I'm restoring pending a more judicious editing that maintains the relevant impact. AUTiger » talk 03:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Very well. I have no problem with leaving it as it stands now.--Loodog 01:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Trimming the fat

This is a 100kb article when Los Angeles gets by on 80kb, Chicago with 83, the featured articles Boston, Massachusetts, Providence, Rhode Island, and Houston, Texas on 79, 72, and 80 respectively. There's a lot that can be done to improve the readability of this article. I've created split off articles for Culture and history, and plan on trimming down those sections soon.--Loodog 03:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)