Talk:Automated teller machine/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Wood green

Wood Green / Enfield Town - I've seen several sources that say it was in Enfield Town (on Church Street). I've walked past the plaque that marks the spot. Why do you think it was in Wood Green? - Khendon 10:16 Oct 1, 2002 (UTC)

Yes, it's definitely Enfield Town, not Wood Green. My apologies: I have a feeling that one of the earliest 2nd-generation cash dispensers was in Wood Green: I'll try to dig out a cite. The Anome

Card retention

Typically, if the number is entered incorrectly several times in a row, most ATMs will retain the card as a security precaution to prevent an unauthorised user from working out the PIN by pure guesswork.

The last 100-odd times I've had recourse to an ATM, I was required to merely swipe my card, rather than insert it into the machine. Is this peculiar to New York, to urban areas, to the US? --Charles A. L. 01:15, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

In my bailiwick "swipers" are used mainly by retailers, but "inserters" are used by banks and ATM's. mydogategodshat 04:40, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Lately most lower-end, stand alone ATMs have been equipped with card swipe or "dip" readers. These keep costs down as they have no moving parts to break. However, there have been incidents of ATM customers jamming their cards into the receipt printer slot when confronted with a swipe reader, jamming the printer and costing the customer a card. Brian Schlosser42
In the US, swipers are most common. In the UK though, merchants had both inserters and swipers but in many cases have the inserer more conviently located. And also note that while for the US, fast swiping is prefered by the readers, in the UK slow swiping is prefered by them. Basicaly, the UK merchants only use the swipers to read those cards without a chip (mostly older ones in the UK and virtually all American ones).

Spam

the last user seems to have added genesis-solution.com as an advertisement for the website. 202.147.191.138 is from pakistan and the added line was "cool machines from pakistan". deleted. Drunkasian 07:59, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

ATM specifications

No worthy merge material found. The other page has been listed for speedy delete. Noisy 14:37, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Deposits

I removed the line about customers not being able to make deposits at machines that did not belong to the bank their account was based at. Several times over the past year I've been able to deposit checks at machines belonging to banks other than the one my account is based at.
If you deposit $1,000.00 cash and mistakenly type in $100.00 you will never get your $900.00 back.

Pictures

Eek. The first two pictures are pretty bad. If someone has a better ATM photo, please upload and link it. I'll try and take one myself.

Thanks. kmccoy (talk) 04:17, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've uploaded a picture of a Canadian ATM, from a CIBC branch. It's at [[1]] Let me know if you want any more - or if the quality is unacceptable. Cheers, Apfejes 20:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Automatic or automated?

Shouldn't it be Automated Teller Machine? It "automates" the functions of a teller, right? I've always wondered about this... (some anonymous dude)

You're probably right. I assume some marketer came up with the current name, though, and it stuck, even if it's not quite grammatically correct. --Coolcaesar 03:50, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Edited: added "Banklink"

Removed reference to "Drinklink" which, despite the claim is not used in the United Kingdom, and not often in Ireland.

Replaced it with Banklink (from which "Drinklink" is derived). ATMs from different institutions are commonly referred to as "Banklinks" (i.e "I'm going to the banklink")

Talking ATMs merge here

Talking ATMs seems to duplicate information in this article and not adding much additional information. Should that article be merged into this one? Vegaswikian 05:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I realize that this section deals with Talking ATMs designed to aid the blind that employ headphone jacks, but it implies that there were no "talking ATMs" in the US before 1999. Many annoying talking ATMs existed long prior to that, however, that speak instructions right out load over a speaker by default. (In the South, Publix grocery stores still have ATMs that do this (Publix's "Presto" ATMs.)) Obviously these are different than ATMs with audible interface for the blind, but, they are certainly "talking ATMs." 70.145.102.253 04:03, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

In Japan most cash machines are talking. A voice tells things such as "please insert the card or bank book", and the buttons on the panels are usually accompanied by Braille script. The displays are usually touch-sensitive, but this function is useless if you can't see what's shown on the display. This article suggests that all talking cash machines feature headphones, but no talking cash machines that I have seen in Japan have headphones. (218.228.195.44 14:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

ATM-Applications

What uses ATM applications? Most popular applications. (not operating systems, ATM-applications!) 1() 23:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

ATM crimes

I removed the "ATM crimes" section because it was almost completely off-topic, and any relevant parts were not very informative. I also changed the titles of some sections to remove redundancy (e.g. "ATM fraud" reduced to simply "Fraud", as nobody is reading this article to learn about credit fraud, or postal fraud).

ATM fraud started in the 2000s?

"In the early 2000s, ATM-specific crimes became common."

This seems misleading. ATM fraud has been happening since the devices first came out. This paper covers some of the ATM fraud from the mid eighties and onward, and it was published in 1993! This is hardly something new to the oughts. -- -- Bobdoe (Talk) 06:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Whomever wrote that must have been a teenager. I clearly remember all the sensationalism in the American media about bank patrons being robbed at gunpoint at ATMs back in the early 1990s (which is why us Americans have so many drive-thru ATMs now). Plus there's the separate crime of hooking up a truck to the ATM and driving away with it. --Coolcaesar 23:49, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Cash machines

ATMs in the U.K. are called Cash machines. This alternative usage should be noted in the article. 129.234.4.10 11:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Nobody in the UK calls them ATMs, although this term is sometimes used where there is only enough space for a short abbreviation (Barclays bank statements used to use it). I'm inserting the more common term cash machine in the introduction. Also, I've never heard anyone use the term "teller". NFH 22:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
That's funny — the term "teller" is in common use in the United States for a bank clerk. Both my regular dictionary (Merriam-Webster's) and my law dictionary (Black's) have a definition for teller. We've clearly stumbled across yet another difference between American and British English. --Coolcaesar 05:08, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it is often called an ATM machine, which, if you work it out, stands for "Automatic Teller Machine Machine". Not sure what to do with this factoid, I just find it interesting that people say it without ever stopping to think what they are really saying. (I used to say it myself until a friend pointed it out to me.) Tannin
It's usually the same people who talk about their Personal Identification Number number.--Jeffro77 00:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

ABM

The article noted that "ABM" is often substituted for "ATM" in Canada. I have never heard this expression outside of Toronto, so allowing for regional influence I've updated it to 'eastern Canada.' 65.95.205.172 01:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

  • ABM is also the standard name in almost half the countries in the Americas... (Esp. in the Caribbean also) since all of the large banks are Canadian owned there. As far as Canada I wont even post all the URL's to the banks but even see Interac's website http://interac.ca/ "ABM" is mentioned there as well. CaribDigita 16:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 21:48, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Automatic teller machine → Automated teller machine – It should be automated not automatic. An "automatic teller" does not even make sense. Some sources give the incorrect name, but the American Heritage Dictionary and Columbia Encyclopedia both use "automated teller machine". Automatic teller machine would redirect to automated teller machine and both would be listed at the top of the article, but the article's name should be the accurate one. -- Kjkolb 04:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support. I just checked MSN Encarta's online dictionary and the phrase there is also "automated teller machine." So Wikipedia has had the article under the wrong title all along. How embarrassing! --Coolcaesar 01:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Support The OED states that it is an "automated (orig. automatic) teller machine" (source (subscription)). --Lox (t,c) 17:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral Both are acceptable. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Merriam-Webster and Random House Unabridged all list "automatic teller machine" as correct alternatives. Google has 573.000 to 396.000 hits for automated/automatic, respectively. It also seems to be a regional difference: If you search on Australian sites, it's only 815 to 24.400, so hardly anyone down under seems to use the "-ed" version. And in the UK neither expression is used. An "automatic teller" might not make sense, but read it as "automatic (teller machine)" and it does make sense. So there's no need for embarrassment whatsoever, and no need for a move. -- H005 20:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

paragraph deletion

The following paragraph was deleted by 202.62.228.47 (talk · contribs):

In the United Kingdom, public reaction to proposed increases in fees was so strong that fees were removed altogether for using ATMs at banks, regardless of whether the user is a customer of that bank. However, each time a bank's customer uses a rival bank's ATM, the customer's bank has to pay a fee to the rival bank, which the customer's bank absorbs. As a result, First Direct wrote to its customers in December 2005 asking its customers wherever possible to use ATMs of HSBC, its parent bank, in order to keep First Direct's costs down. There are a growing number of machines in locations such as garages, nightclubs and other venues which do charge. The fee is usually between £1.50 and £2.00, but occasionally they have been known to charge up to £5 and in one central London club £10. There has been some debate in recent years about the location of machines which charge in deprived areas, where the larger banks which would have provided free ATMs have closed branches.

I don't see a good reason for it to be, except that it has a subtle unencyclopedic tone; but not horrible. Feel free to revert it, but I wanted it recorded that it was taken out. - CobaltBlueTony 19:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to see that paragraph sourced, particularly the London club with a 10 pound charge. (In May 2006, to buy £10 it typically cost about $20) Jon 14:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Examples in the Usage Fees heading

Under the Usage Fees heading there are a few examples listing fees associated with ATMs. However none of these examples have been given context to define them as American or any other type of dollar. Perhaps somebody with a bit more knowledge of the subject could clean this section up? I've flagged it with a Worldwide View template notice. 147.10.80.19 20:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC) Grant

I think it can be safety assumed that $ without a nationality is the American version. But I'll leave the Worldwide View template in place because it doesn't have any mentions of Japan or other Industrialized Asian nation nor any 3rd world countries. Jon 14:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Please site sources in this section as well. The $9 fee somewhere in the US and 10 pound fee in London both strength credibility. Jon 14:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Best I could find for the US in print is $6 so far... While there are some concerns about how usage fees affect the ATM installation base, wouldn't this portion be better served as a separate article? PrimroseGuy 27 July 2006

The dance club Mons Venus in Tampa has a $9 dollar fee at its a.t.m.Mmcknight4 21:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Remember that in order to mention it, we need a news report or someone mentioning that so we can reference it.PrimroseGuy 01:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Regional/US content... (Canada)

Hi, I'd just like to point out that the things about the US also apply to Canada (or at least Ottawa). So many references to "US" can be changed to refer to "North America"; however, I recognize that this is still regional. This includes:

  • Banks charge fees (usually $1.50-$2) to withdraw money if you are a customer of a different bank
  • Non-bank ATMs, which are prevalent in corner stores, grocery stores, take-out places, outdoor festivals, etc. also charge $2 per withdrawal
  • Non-bank ATMs (I believe) make up the bulk of ATM expansion (I recall reading an article about this, but haven't the foggiest idea where)

- RealGrouchy 18:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC) [not watching this page]

Attached telephones for customer service calls?

I'm watching a 1985 episode of Moonlighting, in which a character stops at an ATM at LAX. After he inserts his card, a telephone attached to the ATM rings; a customer service rep asks him for verifying information such as mother's maiden name, birthplace, etc., and then telling him that the card was cancelled. It looks like there are instructions on the ATM explaining that this will occur if there is a problem with the card. Was this feature common at one time? Postdlf 03:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

All Japanese cash machines are accompanied by a telephone for customer service. Possibly for this reason, Japanese cash machines don't operate 24 hours a day, but close during night and are often unavailable on Sundays and public holidays. (218.228.195.44 14:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

Australia

In Australia we use the terms ATM and Cash Machine interchangeably. I've even heard Bank Machine. Ozdaren 23:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Good Article

This article seems to be very English-speaking nation centered. It doesn't focus at all on the 3rd world, which now also uses ATMs. After expanding it to be more wordly, it should defintely be a Good Article. --GoOdCoNtEnT 19:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

  • brought in more worldwide content, removed limited geographic scope content to separate article PrimroseGuy 17:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for not promoting

The issues I mentioned in the peer review. Most notably the structural and length issues. That said, with just a bit more tinkering this could be a really great article. Cedars 03:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Passed Good Article nomination

I have no doubt that this is a good article. However, before trying to get it featured, I'd reccomend clearing up some of the bulleted lists.Some P. Erson 14:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Foreign terms

"An ATM is also known, in English, as an Automat (Europe), Automated Banking Machine or Bank Machine (Canada), Bancomat (Central Europe, Eastern Europe, Italy, and Switzerland), Bankomat (Sweden and Poland), Cash Machine (UK), Cashpoint (New Zealand, UK), or Minibank (Norway)." -- In what sense is Bankomat an English-language term, if it's used in Sweden and Poland but not in English-speaking countries? Similarly Bancomat? The same question applies to Minibank (just because it's made up of English words doesn't mean it's an English word, rather than a Norwegian word created from English words!) and probably to Automat. --86.142.110.97 17:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

"Foreign" to whom? The United States you mean right? CaribDigita 04:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
For Bancomat, Bankomat, and Automat, I think the case is more that since English is not the dominant language in those locales, the local English speakers have adopted the dominant language's term for the device to English. The use of that term would be used in an English sentence without other local English speakers being uncertain as to what the original speaker was talking about, nor would it necessarily have to make sense to people outside that region. Perestroika is an example of a Russian-language term that is accepted as a word in English in a similar fashion. See Loanwords.
As for Minibank, I'll accept it because it's pretty obvious what they're getting at, I've heard the term before in this context, and if you do a tracert on 129.177.236.184 who added it [2], the IP resolve for me to uib-nh-gw.uib.no.  :-) PrimroseGuy 20:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Dispensed Denominations

Does anyone have concrete knowledge of the cash denominations that are commonly dispense in different countries? In Oz, I've yet to come across an ATM that offerred anything other than $20s and $50s. Reason I've been told is due to the logistics of cash supply. - Htra0497 22:40, 4 October 2006 (AET)

Depends on customer and historical preference, fraud rates of the various denominations, how the local currency is denominated, currency inflation rates, how much risk the ATM provider wants to take of leaving money in the vault, and insurance premiums charged for the money in the vault. I'm sure there's more factors, but that's a good starting point. PrimroseGuy 13:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
£10 and £20 in the UK, except on Friday nights, when it's only £20 cos the machines have run out of tenners... ;)

Check that ... I just stumbled across an Oz ATM that dispensed only $50s and $100s. There was a big sign that flashed up onto the screen as a warning. It was at a CBA branch in Sydney which had half a dozen or so ATMs outside. Very excited, guess I was lucky. Htra0497 16:48, 18 October 2006 (AET)

Back in the 1980's ATM's im Australia used to be $10 and $20. Banks make a decision based on average withdrawals and daily withdrawal limits.Garrie 23:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
There still are (were? - at least in the late 90s) some ATMs in Australia (in Sydney) that also dispensed $10s (in addition to $20s and $50s). I haven't seen any that provide $100s in Australia, though I'm sure they exist. Most ATMs in Europe provide €20s and €50s (and maybe €10s), but some give €100s (the only one I saw was in a casino in Vienna). Pretty sure £50s are available from ATMs in UK.--Jeffro77 01:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Too many images

This article contains 23 images of ATMs. Way too many, if you ask me. What do you think? --CrazyLegsKC 00:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, though I note that a large percentage do illustrate some unusal aspect, such as system crashes, special scanners, internal workings, etc. Perhas we can just trim some of the more conventional depictions. -Will Beback 01:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
One of the things that the pictures do is to help illustrate that there are many different types of ATMs. What is "conventional" for one person around the world may be quite different for another. [[3]] would probably be a reasonable reference here, especially if the intent is made for FA status (which it currently has a reasonable shot at, I think). PrimroseGuy 17:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
If the pictures overwhelm the text some of them can be moved into a wikipedia:image gallery. -Will Beback 12:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It is also worth noting there is not one picture of a receipt, couldn't someone censor the details of there account on a receipt then upload the pic?

ATM fraud?

http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1160322342/ATM_Scam

Found this short about an ATM scam involving entering a code on the keypad which would fool the machine into handing out $20 bills as if they were $5 ones. I assume these things have data ports for local maintenance / update purposes located somewhere inside the machine so I find it unlikely that you'd be able to change the denotation of one of the stacks of bills to something else from a publically accessible interface. Any thoughts on this? -- MiG 20:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this type of attack is real. Read the "Operational Fraud" section and links. PrimroseGuy 20:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 03:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

History

The history section is dubious at best because it identifies the voucher based cash dispensing machine in London as the first ATM. The cash dispensers in London required pre-paid vouchers or plastic & required the Bank customers using these machines to purchase more cards since the machines did not return the card after the transaction. The first ATM machine as we know them today was installed in 1969 at the Chemical Bank in New York and it was not until 1971 that a full service ATM (including deposits) was installed. The concept for the ATM machine (not the simple cash dispenser)was developed by James Goodfellow of Scotland in 1966. The paragraph should be rewritten so as to be fully accurate and giving credit to all those involved in developing the ATM. See http://www.atmmachine.com/atm-inventor.html and http://www.thocp.net/hardware/atm.htm#124.27.205.125 22:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Be bold! Make the changes you suggest. -Will Beback · † · 23:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

User:74.115.79.10 has edited the History section to attribute the idea of a PIN stored on the card to John Rose; until now it referred to James Goodfellow. I can see from the references that there is indeed some controversy on the matter (though the patent lists Goodfellow among the inventors). But is there any source for the inventor being Rose, or is this simple vandalism? Aheppenh 02:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a recent interview [4] where Sheperd-Barron implies that the PIN was his invention -- or at least, selection of only 4 digits because that's all his wife could remember.

Telecommunications

An automated teller machine (ATM) is a computerized telecommunications device ...

I find that missleading. There were (and maybe still are) ATMs which are standalone devices with no communications link to a host. The word telecommunications suggests that an ATM is only an ATM if it is connected to a host or network.

I'd like to know more about these off-line cash machines

Redirect needed?

I have noticed that when you type in atm it goes to a disambiguation page. Surely 95% of people who type in ATM are looking for this page. I think ATM should automatically redirect to this page, and if they are one of the minority looking for other ATM acronym, theyn are then given the option to go to the disambiguation page. Tarcus 06:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Judging from your contributions to WP, it looks like you're not into technology much. Most people who fly, use a computer network, or do graphic design (or have a casual interest in any of the three) may be more interested in the other meanings of ATM. I'm referring, of course, to air traffic management, Asynchronous Transfer Mode, or Adobe Type Manager. Indeed, over a decade ago, when I was too young to be trusted with an ATM card, I equated ATM more often with the network protocol or the font manager program since I encountered the letters ATM in those contexts much more often.
You also need to keep in mind that the millions of small businesspeople who handle cash receivables for a living do not visit ATMs very much. Their biggest problem is depositing all the cash they receive, not getting cash out of an ATM. And that kind of transaction usually has to be handled by a bank teller who double-checks the deposit slip and ensures the bills and coins are sorted and bundled properly (I also have personal experience with this from a long time ago). --Coolcaesar 22:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Ditto, Asynchronous Transfer Mode is very common

Fair call. I still stand by my opinion, but I'd encourage anyone with an opinion to put in there 2c, regardless of there view. Tarcus 08:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Transactional secrecy and integrity - Not all data is protected

In "Transactional secrecy and integrity" it states that sensitive data is protected with DES. My understanding is that only the MAC and the PIN are encrypted (with 3DES not just single DES) and other sensitive data is not protected. For example this is possible: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article637003.ece —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.152.115.183 (talk) 04:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

First sentences

Can we remove 'An' on starting article? As per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#First_sentences, article should start without 'A', 'An' 'The' etc. We may start this article with 'Automated teller machine (ATM)', not 'An automated teller machine (ATM) '

'Bauani' • Talk2me 17:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:MOS does not say that articles should not start with, er, articles: in fact some of the examples given include both definite and indefinite articles. I'm restoring the "An" here, as "Automated teller machine (ATM) is a computerized telecommunications device..." is not idiomatic English. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 23:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

GA delisted

As the result of a GA Sweeps review that can be found here, this article has been delisted. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:07, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

What about countries?

In the list of ATM services around the world I think there should be some possibility of acknowledging easily the service that is used in a certain country.

For example, I would like to know what's the withdrawl limit in ATM in France... But I find no simple way of doing it.

512upload (talk) 20:03, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Health card rips off ATM for $100,000

LOL! Here's a source for anyone wanting to expand the Automated teller machine#Security section:

http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/16.92.html#subj1

Unbelievable...

-- OlEnglish (Talk) 00:07, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Simjian invention claim

"The first mechanical cash dispenser was developed and built by Luther George Simjian" the text currently claims. However, the source says nothing about a "mechanical cash dispenser",it mentions a "hole-in-the-wall machine that would allow customers to make financial transactions" which could mean anything. It is also obvious that automatic "mechanical cash dispensers" have been around for decades before that time - they are called slot machines. There is nothing in the source to directly suggest that what Simjian invented has anything directly to do with an ATM as we would know it. Meowy 18:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Did Simjian's invention dispense cash?

Ross Anderson's book "Security Engineering," (2d Edition; 2008) on P. 333, in its section on ATMs, attributes the first ATM to inventor Simjian, describing them as "large-scale retail transaction processing systems." Anderson says Citicorp's 1939 model was withdrawn afterwards because the only ones using it were prostitutes and gamblers. He cites the same MIT website as this article.

Though there's no mention of an explicit ability to dispense cash I'd guess prostitutes and gamblers in 1939 were making cash transactions -- and not transferring direct deposit funds into secondary accounts or selling puts.

Also of historical notation, another one of the first ATMs was located in Columbus, Ohio at the Buckeye Federal Savings and Loan Bank on the far east side (Hamilton & Livingston Avenues). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.198.37 (talk) 22:56, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

"The History of the Automated Teller Machine," a website article by Billings Farnsworth, calls Simijian's 1939 ATM "the first mechanical cash dispenser."

DonL (talk) 10:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Who invented the ATM?

The introduction of this article claims that IBM invented the ATM and it was first put into use in 1972 by Lloyds Bank. Further paragraphs go on to claim multiple inventors at multiple dates, other banks, and patents; the narrative is inconsistent and untrustworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.234.175.66 (talk) 21:43, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

As stated in the article the IBM 2984 was designed by IBM for Lloyds Bank. It was the first example of modern ATMs because it contained the major features found in ATMs used today. It was connected to a network with two computer centres and a large number of end points. It used "start-stop" protocols. Magnetic cards and PINs could be used at any end point. Each transaction was verified on-line to check the previous overnight balance, a hot card list and the number of withdrawals in the day. It captured transactions on-line for debiting in that days overnight processing. In the 1970s it did not debit the account in real time as stated in the article. The system included proprietary cryptography algorithms. Machines were originally used inside the bank or its lobby and later upgraded for external, "though the wall", 24/7 operation. The IBM 3624 was a standard IBM product and used IBM SNA communication protocols and DES encryption algorithms. Pastera (talk) 13:26, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Motivation

Why do banks offer this service? It must cost a fair bit of money to keep them in operation, and I dont believe I've ever paid a penny to use one

Woscafrench (talk) 00:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

You are lucky. In the United States, most machines apply a surcharge of $1.50 to $3.00 per transactions to users who are not customers of the bank operating the machine. In the right location these machines can be quite profitable to the owner. The bank in turn applies its own additional surcharge. Although it does cost the bank some money, it is also a convenience to its customers so it is part of the bank services included in having an account. Further, it reduces the human labor and rental space that the bank would have to maintain if the customers performed the transactions before a live teller in the branch. - Wikidemon (talk) 09:15, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Bank Tellers are expensive, Machines are cheap. They provide the service so they don't have to employ as many people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.91.9.115 (talk) 07:20, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Card skimming and duplicating

I think card cloning and card skimming should be mentioned in both this article and Credit card fraud, but there should be a main article for both called something like "Bank card skimming and duplicating". Facts707 (talk) 19:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Apparent contradiction

The introduction of the article makes an unsourced and unreferenced claim that Scotsman John Shepherd-Barron "invented" the ATM machine in 1967. However, this sentence contradicts and runs contrary to what the history section entails which says that before 1959, Armenian inventor Luther George Simjian invented the first cash dispensing machine. Likewise, an ATM machine was used in Japan even before developments took place in the UK.

I have also found reference from MIT that Simjian may have in fact, evidenced in his 20 or so patents, invented the ATM or "hole in the wall" around 1939 which was much earlier than 1959 (as sourced in the article as it is). [5]

It would be nice for a change to get a non-British and a more global viewpoint to this contradictory which adds nothing but undue weight article. Yoganate79 (talk) 22:20, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

And again, Smijian is supported to have invented the ATM machine in 1939 while Shepherd-Barron's came much later in 1967. [6] [7][8] Yoganate79 (talk) 22:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

From Ireland...

Well, Yoganate79, CNN have just given an answer as to the first use of the ATM and gave three options to the question they had asked, earlier and that is why I came here to check: New York, London and Japan were the options. . They have just given the answer, which is London and it's use in 1967 - and they also spoke of John Shepherd-Barron as the inventer. So, just thought I would add this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.77.44 (talk) 03:04, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

  • The problems described by Yoganate79 seem to be fixed, so I've removed the tags. —rybec 04:50, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

first atm

The June 27 wikipedia page lists the first ATM as the one installed in Enfield Town in 1967, however the page here lists one that was first operated in 1959, in Ohio. Which of the two is correct, or are they different types of ATM machine or whatnot? CybergothiChé word to your mother 01:35, 27 June 2012 (UTC)


The first "true" ATM, for the reasons stated above was the IBM 2984 developed at IBM Hursley Park for Lloyds Bank in the UK. None of the previous claimants would be recognised as an ATM today because they did not interact with the bank's computer system and only issued fixed amounts of cash, based an a voucher/card which was retained by the machine.

Nonsensical claim should be removed

I feel that this article should get rid of one of the nonsensical statements in it. It says that many banks charge fees for use of ATMs - this is not so, although there are some ATMs that do involve payment of fees, most of those at banks are very good and do not charge money for their use. There have been those that charge money - ATMs charging money are normally at shops. This article could point out that it was not until 1998 that ATMs began to charge money. It could also point out how controversial the concept of an ATM that charges money for its use has been, as any one who ever reads any newspapers will know full well.ACEOREVIVED (talk) 15:47, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe you're misunderstanding the statement about fees. When it says that the bank charges fees, this isn't referring to the physical bank branch that an ATM might be within. This is referring to the bank (meaning the company, ie Chase, Citigroup, etc.) charging a fee, regardless of where the ATM is located. As for the other information you want added, please provide reliable sources and someone will probably make an edit. Or you could just add the sourced information to the article yourself, since I'm pretty sure this isn't a protected page. -- Fyrefly (talk) 17:11, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Image of ATM with person

DO you think this image would be useful in the article? Cogiati (talk) 20:19, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Foreign Exchange

I think it is misleading to say that when withdrawing money in a different currency, "the money will be converted at an official wholesale exchange rate", although it is probably true to say "ATMs often provide one of the best possible official exchange rates for foreign travellers". As the cited article points out, there will almost always be a flat fee or percentage added. (There's a small number of accounts, at least in the UK, where they do not make any charge). Alternatively, some ATMS will offer to charge you in your own currency, and there will always be a percentage mark-up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.255.115 (talk) 11:37, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Reverse PIN entry claims

The Security section claims that in some countries entering your PIN backwards sounds an alarm at the police station. Snopes.com claims this urban myth is entirely untrue in the USA (some attempt was made to implement it, and there's a patent, but it's never been done) but this is insufficient to declare that it's not true worldwide. Needs a citation or removal.

http://www.snopes.com/business/bank/pinalert.asp

128.243.253.108 (talk) 11:29, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

... and it would be unhelpful to anyone whose PIN number is (say) 4664. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 17:58, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Early patents

I'm not sure just where this should fit in. I invented the idea of an "Access Controller" with a patent applied for in 1962 and granted in 1964. I think it is closer to the ATM machine than L. G. SIMJIAN's one and predates the other patents mentioned. The idea came about because of a problem Shell Oil had with an unattended coin operated gas pump, where the local yobos thought it funny to pump the gas onto the ground and set light to it. I was working for W.S.Atkins and Partners at the time and realized my solution had universal application. The current use of a credit card to buy gas is the original idea.

Brit Pat 959,713 "Access Controller" dated June 1964, applied for Feb 1962. Inventor Adrian Walter Francis Ashfield. Link to first page http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=959713A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=&date=19640603&DB=&&locale=en_EP I think it at least deserves a mention.

W.S.A. never did anything with it (probably forgot they even had it) and as it was assigned to them I had no incentive to follow it up myself. I was paid 10 shillings for it, like all patents.

Any suggestions? Parallel (talk) 21:13, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

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Why was this moved?

The more common phrase among the majority of English speakers worldwide (because American English has by far the highest number of native speakers) is ATM.

If you search Google for "cash machine," the vast majority of results are get-rich-quick schemes. Any objections before I move this back to the more common title? --Coolcaesar (talk) 13:09, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I object. The article's title was not ATM. That's too ambiguous (hence the disambiguation page), so its title was Automated teller machine. Nowhere in the world is the article's subject most commonly known by that phrase (as opposed to its abbreviation). Even where "ATM" is the most common designation, one is far more likely to encounter "ATM machine" (reflecting a lack of knowledge that the "M" stands for "machine").
On my end, a Google search for "cash machine" yields page after page of results pertaining to this article's subject (including reliable news sources, some of which are in the United States), with only a few other usages (most of which are styled as the proper name "Cash Machine") mixed in. It's significantly more common than "automated teller machine" and compliant with MOS:COMMONALITY. —David Levy 16:08, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
At first I was going to concede the point last month, but then sat on the issue while I thought about it.
Then I just I realized I needed to run more selective and carefully structured searches and immediately saw the problem.
The underlying issue is that American English has traditionally used the term "cash machine" to mean a get-rich-quick scheme. However, it looks like over the past two decades, some American English speakers on the East Coast have become much more receptive than those on the West Coast to also using it as a synonym for ATMs (most likely due to cultural exchange as a result of frequent transatlantic flights). And in turn, the phrase "cash machine" keeps recurring in East Coast newspaper articles as a synonym for ATM.
But West Coast speakers still rarely use the term "cash machine"; or if they use it at all, they use it as slang in an informal register. The small number of West Coast newspaper articles that use the term seem to be taken from newswires or written by East Coast transplants.
One way to discern how the term "cash machine" is not universally understood in American English as obviously meaning "ATM" is to search for the phrase on song lyrics Web sites. All the results coming back for "cash machine" appear to be from British bands and singers. But if you search for "ATM" on those same sites, a huge number of songs from American bands and singers come up right away. What's probably happening is that East Coast songwriters are trying to prepare lyrics that are universally understood across the United States, which means they end up using the universal term "ATM" and not the regional term "cash machine." --Coolcaesar (talk) 09:59, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Your hypothesis seems plausible, but given Wikipedia's international readership, it has little bearing on which term is most suitable as the article's title. —David Levy 19:38, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Again, I must respectfully disagree. The last time I checked, this is the English Wikipedia, not the valley girl or slang Wikipedia. We rarely, if ever, use slang terms used primarily in oral English for article titles, unless the article is about a slang usage in and of itself. For example, we have an article titled personal water craft, the term in common usage in industry literature and the English-speaking maritime community, even though consumers frequently refer to them as Jet Skis.
If you search Google Books for "cash machine uk" versus "automated teller machine uk," a lot more of the results for the latter are business, legal, and financial textbooks, while a lot more of the results for the former tend to be consumer-oriented books like novels and travel guidebooks. That is, even in British English, there is an implicit recognition by people who write or edit for a living that "automated teller machine" (or variants) is the common usage when writing in a formal register (i.e., for a textbook) while "cash machine" is the common usage when writing in an informal register. --Coolcaesar (talk) 02:08, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
"Cash machine" is neither slang nor a trademark (as in the "Jet Ski" example). It's a common name for the article's subject, widely used by reliable sources (including those appearing in print) around the world. As noted at Wikipedia:Article titles, "the choice of article titles should put the interests of readers before those of editors, and those of a general audience before those of specialists." When feasible, our terminology usually bears a closer resemblance to that of a newspaper than it does to that of a textbook or other industry literature.
Also, if you're under the impression that including "uk" in a Google Books search limits the results to UK publications, you're mistaken; "UK" (or another term that Google considers a match) need only be mentioned in the text. —David Levy 04:15, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually, I have experience with about a dozen programming languages plus x86 assembly, and I've written parsers in C#, Java, and JavaScript. I deliberately structured those search strings as noted in order to search text broadly, not to limit those searches to UK-only publications. The reason for such a natural language search with the "uk" keyword in the text strings (I did not use quote marks around the strings as entered into Google Books) was to pick up text from all sources that might note in passing the British flavor of a particular usage. That should have been obvious to any experienced researcher.
The problem with your reading of "Article titles" is that you are implicitly reading "readers" and "general audience" as speakers of British English, and you are implying that readers of textbooks are "specialists." Lay students (non-specialists) read textbooks. Real specialists don't need textbooks. They read professional journals and professional treatises. You do know the difference between a textbook and a treatise, right?
Far more English Wikipedia editors and readers are speakers of American English, in which the primary meaning of "cash machine" is "get rich quick," as one would immediately realize by browsing any large American bookstore or public library and paying close attention to how the phrase is actually used in American English. For example, a leading authority on American English, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, marks "cash machine" as a British usage.
"Cash machine" is a parochial British usage. The far more common usage in American English (and many other Englishes) has always been the more elegant, clearer, and unambiguous "automated teller machine". Please review WP:NPOV and WP:NOT. (Wikipedia takes a neutral point of view and Wikipedia is not a soapbox.) --Coolcaesar (talk) 15:30, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
No response. I have moved this back to the more common and less ambiguous usage: automated teller machine. Next time, please assess consensus before changing article titles. I always do. --Coolcaesar (talk) 18:09, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Coolcaesar: "No response"? That was my impression. (For months, I checked back from time to time.) Then more months elapsed and you replied without pinging me. Did you expect me to notice?
My objection (which you invited) notwithstanding, you were welcome to move back the article at any time. I renamed it in good faith, explained my reasoning in good faith, and assumed that you were satisfied. At no point have I sought to override consensus. When I'm less busy, I'll initiate a move request (and notify you, of course). —David Levy 20:18, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
I deliberately structured those search strings as noted in order to search text broadly, not to limit those searches to UK-only publications. The reason for such a natural language search with the "uk" keyword in the text strings (I did not use quote marks around the strings as entered into Google Books) was to pick up text from all sources that might note in passing the British flavor of a particular usage.
A person writing about this subject in an international context doesn't typically adjust his/her terminology in accordance with local flavor. Unless focusing on the terminology itself (which usually isn't the case), he/she simply refers to it by a particular name and mentions its use in various countries.
The problem with your reading of "Article titles" is that you are implicitly reading "readers" and "general audience" as speakers of British English,
I don't know what gave you that impression. It would be a peculiar position for me to take, given that I'm American.
I cited MOS:COMMONALITY, noting that "cash machine" is widely used across multiple English varieties (including American).
and you are implying that readers of textbooks are "specialists."
I'm implying that writers of textbooks are specialists.
Far more English Wikipedia editors and readers are speakers of American English,
That's true, but it isn't the only valid consideration. (Otherwise, the entire encyclopedia would be written in that variety.)
in which the primary meaning of "cash machine" is "get rich quick," as one would immediately realize by browsing any large American bookstore or public library and paying close attention to how the phrase is actually used in American English.
Evidently, my experience as a speaker of American English differs from yours. As you wrote in June, perhaps this is a matter of regional usage.
I don't assert that "cash machine" is the predominant term in the United States. "ATM" is, but that's too ambiguous to serve as the article's title. I'm comparing the usage of "cash machine" with that of "automated teller machine", both in the United States and internationally.
The far more common usage in American English (and many other Englishes) has always been the more elegant, clearer, and unambiguous "automated teller machine".
How often do you hear someone call it that (as opposed to "ATM")?
Please review WP:NPOV and WP:NOT. (Wikipedia takes a neutral point of view and Wikipedia is not a soapbox.)
What non-neutral viewpoint do you believe I'm attempting to use Wikipedia to advocate? Why would I seek to influence what people call these machines in their day-to-day lives? —David Levy 20:18, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
I don't have the time to respond to all your points right now, but here's one point: Your understanding of textbooks is still off---a writer of a textbook is normally writing for an audience of students, not for an audience of fellow specialists. With the exception of textbooks for graduate students (especially those in science and mathematics), most textbooks for primary, secondary, and undergraduate education strive to use formal written English that is also clear, simple, and easily understood by the general public. A writer of a treatise can safely assume knowledge of a common vocabulary that a writer of a textbook cannot. Thus, if American English textbook writers are regularly using "ATM" or "automated teller machine," rather than "cash machine," that's a sign that they prefer the former as clearer and less ambiguous because they know their audience will read the former as such. --Coolcaesar (talk) 00:05, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Your understanding of textbooks is still off---a writer of a textbook is normally writing for an audience of students, not for an audience of fellow specialists.
You appear to have misunderstood my point, which relied on the context of the message to which I replied in July:

If you search Google Books for "cash machine uk" versus "automated teller machine uk," a lot more of the results for the latter are business, legal, and financial textbooks, while a lot more of the results for the former tend to be consumer-oriented books like novels and travel guidebooks. That is, even in British English, there is an implicit recognition by people who write or edit for a living that "automated teller machine" (or variants) is the common usage when writing in a formal register (i.e., for a textbook) while "cash machine" is the common usage when writing in an informal register. --Coolcaesar (talk) 02:08, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

This is the comparison to which I'm referring. I'm not asserting that most textbooks are written "for an audience of fellow specialists". (To reiterate, the aforementioned Google Books search doesn't actually restrict the results to British English, so the point is largely moot.)
Thus, if American English textbook writers are regularly using "ATM" or "automated teller machine," rather than "cash machine," that's a sign that they prefer the former as clearer and less ambiguous because they know their audience will read the former as such.
Again, we're in agreement that "ATM" is the predominant term in American English. As noted above, I was addressing a claim about British English. —David Levy 13:47, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Now I see your point. But again, the point I was trying to make is that this is an encyclopedia written in formal written English, and as to British English, the common terms when writing in a formal register are also ATM or automated teller machine. We don't write in Simple English because there's another Wikipedia project for that.
Another point: As to the issue of how the primary meaning of "cash machine" is a "get rich quick" scheme---I just thought of an easy way to objectively prove what should already be obvious to anyone who regularly visits a bookstore or public library, or receives junk faxes or spam email. Search on Amazon.com for the phrase "cash machine" (with quotes) after limiting the search category to "Books." Virtually every book returned on the first few pages of results (I stopped skimming after the fifth one) is promoting some kind of "get rich quick" scheme. Indeed, the results appear to be identical for the same search on Amazon.co.uk. As you are probably aware, Amazon.com has a powerful financial incentive to connect customers as efficiently and accurately as possible with the products they are searching for. --Coolcaesar (talk) 02:57, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I have little doubt that the demand for books about money-making opportunities vastly exceeds the demand for books about banking appliances. —David Levy 13:49, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
As any seasoned Amazon shopper is aware (this feature has been in place for over 15 years), Amazon search always tries to balance out results when a word or phrase is hopelessly ambiguous. For example, if you search on the names of places, you will get a mix of travel guides as well as books on the history, culture, and society of those places. Amazon doesn't know if a person searching on the word "knitting" wants knitting supplies or books on how to knit, so they return a hodgepodge of both. "Disney" can mean someone wants a Disney movie, a Disney toy, or Disney apparel. Try those searches and you will see what I mean.
With that in mind, it's remarkable that they're leaving money on the table if, as you assert, "cash machine" is so commonly used to mean "automated teller machine." --Coolcaesar (talk) 06:10, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I've been an Amazon.com customer since 2000, so I'm quite familiar with the site's search functionality.
Books about banking equipment and its use in commerce exist and are sold by Amazon, but they target a tiny niche whose terminology tends to be more technical than that of the general public. Amazon's algorithm doesn't indiscriminately generate a quantitative balance among everything that the user could possibly mean; the likelihood that he/she seeks a particular type of product is assigned considerable weight.
This is not to say that the devices in question aren't commonly referred to as "ATMs" by members of the general public. As discussed above, they certainly are. "ATM" probably is the most common designation, even in British English. Unfortunately, it's unavailable for use as this article's title.
I don't know how you're defining "formal register". In the UK, the BBC uses both "ATM" and "cash machine" in its journalistic reporting, sometimes in tandem. And yes, it uses "ATM" more frequently, but it rarely uses "automated teller machine". —David Levy 12:17, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
By formal register, I'm referring to the register which "cash machine" is not being used in, in the vast majority of book titles where it appears on Amazon. Few people would seriously contend that the following titles are written in a formal register, especially when read out loud: Your Internet Cash Machine: The Insiders' Guide To Making Big Money, Fast! or The 25% Cash Machine: Double Digit Income Investing. (If you don't understand why a 25% return sounds ludicrous on its face, you are out of your league.) These titles, as well as the many other titles which use the phrase "cash machine" on Amazon, are clearly not using "cash machine" as a synonym for ATM in the sense of a machine that merely accesses money already held in one's existing bank account. They are using it to refer to a method to make more money than one already has: a get-rich-quick scheme. Which reinforces my point: the phrase "cash machine" is inherently ambiguous and therefore inappropriate for the title of this article because it has one meaning in American English and another in British English. --Coolcaesar (talk) 06:04, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
You're conflating separate branches of the discussion. I addressed the Amazon search results above. The "formal register" quotation referred to this:

But again, the point I was trying to make is that this is an encyclopedia written in formal written English, and as to British English, the common terms when writing in a formal register are also ATM or automated teller machine.

You appear to have stated that the term "cash machine" is not commonly used in British English written in a formal register. Is that what you meant?
Your ambiguity argument is valid, given that "cash machine" unquestionably has more meanings than "automated teller machine" does. But the former leads directly to this article (not to a disambiguation page), so navigational impact isn't a factor.
Unambiguous article titles are desirable, but so are those reflecting common usage. Reasonable people can disagree on what tips the scales in a given case (including this one). The existence of some ambiguity, such as that associated with "cash machine", doesn't automatically disqualify a potential article title. Likewise, I don't assert that "automated teller machine" is ineligible simply because other terms are used more commonly. (As discussed above, we're in agreement that "ATM" predominates, but that term is unavailable for use as the article's title.) —David Levy 07:31, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

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Authentication

Authentication is provided by the customer entering a personal identification number (PIN).
This is not correct - ATM transactions use two-factor authentication, i.e. something that you have and something that you know. Authentication is provided by both the smart card (chip) and the PIN.
Gentleman wiki (talk) 04:06, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I have updated the sentence to include references to the chip or database. Not all ATM cards have the chip yet, so still rely on the bank's database to validate the PIN. Nutster (talk) 04:49, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

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Hole in the wall as British term for ATM

Is hole in the wall a British term for an ATM? According to Niall Ferguson here - http://www.cc.com/video-clips/k1og3a/the-colbert-report-niall-ferguson - it is. Should that be added to the lede? Michipedian (talk) 04:51, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

I believe this term is also used in "Fitter, Happier" by Radiohead. Michipedian (talk) 11:37, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

ABM in Canada

In my own experience, this term is so infrequently used in Canadian lingo that whenever I encounter it in some overly glossy bank brochure (if even there), I pull up, set myself down on my mental Chesterfield (sofa/couch, but always "sofa cushion"), and consult my mental file on Canada's colonial roots—except to my surprise it's not in there, it's just weird and different for no reason. Excluding the aforementioned glossy brochures, in my corner of Canada, it's "instant teller", "bank machine" or ATM 99:1 over ABM. — MaxEnt 16:00, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Instant Teller is a trademark of CIBC referring to their ATMs. In my part of Canada (GTA), ABM is common enough (about 1/3 time vs. ATM). That might explain the glossy bank brochures, as they tend to be written in Toronto. Nutster (talk) 21:21, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
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