Talk:Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant/Archive 1

Untitled

Talk page archive to 30 April 2010 + conclusion of GA review.

From the Latin original

6 Edidit et in Martio campo expugnationem direptionemque oppidi ad imaginem bellicam et deditionem Britanniae p44 regum praeseditque paludatus. Quin et emissurus Fucinum lacum naumachiam ante commisit. Sed cum proclamantibus naumachiariis: "Have imperator, morituri te salutant!" respondisset: "Aut non,"30 neque post hanc vocem quasi venia data quisquam dimicare vellet, diu cunctatus an omnes igni ferroque absumeret, tandem e sede sua prosiluit ac per ambitum lacus non sine foeda vacillatione31 discurrens partim minando partim adhortando ad pugnam compulit. Hoc spectaculo classis Sicula et Rhodia concurrerunt, duodenarum triremium singulae, exciente32 bucina Tritone argenteo, qui e medio lacu per machinam emerserat.[1] --Stlemur 12:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

According to Naumachia it wasn't actually used by gladiators. CronoDAS 04:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyone up for providing a pronunciation guide? 70.69.161.130 23:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Not sure how to write that in any easy to read way so I'm sorry. Not sure if this is right, but from what I know of Latin, "Ave" is pronounce "away", but the "a" is pronounced like in "alter". I'm not sure, but if Caesar is pronounced like regular Latin words it would be "kaiser" (like the bread). Morituri would be pronounced like "morgue" only instead of "gue" it would be "i" like in "is". Then "turi" in the word "morituri" is like the name "Yuri". "te" is like the word "the" only without the "h". For "salutant," think of the the song "For Those About to Rock (We Salute You)" by ACDC and the way the pronounce "salute". Stick an "n" before the last "t" and you have "salutant". , but I hoped this helped some. Deflagro ^C/_T 19:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Meaning?

I am curious, is the spirit of the phrase morituri te salutant "Those who are about to die (that would be us), salute you)", or is it "we, while we are about to die, would like to take the opportunity to salute you."? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.13.203.182 (talk) 15:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's the first one, because "morituri" is the subject of the sentence. - furrykef (Talk at me) 03:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, it seems I was mistaken; participial phrases can indeed be used that way in the nominative case. But I still think it's the first, because "Morituri, te salutant" means "About to die, they salute you", which doesn't seem to make sense; it should be "salutamus" in that case so that the speaker would be included. But in "Morituri te salutant", with "morituri" as the subject rather than as a participial phrase, it makes sense. It also seems to make more sense this way because not everybody who participates in combat is going to die, only the losers, whereas your second interpretation would seem to suggest that the speaker believes all will die. - furrykef (Talk at me) 06:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

2007-11-6 Automated pywikipediabot message

{{transwikied to Wiktionary}} --CopyToWiktionaryBot 06:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Now struck out, appears old/redundant, bot hasn't edited since 2008. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 10:33, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I've found the following info. Can we get good quality IPA for this phrase?

Ave: Classical Latin IPA: [ˈaweː]. Church Latin ideally IPA: [ˈave], English tends to be /ˈɑːveɪ/.

• Cited from - Ave

Caesar (Latin: 'kaɪsɑr ["kae-sahr"], common English:siːzɚ ["see-zr"])

• Cited from - [2]

Full phrase: AH-weh KI-sahr MAW-rih-TOO-ree tay sah-LOO-tahnt

• Cited from - [3]

The phrase could have up to 4 different ways of representing pronunciation (see Ave for similar):

• Classical Latin IPA, church Latin IPA, common English IPA, common English alphabet transliteration.

Note: Wikipedia:IPA for Latin.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 11:34, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Here's the phrase with the optional macrons: [Avē Cæsar (Imperātor), moritūri tē salūtant] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help); Latin pronunciation: [ˈaweː ˈkaɪsar (ɪmpɛˈraːtɔr) mɔrɪˈtuːrɪ teː saˈluːtant]; Latin pronunciation: [ˈavɛ ˈtʃɛsar (impɛˈrator) moriˈturi tɛ saˈlutant]. I don't know that there's a standard English pronunciation of this phrase—when it's even left untranslated—it's usually just an approximation of a Latin pronunciation. In any case, there shouldn't be a pronunciation respelling, because we don't normally use those for foreign-language terms. Also, this page should probably be at Morituri te salutant, no? — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 10:37, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the pronunciation help. And, possibly. It's a "worth discussion"? FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 13:20, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Peer review comments

I'm going to add additional observations here "outside" the GA review.

• The event was on Lake Fucinus, which was not even in Rome. The event is from the era of Claudius, well before before the Colosseum was built. Somehow this deserves prominent mention, given "common view" of the term?--Work permit (talk) 05:53, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
• An example of the statement in modern times is Jerome Carcopino's Daily life in Ancient Rome (1940, p239-240)

The gladiators..marched round the arena in miltary array..They walked nonchalantly, their hands swinging free, followed by valets carrying their arms; and when they arrived opposite the imperial pul-viniar they turned towards the emperor, their right hands extended in a sign of homage, and addressed to him the justifiably melochanoly salutation: "Hail Emperor, those who are about to dies salute thee. Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant!

--Work permit (talk) 06:18, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

• A real popular example is in Ridley Scott's film Gladiator (2000). I'll look for a real source.--Work permit (talk) 06:23, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Timing

I'm thinking it may be worth starting the "sources" by stating:

The source material comes from the works of three Roman historians born subsequent to the events of 52 AD. Suetonius (ca. 69 - 75 to after 130, probably writing around AD 121), and Cassius Dio (around 155 - 164 to after 229, probably writing 200 - 222) both wrote about the event and quoted the phrase. Tacitus (c.56 - 117, writing from around 98 - 117) mentions the event but does not quote the phrase.

The first known record of the phrase is in the writings of Suetonius:

[...]

although it might disrupt the flow somewhat. Posting here because I may consider it at leisure. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 18:44, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I think that is better than the asides I added as it establishes their authority (or lack of it) from the beginning, although the Tacitus writing dates are a little strict (98-117 would be better for his whole career, 100-110 for the Histories). It might also be worth noting that Cassius Dio may have used either or both the other writers as sources. Yomangani^talk 19:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Can we source any of these dates? (Also noting someone may write earlier, and publish later). And can you find an authoritative cite for matters related to the codex you've linked? FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 03:27, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure the introduction to any edition of the appropriate works will give citable dates. I don't have any to hand right now unfortunately, but I can add the refs later if nobody gets to it. I rewrote the part mentioning the codex as, on consideration, it was too specific - the new stuff is mostly referenced to the Pike edition that you'd already used. Yomangani^talk 13:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Spelling, pronunciation, etc.

I moved this into a footnote as I didn't really consider it of enough importance to warrant its own section. The spelling could equally optionally use "v" in place of "u" and the pronunciation is as much guesswork as any Latin pronunciation. Nobody is going to need to speak to any 1st-century Romans on the subject (and even if they did, we can be pretty sure that Ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation wouldn't be appropriate). Yomangani^talk 22:58, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree if this were an article on the event. But it's an article on a Latin phrase. The historical background is what's secondary, if anything, not material directly related to the phrase itself. In an article on a phrase, the pronunciation isn't secondary. Enough people use Latin academically (or otherwise) or may find this useful. Most articles with unusual topics have IPA in the intro and the reason for a section is this has multiple pronunciation notes. It's salient to this article. Articles on a term of art or scientific terminology often start with a short etymology, or background on the term or phrase. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 03:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

The reason this phrase has an article is because of the mistaken notion that it was what gladiators usually said before their fights. It's become popular because of a misunderstanding of the historical background. This makes it unlike most of the items in Category:Latin mottos and Category:Latin words and phrases, which (while they may have had a specific historical origin) are used without attachment to any particular piece of history. At any rate, most of the items in those categories lack pronunciation guides, which I think is just fine. So I'd be happy with removing the pronunciation stuff entirely; but the Ecclesiastical pronunciation absolutely has to go, it's completely inapplicable to 1st century Latin. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:54, 18 March 2010 (UTC)