Talk:Béziers

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The Latin quote regarding the massacre in the Albigensian Crusade is now correct Latin, but differs from the quotation on the page about the Albigensian Crusade. Which is correct? Is either?

I have removed the text - see the debate on the Albigensian Crusade. The original text read:

The commander of the crusade was the Papal Legate Arnaud-Amaury (or Arnald Amalaricus, Abbot of Citeaux). When asked by a Crusader how to tell Catholics from Cathars once they had taken the city, the abbot supposedly replied, "Kill them all, God will know His own" - "Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet". (This phrase can only be found in one source, Caesarius of Heisterbach along with a story of some Cathars who desecrated a copy of the Old Testament and threw it from the town's walls.)

Firstly, the Legate was not leader of the Crusade, but its spiritual director: the leadership appears to have been collegiate at the time, but was taken in hand by de Montfort after the massacre. Moreover, as Abbot of Citeaux Amaury was Head of the Cistercian Order, and therefore influential in the military Orders as well, which is why he was important - the attribution is therefore incorrect. Secondly, the Sisley and Sisley edition of Vaux de Cernay quotes correspondance between Amaury and the Vatican demonstrating the massacre was the result of a command breakdown. The leadership were in conference working on another attempt to negociate the removal of the town's catholics when the camp followers, angered by the mutilation of one of their number, unexpectedly broke into the town: there was consequently no possibility Amaury could have replied as quoted, because he was in a meeting actively planning the exact opposite. The main crusading force then attempted to stop the rabble looting, which resulted in the camp-followers setting fire to the town, causing huge loss of life. Thirdly, Heisterbach was writing forty years after the event, was not supported by any primary source, and would fail our test of NPOV.

On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence in the same source there was an intention to impose fear in the population, which none the less does not override the certain first attempt to rescue the Catholics and the reported planning of a second attempt.

If the above Latin quote is the correct one, why have you let stand "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius," on all the other Wiki pages? (Albigensian Crusade, Arnaud Amalric, Catharism, etc.) I'm not going to change it because I don't have access to the original text, but seems like someone ought to do that. If the "Caedite eos" quote is something that crept into another Latin text and became the popular quote, it would be good to source that.MaterTerribilis (talk) 22:35, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I changed the current phrase "a story of some Cathars who desecrated a copy of the Old Testament" in "a story of all the heretics who desecrated a copy of the Gospels" because this is the story we have in Caesarius of Heisterbach's book.--79.56.178.36 (talk) 10:11, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I'm from Béziers and there is something missing on the Albigensian Crusade, StNazaire Cathedral was burned to the ground; but the Church named "Eglise de la Madeleine" wich is not far from StNazaire, was burned with people locked inside by the northern crusaders, very much like the SS did at Oradour sur Glane centuries later. The church was re-built later. I think it should be added to illustrate the barbarism and violence of the northerners against the Cathars and Catholic Biterrois (which also illustrate the well known "Béziers Spirit" where catholics decided to fight along their neighbours when they could have saved their own lives). Renaud —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.36.241.187 (talk) 10:37, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Request for photographs of Eglise de la Madeleine

Greetings, I am requesting photographs of the Eglise de la Madeleine church exterior that are in a landscape format (that is to say, wider than longer) and would be interested in viewing photographs taken from inside of the Eglise de la Madeleine.Bee Cliff River Slob (talk) 21:32, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Caesarius of Heisterbach citation and exaggerations

In the main article someone quoted Caesarius writing "Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet".
I really don't know how someone could write this as all we know that Caesarius wrote: "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."[1]
Caesarius sentence in latin is "coedite eos" meaning "kill them". The add of the "all" is an arbitrary insertion. But this is not my personal opinion. I could quote Medieval historian Malcolm Barber: "The notorious phrase, 'kill them all, God will know his own'... is usually (although not invariably) discounted by serious historians. However, the quotation is frequently used by those wishing to promote the idea of northern brutality, intent upon crushing southern civilisation... It is noticeable that most commentators insert "all" for the sake of emphasis and omit fertur dixisse by which Caesarius makes clear that this is hearsay."(M. Barber, "The Cathars: Dualist Heretics in Languedoc in the High Middle Ages", p. 211/12 note 20). .

Professor of History Alan Friedlander [2]writes:
"Despite dramatic accounts, the extent of this massacre should not be exaggerated. Bézier's economic growth and the prosperity of its leading families continued unafflected, and the 13th century witnessed the period of greatest brilliance for the city" (A. Friedlander in the entry "Bèziers" in "Medieval France: an encyclopedia" by William W. Kibler[3]).--Domics (talk) 10:28, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Copy from Troubadour page

EricLaporte (talk) 09:51, 22 January 2024 (UTC)