Talk:Bar Giora

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Excised material

User:Zero0000 and User:Ynhockey, I still think there might be a solution for inclusion of this important material by simply gleaning the citations cited by Heally Gross in her book, Adamah Ahuvah. In this way, we can avoid using her book (per WP:RS), and yet not lose out on this vital information.Davidbena (talk) 14:05, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

As it turns out, Heally Gross was citing from the "Herut newspaper", in the following issues: 20 October 1950 and 3 December 1951. For those who might not know it, Herut was the daily newspaper of the Herut movement, a party founded on 15 May 1948, the day after the establishment of the State of Israel. It was a Hebrew publication which you can see here.Davidbena (talk) 14:17, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

If correctly cited, Gross says it was founded by immigrants from Yemen. However, the article in the Hebrew wiki says it was founded by immigrants from Morocco. Who is correct? This is the sort of reason why reliable sources are important. Zero^talk 14:23, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Incidentally I have a good source for the founding date, and also for the alternative name Eitanim. Not for the other stuff though. Zero^talk 14:26, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

The Hebrew article only mentions the moshav's current residents, namely Moroccans, without actually researching its early history. You can see just how well Heally Gross had delved into the sources. I think that we can use your source, as well as the Herut newspaper source. Please add what you are able to come-up with.Davidbena (talk) 14:29, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

You have me at a Hebrew disadvantage, but I'm pretty sure that the sentence

.המקום נוסד ב- 18 באוקטובר 1950 על ידי עולים מ מרוקו says that it was founded on 18 Oct 1950 by immigrants from Morocco. (That "1950" keeps jumping around, check the word order at he.wiki if need be.) Now, we can't cite Gross citing Herut, that is not how RS works. However you can find the original newspaper here. If that link doesn't work go to http://web.nli.org.il/sites/JPress/Hebrew/Pages/default.aspx and look for it; it is there. Another newspaper article that might have interesting stuff is here: [1]. Zero^talk 14:43, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

@Davidbena: Ok, I see you found Herut yourself. But did you carefully check that it says Yemenites? Please do. Zero^talk 14:44, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Give me a few minutes and I'll recheck the original source for the word "Yemenites."Davidbena (talk) 14:47, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Please check the originals for all of the information that you cited to them. It is strictly forbidden to just copy a citation from an intermediate source that fails RS. Zero^talk 14:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

And please find the page numbers. Toda. Zero^talk 14:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm currently searching for this information. If I cannot find anything, I'll self-revert until I can find what is said explicitly.Davidbena (talk) 14:57, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Zero0000, I checked both of your online sites, but neither one of them have the scanned back-up issues for the Herut newspaper, dated October 1950 and December 1951. What I do know, however, is that the Hebrew University library in Jerusalem carries microfilms of this newspaper, so we'll just have to wait until I can check these microfilms in their respective dates (for the information) when I'm able to visit there. I will, meanwhile, self-revert.Davidbena (talk) 15:09, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

No, it is there. Look at this for example. I didn't find the necessary articles because my reading skills are too weak. Also the search misses many things due to poor scans. Zero^talk 15:22, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

The scanned newspaper that you show is from June 1950, but not from 20 October 1950. If you can find the latter date, give me the link and I'll read through it.Davidbena (talk) 15:32, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

@Davidbena: the URLs at that site are very tricky. Please follow this link first. Along the top you will see a menu of years; select 1950. Then select October from the month menu on the right, and scroll down to the 20th. The whole newspaper will appear and there is a zoom button. Remember that at this time one of the earlier names of Bar Giora might have still been in use. Zero^talk 02:55, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

This is definitely a better link than the others and it takes me directly to the date that we were looking for. I'm assessing the information in the newspaper (20 October 1950) now.Davidbena (talk) 03:38, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

We're in luck! I found the section in the newspaper Herut that speaks about the Moshav. It's on page 8 of the newspaper, with the Hebrew caption: מושב שלישי של תנועת החרות הוקם בפרוזדור ירושלים = [A Third Moshav of the Herut Movement is Established in the Jerusalem Corridor]. The article goes on to say explicitly: "The settlers are Yemen Diaspora immigrants who have recently made aliyah" [= המתיישבים הם עולים שמקרוב באו יוצאי גלות תימן]. The article says of the Moshav that it was established on 18 October 1950, and that it was called "Allar" (the old name of the Moshav), but which was in proximity to the former settlement outpost Mevo'ot Betar.Davidbena (talk) 04:25, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Since I'm soon getting off of work, I'll check the other newspaper reference later on today. Thanks, Zero0000!! Your worth is inestimable!Davidbena (talk) 04:31, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

That's great. I don't think I knew that the Herut movement supported Yemenites (but I forget most of what I learn these days). It could be interesting to ask on the talk page of the Hebrew wiki why it says Moroccans. It would be lovely if you could essentially ignore Gross and summarise what is in the 1950 and 1951 articles yourself. Also, please study this 1961 article, as it might have useful information about what happened in 1954 as well as information independent of the Herut movement. Given that there was a lot of antipathy between the Herut movement and Mapai, it's possible that there is an interesting story about the founding. Incidentally, the list of settlements in the 1952 government yearbook calls it "Bar Giyora (Eitanim)", so that's a lower limit on when the current name was adopted. It also has the founding date and the description "rural settlement", but unlike most localities no population is stated. Zero^talk 05:03, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Allar was the name of the Arab village less than 1km away that was depopulated in 1948. It was very common for new Jewish settlements to adopt the local Arabic name first, though most changed later. Zero^talk 05:10, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I think that that would be the proper course of action to take - to summarise what is stated explicitly in these two sections from the Herut newspaper.Davidbena (talk) 05:16, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I found the other reference, on page 2 of the Herut newspaper (3 December 1951). There, the title of the section reads: In the National Settlement: What Is Happening in the Work Villages? [Heb. בהתיישבות הלאומית: מה מתרחש בכפרי עבודה?]. The article speaks about the depressed atmosphere among the new immigrants in Ramat-Shimon, which it calls in parentheses "the Allar Camp". It says that it is situated 3-kilometers from Mevo'ot Betar. It names a certain Yosef Weitz of the Jewish National Fund who was the person who established these work villages. It goes on to talk about the purpose of establishing these work villages. It says that the core of these new immigrants were brought to "Ramat-Shimon" from the absorption camp in Rosh HaAyin, a well-known ma'abarah where the Yemenites Jews had come. It goes on to speak about the difficult road condition and access to the site, which it says is 38-kilometers from Hartuv, and that it took the residents one full day just to travel from "Ramat-Shimon" (today, Bar-Giora) to Jerusalem or to Tel-Aviv.Davidbena (talk) 15:35, 7 August 2018 (UTC)