Talk:Basis Nord/Archive 1

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Wet triangle

I've removed "in the north sea, two legs of which are formed by German coastline." as it didn't make sense, or really describe the geography of Germany's North Sea access. If anyone knows what point was supposed to be made please re add. WereSpielChequers 13:14, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Facts

According to Philbin:

  • No german warship or U-boat were ever based at this base, only unarmed merchant vessels were temporalily anchored at this bay
  • Proposed base place had no piers, warehouses, roads, coastal defences or anything needed for real naval base.

It was only plan, which was never developed into real naval base. Article in it's current state describes this undeveloped proposal as fully operational naval base and needs to be rewritten. DonaldDuck (talk) 03:28, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Per Naval-History.Net.http://www.royalnavy-history.net/xDKWW2-3912-09DEC01.htm. -

German steamers CORDILLERA (12,055grt) had departed Livinston, Guatemala, on 25 August and arrived at Murmansk on 10 September while PHOENICIA (4124grt) had left Curacao on the same day in August and reached Murmansk in mid-September. There, they were assigned respectively as accommodation and replenishment ships for German submarines to operate against British lumber and ore shipping out of Murmansk and Narvik. Both steamers departed Murmansk on 2 December 1939 for Zapadnaya Litsa Bay, which was to be known as Basis Nord, and fishing vessel SACHSENWALD (650grt) arrived there with supplies a day earlier. Her job was to serve as a dispatch vessel. At the end of November, U.36 and U.38 departed Germany for Basis Nord (That claims in fact dobtfull - see U-36 - Das Boot lief am 2. Dezember 1939 um 0.10 Uhr von Kiel aus. Es wurde am 4. Dezember 1939 versenkt. U-38 - Das Boot lief am 14. November 1939 um 12.30 Uhr von Wilhelmshaven aus, und lief am 16. Dezember 1939 um 15.00 Uhr wieder dort ein.Jo0doe (talk) 12:42, 9 January 2010 (UTC)) but were reassigned for operations against British shipping off northern Norway. The base itself was never used, CORDILLERA almost immediately returned to Murmansk, and then completed her voyage home reaching Hamburg on 8 February

While we've a "secret German Naval Base at Narvik" - 6,388 gross registered ton Aachen, the 5,398 grt Altona, the 4,902 grt Bockenheim, the 5,386 grt Hein Hoyer, the 4,879 grt Martha Henrich Fisser, the 8,096 grt Neuenfels, the 5,806 grt Odin , the 7,849 grt Lippe, the 4,339 grt Frielinghaus and the 5,881 grt Planet. With NON INTERNED crews!- As compared to 650 grt SACHSENWALD:)) So before adding an info about German merchant vessels - we need to find thir names first! And indeed should be noted in article Nazi-Soviet naval "friendship" -

  • December 1939
  • Russian submarine SC.322 damaged German steamer HELGA BOGE (2181grt) with gunfire, four miles north of Revalstein.
  • Russian submarine SC.322 damaged German steamer GILLHAUSEN (4339grt) with gunfire south of Hanko. Jo0doe (talk) 11:03, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion for lead

Lead can be given as

Basis Nord- German code name for anchorage for German commercial vessels threatened by dominated in Northern Sea British Royal Navy Fleet at the belonged to Soviet Union Zapadnaya Litsa bay from end of October 1939 till spring 1940. At end of October 1939 Germans requested and received a permission from Molotov to use Zapadnaya Litsa to refuel a German U-boat. In fact that option was never used, and January 7 1940 German diplomat in Moscow Schulenburg informed Molotov – that Germans has no longer needs in that permission. In March 5 1940 Molotov informed Schulenburg that German vessels cannot freely used Zapadnaya Litsa until end of Soviet-Finland war. April 9 1940 Schulenburg approached Molotov with request for further usage of it place for German vessels – but Molotov withdraw all promises already given with regard to the "North Base". After Norway fell under German control in spring 1940 the anchorage was no longer needed.

Source used (in addition to already mentioned above)

  • Schwendemann H. Die wirtschaftliche Zusammenarbeit zwischen dem Deutschen Reich und der Sowjetunion von 1938 bis 1941. Berlin, 1993
  • Документы внешней политики 1940-22 июня 1941 москва

«Международные отношения» 1995 ISBN 5-7133-0753-0 (Т. 1) English language correction requested with thanks Jo0doe (talk) 15:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Phoenicia

Economic Agreement of February 11, 1940, Between the German Reich and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

9. Ships. To be delivered "promptly": one tanker of about 12,000 tons; M/S Memel; M/S Phoenicia; S/S Nurnberg. Documents On German Foreign Policy 1918-1945 1963

Other german vessels at Murmansk

[2] - and In November HMS Glasgow was operating off the coast of Norway, accompanied by two destroyers in the hope that the German passenger ship Bremen would pass there from Murmansk. [3]Jo0doe (talk) 10:17, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Some strange claims in article

  • The only remaining state capable of supplying Germany with the requisite raw materials was the Soviet Union

As far as well known -

  • "A. Sweden: Iron ore deliveries to Germany for 1940 as specified by German-

Swedish agreement : 10,000,000 tons.

  • B. Norway: Deliveries to be made to Germany in 1940 :

Iron- ore: 1,200,000 tons Norway Deliveries since the beginning of the war : September 80,000 tons

October 27,000 tons

November 21,000 tons

December 73,000 tons

January 40,000 tons

Copper (metal content) : 7,200 tons No limit on molybdenum concentrates. Output not more than : 750 tons Deliveries to Germany in 1938 : 415 tons Titanium ore: 40,000 tons

Sulphur: 5,500 tons (taking into consideration the sulphur content of the cupriferous pyrites, the total sulphur deliveries are about 40,000 tons). Iron alloys:

Ferrochrome : No limit on deliveries, ca. 6,000 tons

Ferro-silicon : ca. 13,000 tons

Sillcomanganese : ca. 5,OOO tons CHROMIUM ORES from Greece a maximum of ...... 12, 000 tons per year

from Yugoslavia a maximum of ... 12, 000 " " " from Bulgaria approximately ..... 8, 000 " " " the 35,000 tons of chromium ore which the Nor- wegian ferro-chrome works Bjolvefossen purchased in Turkey for the purpose of sending on the ferro-chrome obtained there from to Germany.

September 1939 - Rumanian Government was willing to assume a guarantee that Germany would be able to buy 130,000 tons of petroleum a month from Rumania at reasonable terms

1. Grain deliveries. 1,000,000 tons of corn, 400,000 tons of wheat, 200,000 tons of barley. Furthermore, the delivery of 200,000 hogs and 80,000 cattle is provided for, among other things. etc.etc Jo0doe (talk) 13:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Sources misused

[4] [5] I a same way as was done here German_cruiser_Lützow_(Hipper_class)#Source_misused In result a strange claims apppeared in the article

  • when the Germans arrived, Murmansk had not yet been developed and Gulag forced labor was still present constructing Soviet facilitiesJo0doe (talk) 15:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

One more source

[6]

  • Following an inspection of facilities at Murmansk, Teriberka and other ports with access to Arctic Ocean, Von Baumbach informed Berlin that it was his opinion that none of ports was suitible for that the German Navy had in mind.
  • Germans were never able to establish what they had begun calling Basis Nord

p.128Jo0doe (talk) 16:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Rees

Laurence Rees, World War II Behind Closed Doors: Stalin, the Nazis and the West (2009) P.66-69:

"...this was, for the Soviets, one of the greatest secrets of the war... during the September 1939 meeting with Stalin and Molotov. The German Foreign Minister had asked if the Soviets could provide a base in Murmansk for the repair of U-boats and, in principle, this had been agreed. But from that moment the Soviet authorities were worried that the British - or anyone else - might discover that they were providing military assistance to the Nazis. ...the Soviets offered the nearby bay of Sapadnaja Liza [ Zapadnaya Litsa ]instead... it was henceforth only to be known as 'Basis Nord' (Base North). The German supply ship Sachsenwald entered Base North on 1 December 1939, the first of several vessels to be stationed there. ... In mid-April 1940 the Germans were asked to move their base further along the coast to the even more remote Jokanga Bay [mouth of Iokanga River ]. Molotov told the German naval attaché in Moscow that the move was necessary because of Soviet fears that Allied aircraft... might identify the German ships. ...the German liaison officer, Auerbach, visited the new Base North for the first time on 20 May... Life was grim for the German sailors at Base North. In April 1940 Dr Kampf, doctor on the German supply ship Phoenicia, complained in his diary... The story of Base Nord... is important because its existence shows the schizophrenic attitude of the Soviets towards assisting the Germans. On the one hand, the Soviets undoubtedly provided the Germans with a military supply base; but on the other, ideologically the Nazis remained a possible enemy. So in effect they were allies, and yet they were potential belligerents."

Phew, that's it. We could add it to the footnote in the article. My fingers are tired so if you want more, please buy the book ;-) It is pretty thorough - Roosevelt and Churchill don't come out looking good at all. Oh and here http://www.pbs.org/behindcloseddoors/about/index.html is the DVD series

PS Rees uses very good footnotes, which show he has sourced all this from Bundesarchiv Freiburg, Germany. -Chumchum7 (talk) 23:16, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Sachsenwald

The 639 ton Sachsenwald was not a supply ship, but a fish trawler converted by the Kriegsmarine into a weather ship. --Cosal (talk) 21:26, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

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