Talk:Battle of Sırpsındığı

This article was nominated for deletion on 1 November 2020. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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Historical sources[edit]

The historical sources about this battle are ambigious. It has already been discussed in the talk page of Battle of Maritsa. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 20:57, 30 December 2011 (UTC

Name[edit]

"First Battle Of Maritsa" is not used in historiography.--Zoupan 22:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No sources[edit]

There is no single source for this battle in Serbian historiography, and more importantly, in the well-preserved archives of the city of Dubrovnik. Vukasin became a co-ruler and king in 1365. --N Jordan (talk) 02:51, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bosnia, Hungary, Serbia[edit]

In 1363, the war broked between Tvrtko I of Bosnia and Louis I of Hungary. Louis was with his army in Bosnia. In 1364, Tvrtko, his mother, and his brother were granted citizenship of the Republic of Venice. This honour guaranteed them sanctuary in Venice. So, how is it possible for two of them to go to war against the Ottomans at the same time? Especially if we know that Louis stated that his intention was to eradicate the Bosnian heretics. His invasion was supported by the Roman Catholic Church.

So, we have Louis I (Roman Catholic), Tvrtko I (protector of the heretic Bosnian Church), and Vukasin (schismatic, Eastern Orthodox). How is it possible that 3 of them march together, as roman catholic crusaders?

Also, Louis I was a king of Hungary, and Vukasin was at that time just a Serbian noble. Yet, according to this article, Vukasin was the leader of this crusade?--N Jordan (talk) 05:41, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion[edit]

This article is full of conflicting information, and I'm not sure is it possible to improve it. It is based on some Turkish sources that date the Battle of Maritsa in 1364. The problem is that all other sources date that battle to 1371. There is an article about the Battle of Maritsa (1371). The information presented in this article is in conflict with other articles. Some statements simply don't make any sense: E.g. Eastern Orthodox and Bosnian heretics as participants of a crusade, Serbian noble Vukasin as a leader instead of Hungarian king, etc. The timeline also doesn't make sense. Louis I of Hungary and Tvrtko I of Bosnia are fighting in Bosnia (the war against the heretics in Bosnia, sanctioned by Roman Catholic Church), and next year they are over 1000 km from Bosnia, fighting the Ottomans. The leader of their army is Serbian lord Vukasin who became a co-ruler od the Serbian emperor next year.--N Jordan (talk) 06:13, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Warning! Its a sided article.[edit]

I fix it like 2 times with one british source but bigoted and fanatic patrols of wikipedia still make old and false version of article "According to Ottoman, no Hungarian or Serbian" no need to be jerk guys they wouldnt admit their huge lose deffinetly but i think their grandsons on the work! Tarik289 (talk) 14:02, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And you can write your "hungarian or serbian" thing in discussion part of this article. It was false and absurd Tarik289 (talk) 14:18, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article on Britannica that you use as a reference (https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-the-Maritsa-River) points to the battle in 1371! Military Wiki is no reference at all. There is nothing wrong in warning that this battle was not recorded in any European sources of that time. Why would anybody hide that battle? Not just Hungarians and Serbs, but the Republic of Ragusa, pope, etc. There is plenty of information about the battle of 1371. Personally, I think this battle is a mix-up in Turkish historiography, but it is up to Turkish historians to deal with that. --N Jordan (talk) 17:56, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This battle simply doesn't fit what was happening in the Balkans at that time. E.g. Vukashin was not a king or co-ruler of Serbia until 1365. His brother was not yet a ruler of an area close to the Ottomans. King Louis discussed a crusade against the Ottomans with other European rulers in Poland in September 1364. In February 1365, he assembled his army to attack Walachia. Bosnia was attacked by Louis I in 1363. The idea of Louis I being subordinated in some war to a Serbian lord is absurd. The idea of the pope (Roman Catholic) sending crusaders under command of a schismatic (Greek Orthodox) Serbian lord is also absurd. In June 1371, Vukashin had fully assembled army in Skadar when decided to move against the Ottomans. The battle was in September. What do you think how much time is necessary to assemble an army of 60,000? Louis I was, in February 1364, in Brno, but in September 1364 in Poland. It was impossible to assemble the army, march to Maritsa and arrive to Poland in less than 8 months. --N Jordan (talk) 20:10, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Urban V worked on crusade against the Ottomans in 1363 with kings John II of France and Peter I of Cyprus. Cardinal Hélie de Talleyrand-Périgord was appointed apostolic legate for the crusade. He died in January 1364, and King John II died in April 1364. They were not able to assemble the army. There was another crusade against the Ottomans in 1366. During that crusade, Amadeus of Savoy captured Gallipoli. However, he was forced to draw. Hungarian invasion of Bosnia in 1363 was also a crusade sanctioned by pope.N Jordan (talk) 21:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Check Savoyard crusade of 1366, there is no article about it. Is it any record of that in Turkish historiography? N Jordan (talk) 21:39, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Military Wiki is no reference at all." Wikipedia is already joke and trash. No need to be discuss with sided patrols Tarik289 (talk) 00:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And you didn't even read main source, L O L. Tarik289 (talk) 00:30, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And let me guess. You are from serbia, right? Please don't write "your facts". Yes there is a confused about First Battle of Maritsa but it happened. Look to all sources you can get(Excluding serbian or hungarian :D) Tarik289 (talk) 00:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not from Serbia, but you're definitely from Turkey :) There is no need to take this personal. We're talking about historic sources from that time, not about the books published in the 19th or 20th century, based on sources from that time. There is no record of this battle in any European sources of that time.

You added a reference to https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-the-Maritsa-River and called it "First Battle of the Maritsa River | Balkans [1364]" – but the article is clearly about the Battle of Maritsa in 1371.

You added Stanford J. Shaw as a reference, but he's talking about the single battle of Maritsa in 1364 – not about the two separate battles. I would agree with him that there was only a single battle, but the year is wrong. That part of his book is full of factual errors, e.g. he claims that Mircea the Great and Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg (he called him George Castriotis) participated in the battle of Kosovo (1389). Skenderbeg was born after the battle, and his father Gjon became an Ottoman vassal in 1386, after the battle of Plocnik. N Jordan (talk) 04:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am from Crimea :) And Stanford J. Shaw talked about deffinetly and clearly "First Battle of Maritsa". Finally, i didn't do "First Battle of Maritsa/Britannica" thing. You can look its mention with name of Sırp Sındığı. And you can write this "according to Ottoman source" in discussion part. Not in main part. So i will delete again main part of article. Tarik289 (talk) 14:31, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On page 18 (https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=E9-YfgVZDBkC&pg=PT23&lpg=PT23&dq=battle+of+sirp+sindigi&source=bl&ots=S7ehwwvCr7&sig=ACfU3U0ow5glwVHIC4-KtpxVjQXWbI6jyg&hl=tr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip_7PY07nsAhVl8OAKHT14AyY4KBDoATAHegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=battle%20of%20sirp%20sindigi&f=false), Shaw talks about a battle known in Turkish history as "Sırp Sındığı." He never calls that battle "First Battle of Maritsa," and this is the only battle of Maritsa that he mentioned. In his book, there is nothing about the battle of 1371.

If you check contemporary historians, Stavrianos is probably the only one who wrote about two battles. All sources from that time talk about the single battle, but the date is different. According to the Ottoman sources, it occurred in 1364. According to European sources, it occurred on September 26, 1371. --N Jordan (talk) 17:21, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not vandalism, not unnecessary[edit]

@Tarik289: First of all: Whatever you think about the attribution according to Ottoman sources, it is not vandalism. In Wikipedia, the term "vandalism" has a very specific meaning, which you can read about at WP:VANDALISM. The term is reserved for edits that deliberately attempt to damage Wikipedia.

Secondly, please avoid using all-caps in your argumentation. That is considered to be SHOUTING, see WP:SHOUT.

Now to the content of your edit: As it has been explained to you, there is no unequivocal certainty that the battle in 1364 actually took place, or it may be a case of mixing it up with the battle in 1371. This is also thoroughly commented on in the article itself in the section "Confusion and disambiguation". In such cases it is necessary to tell the reader who is the source of the information, by giving in-text attribution, which you can read more about at WP:INTEXT. If we remove the attribution, as you wish, we are actually taking sides and supporting one specific point-of-view. Wikipedia shall, however, always try to present a neutral p-o-v, se WP:NPOV.

Finally, some words about how Wikipedia works: Wikipedia is a community project, where editors are supposed to co-operate in order to improve the encyclopedic value. If we disagree, we can use the article talk page (like this page) to discuss the matter, hopefully ending with a consensus, see WP:CONSENSUS. If you, on the other hand, repeatedly revert the article to your preferred version, it is called edit war, see WP:EDITWAR. Editors editwarring instead of seeking consensus usually end up being blocked from editing.

I suggest that you self revert your last removal of the attribution "according to Ottoman sources" and tries to gain consensus for your view here in the talk page. --T*U (talk) 19:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okey then you can change but its still write in last part of article so. Stop being incomprehensible. Tarik289 (talk) 21:11, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "being incomprehensible", but I take it that you accept that I revert your last edit. --T*U (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Shouldn't the name be Battle of Sırpsındığı? ~Styyx ^{Talk? ^-^} 10:45, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to write, First Battle of Maritsa, for 5 times i think. But patrols wanted Papal sources. %100 non sided wikipedia 👌 Tarik289 (talk) 11:29, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]