Talk:Battle of Zvornik (1464)

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Sources[edit]

Hi Keremmaarda, could you provide and show the text of the avaliable Turkish sources about this battle?

This is a siege in the Hungarian source not a battle, I suggest to rename the article https://mek.oszk.hu/09400/09477/html/0011/832.html OrionNimrod (talk) 20:41, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1047941693749592094/1059126027655315566/Osmanl_Kaynaklarna_Gore_Fatih_Sultan_Mehmedin_Siyasi_ve_Askeri_Faaliyeti_Selahattin_Tansel_z-lib.org.pdf

Get help from Google Translate by viewing pages 178-185. Keremmaarda (talk) 20:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Siege of Belgrade has more battle in front of the castle but it called "siege" Siege of Belgrade (1456)

Also almost all siege had some filed battle but all of the called "siege". It started a siege, Hungarian retreated when heard the news about the Ottomans, it was not battle but Ottoman raiding on the retreated army. OrionNimrod (talk) 20:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, examine the pages I gave you. Or read the "war" section. After Ali Bey breaks the Hungarian army, Matthias begins to retreat. Mahmud Pasha comes to the battlefield late and they start chasing the Hungarian soldiers. And this war turned from a siege into a pitched battle. No orderly retreat.Keremmaarda (talk) 21:02, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Chasing is chasing not a battle. The siege was more than 1 month. OrionNimrod (talk) 21:06, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When the Turkish army came to Zvornik, they clashed with the Hungarian army, and then they followed the Hungarian army, which started to retreat. Keremmaarda (talk) 21:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fast translate, events since siege of Jajce: (bold font: Zvornik)

Source say siege was 1 month, Hungarians retreated and after the Ottomans chased them long, where is the battle? Why do you deny 1 month siege which was earlier?

According to them, Mátyás appeared unharmed at the twelfth hour as a saving angel, because as soon as the sultan learned that the Hungarian relief army was only two marches away from Jajca, remembering the bitter day in Nándorfehérvár and being filled with superstitious fear for the luck of the Hunya people, he immediately broke off the siege , he throws some of his cannons, siege equipment, and supplies into the river, leaves some behind, and retreats from the castle in the greatest haste.[14] Heltai (Magyar Krónika, II., 265.) even believes that Mátyás sneaked into the enemy camp in peasant clothes as a barley seller in order to spy on the Turkish camp and spent a whole day in front of the sultan's tent without appearing. The next day, the young king himself informed the sultan about the successful coup, and to prove his claim, he not only described the position of the Turkish army precisely, but also reported the number of meals that were brought to the sultan's tent in his presence. This would have scared Muhammad so much that he immediately broke camp and tried to avoid the collision with Mátyas by running frantically.

The latter chased the retreating Ottomans with his cavalry and followed them with the bulk of his army for a while, but after they had completely destroyed the intervening region, the king and his army soon had to come to an agreement and his previous plan, that he would drive the enemy through Serbia and possibly force him into battle, had to be abandoned. to change. His next decision now consisted of sending the Archbishop of Kalocsa to the Sava in order to cover and secure the connection of the army and its future retreat, while he would besiege Szrebernik with Imre Szapolyai and Zvornik with the main army led by himself, so that by taking them he would secure the future operations for his future operations. On the Drina section, get military points for yourself.[15]

Other writers present a different picture of what happened based on the available unclear data, [16] and it is possible that their presentation corresponds more closely to reality. According to them, Mátyás would have only sent a part of his army to relieve Jajca, and this was enough to pick up the tent pole of the Sultan there, while Mátyás with the bulk of his army of 10,000 men would have left Futak only after receiving news about this and according to one version already in September,[17] according to the other, on October 8[18] he would have crossed the river Száva at Rača, and leaving the archbishop of Kalocsa, István Várdai, with a suitable group to ensure connections, would have sent Szapolyait from here to the castle of Srebernik and the nearby rich to capture silver mines, while he himself, with the bulk of the army, made his way through the dense forests along the Drina towards Zvornik, where he arrived on October 19. Since the cannons, ammunition and food could not follow the army in the roadless countryside, they were transported on ships up the Drina.

Imre Szapolyai was lucky and quick in fulfilling his task, because after only a few days, after taking control of the castle and the mines, he marched with the main army under Zvornik with rich booty. However, this strong rock fortress, which was defended by Iskender Bey, held its own and after the endless autumn rains made it so difficult to supply the army's needs that everything was already needed, the besieging army became increasingly impatient. But the king just didn't want to expand. And when Imre Szapolyai lost the sight of one of his eyes due to an arrow shot, the superstitious army, seeing this as ominous, demanded an end to the siege all the more loudly. Mátyás, however, remained steadfast in his intention and was already preparing for the final assault, when he heard news around the middle of November that Mahmud Pasha, Omar, Isa and Ali begs were approaching with an army of 40,000 men to rescue the castle. Before long, Bey Ali's light cavalry appeared in front of the castle, and Szapolyai also took a stand in favor of breaking off the siege, but the king refused to withdraw his already issued decree. But most of the military now refused to obey, and so the king was forced to order a retreat, which took place in regrettable disorder due to a high degree of breakdown of discipline, which was also contributed to by the fact that, due to the bad weather and roads, the cannons, the podgyasz and all the camp equipment had to be left behind. Mahmud Pasha chased the king all the way to the Sava, while Ali Bey, rushing forward with light cavalry, allegedly took many prisoners.[19] Upon reaching the Sava, Mátyás entrusted the governance of Bosnia to Miklós Ujlaki, and he continued his retreat with the wreckage of the army, arriving in Bács on November 26, bringing the guilty before a court-martial and severely punishing them.[20] OrionNimrod (talk) 21:23, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This source seems very biased to me. Because Mehmed was going to fight with Matthias, but when he learned that the Hungarians were holding the narrow passes, he sent Mahmud Pasha instead of going with the large army. Expressions such as "Mehmed was afraid" or "he panicked" are a biased perspective. Keremmaarda (talk) 21:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please show your sources as I showed mine. That is the Hungarian perspective, btw google translation is not so perfect, and you do not see the marked sources. When the text mention that Mehmed was afraid it refer to the story of Bonfini who was in Matthias court, who made a very detailed Hungarian chronicle (I am working on a draft Draft:Rerum Hungaricarum decades), you know well the medieval sources used different languages than modern historians like medieval Turkish sources name the Hungarians "infidel". OrionNimrod (talk) 22:11, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I explained the quote from the source I gave in the "war" section. But I only referenced a part of it and did not cover the entire expedition and event. But Dr. Selahattin Tansel says that the two most important battles in the Ottoman-Hungarian wars during the Mehmed the Conqueror period were Belgrade and Zvornik. Keremmaarda (talk) 23:23, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please could you copy here all the translated Turkish source here as I did with the Hungarian one? It is good to see together all info. OrionNimrod (talk) 07:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, give me time, I will translate the pages when I am free. Keremmaarda (talk) 08:27, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Commanders[edit]

Mehmet 2 was besieging Jace so he wasnt able to command the army Semihas1234 (talk) 22:06, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@keremarda Mehmet couldnt be a commander since he was besieging jace Semihas1234 (talk) 22:09, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Keremmaarda Semihas1234 (talk) 22:11, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]