Talk:Baybars/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1

Assessment POV

The beginning of this section seems to be a wikipedian coming to some random conclusion on how "remarkable" this guy is, and being a "product of his time". He may or may not be, I donno. But I suggest this gets removed, or replaced by a prominent source. The second half seems to have some useful information. Ash Lux 07:58, 26 January 2005 (UTC)

Protected

I have protected this because the current edit war is pointless and annoying. Please solve your problems here. Adam Bishop 23:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I think a temporary protection for this page was necessary. In fact there are two sources given about the ethnicity of Baibars in the article, namely Britannica and Columbia Encyclopedia references. What they cite about his ethnic origin is that he was Turkic. Everyone can read those references.
Chapultepec 23:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think CoCoWaWa speaks English... Khoikhoi 19:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, at least I can say I tried to discuss... Khoikhoi 16:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Note: attempts to communicate with said user are responded in this. Khoikhoi 16:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Haroun Of Baghdad

Removed this line Haroun of Baghdad is based on baibar.Haroun of Bagdhdad in Arabian Nights is based on real caliph haroun Rasheed... Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.147.165.180 (talk) 03:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

See "The Crusades" by Harold Lamb for a different opinion. The description of supposedly eighth century Bagdad in Arabian Nights is obviously thirteenth century or later Cairo. Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.87.168.28 (talk) 05:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Slavery

I think this slavery box misshaping the page of Baibars. It has no direct connection to Baibars. Please consider that. Thank you. Samsam22 11:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC) This template was placed by an editor on August 29, 2007. For me it's a little bit overstated as well, I agree with you. So, for the moment I'm removing the template from the article. Any objections welcome! --Chapultepec 11:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Expanding Baibars Article

We should expand article of Baibars. What do you think ? Samsam22 (talk) 17:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Better wording

Right Chapultepec. I just added it as notice till we expand and fix this article. By the way I started an article about Lajin and corrected his name. When I am ready I will move to Baibars. Samsam22 (talk) 22:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem, we have enough time, no need to hurry. Yavash yavash.. =) --Chapultepec (talk) 22:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Cause of Death

Based on the linked sources, Baibars had a very interesting cause of death (incidental ingestion of poison). I would add something about this but I feel a little ill-informed in these areas to make a modification. Can a more knowledgable Wikipedian add a line or two regarding the cause of death? Thanks. :Leeannedy 22:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I just added a preliminary section on that. Hopefully someone later can come forward with some better sources than mine (which are all tertiary sources). --Politizer (talk) 15:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Coinage

Baybars dinar, 1260-1277.

Here's a coin of Baybars. Feel free to insert it in the article. Cheers PHG (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC) Better image PHG (talk) 20:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Name

Adam change seems ok , though readers will think that all sultans were named al-Malik since birth . Anyway, I think the most important that we have same name ( spelling )of each sultan on all pages. Thnx Samsam22 (talk) 21:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Was there some discussion about this somewhere else? The English name is Baybars, not Baibars. Google brings in 160k to 40k, and most of the 40k are going to be copies or references to this page here on wiki. Why did we do this? Seems like original research, or at least ignoring WP:NAME. [edit: I actually am curious and it's cool if there is a concensus, but no one noticed that every source for this article uses Baybars with the y?] -LlywelynII (talk) 13:02, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Google Books has it about equal; Baybars 1,363 to Baibars 1,039. Numerous scholarly books about the crusades use Baibars (although many use Baybars instead, of course). In this case I don't think it really matters. The Arabic diphthong in question can be transliterated either way. It can be transliterated even as -ei or -ey, and Google shows that Beibars and Beybars are also sometimes used. Some other languages even use Bajbars or Bejbars. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

BAIBARS and TURKIC(HUN People)

Baibars was a Blue Eyed, and Brunette(reason : climate)'Kipchak TURK(HUN)'. he was taken prisoner from Deshti-Kipchak(Caucasia).. and have been sold as a slave to Arabs.. BAIBARS Before the slave, then became Sultan-Emperor..only been able to do this "TURK(HUN)people" in the world. TURKIC(HUN)people created by the GOD "Superior-Warrior-Super Nationalist_Racist_Turk women are very high Virginity Honorable" TURKIC(HUN) people are Barbarian.. for example : HUN-MONGOL Invasions..but not mongolian slant-eyed. they are HUN(TURKIC) .. TURKs are sons of Islam Prophet Ibrahim..arab-hebrew-HUN(TURK) .. ALLAH(GOD) told the prophet İbrahim : I will make you a great nation" .. they are not arabs or hebrew.. hebrews are cursed horny tribe and arabs are bigoted.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.65.242.128 (talk) 17:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

Have you ever read the references?
--Chapultepec 18:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Baibars is considered as one of the greatest circassian in history, in most of the circassian, arabic and many turkish history books he considered as a circassian. Even his look is more circassian than a turkish one (circassian have bright skin and hair while turkish are from mongol origin).
have you ever read descriptions of kipchaks in history? and do mongols have brown skin? wtf? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.175.230 (talk) 13:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I haven't seen any Turkish books regarding Baibars as a Circassian nor the other the sources.
And authoritative sources like Britannica and Columbia encyclopedia reads that he was Turkic.
As for the Arab sources please read this one:
The Cambridge History of Islam By P. M. ( Peter Malcolm) Holt, Bernard Lewis
--Chapultepec 18:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Baibars was a Kipchak Turk; even his name is poof enough. His name is in old Turkic language, not in Circassian. Meaning of his name: bay(bey) means lord or senior, bars(pars) means panther or leopard. I know contemporary Circassians consider him their great national hero icon but this does not make him Circassian. There are many examples like that: Kurds, Arabs and Turks all consider Salahaddin-i Eyyubi was from their nationality; modern english people see Rchard the Lionheart as their national hero but he was french and he couldn't even speak a word of english; etc....Isatay 07:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Please remember Baibars was the sultan of Egypt. I do not understand Circassians or others consider him their great national hero.Samsam22 01:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
He was a mameluk not an Egyptian(aka Coptic), greek and surely not an Arab, he can be Turkic or Caucacian, but the fact is he just happened to have millions of Egyptian and arab slaves, get on with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.108.19.229 (talk) 19:54, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
many circassians were mamlukes too, and the true name of beibars is "pei pas" means in circassian language "ambush the enemy" or "wait the enemy" somehting like that, and it is known that there were another beibars, but that is known for sure that he was circassian, so how come that two sultans with the same name come from totally different origins? if beibars is a name of turks then why the other beibars had it?. well this is something we must check, if beibars was a circassian or not, because it is a fact that beibars was kiddnaped from the area of north west caucasus and balck sea, where is circassians homeland is situated, and it is known that area was occupied then by kypchak tribes, so it could be that beibars was circassian who were kiddnaped from that area and is known in these days as a kypchak because of the occupied areas of balck sea and caucasus by the kypchaks, and people belive that he came from kypchaks.Andynapso (talk) 17:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Baybars was from the Bahri dynasty. That means he was of Kipchak (Turkic) origin. There is no discussion on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.179.96.190 (talk) 01:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Circassian

Circassians are not of Turkic origin. Circassians are ethnic of Turkey. 'Turkish' mean.. Turk of Turkey.. Turkey's Turks are Oghuz-Kipchak Turkic people" people of Turkey are %50 Ethnic .. TURANIA <- Map of TURKIC(HUN) PEOPLE

TURKIC(HUN) people : Finns, Magyars(Hungarians),Letonians,Estonians,Lithuanians,Turkmens,Central Asian-Turkey-Caucasian Turkic people. etc..

- - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.173.142.170 (talk) 08:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

  • People who are of Turkic/Turkish etnicity are 85% of modern Turkey's population. They are more than 60 million in the land. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.173.66.247 (talk) 19:22, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Clean-up lead

I recently made an edit in an attempt to fix a malformed sentence in the lead of the article. See here. The sentence is currently "Baibars or Baybars (Arabic: الملك الظاهر ركن الدين بيبرس البندقداري, al-Malik al-Ẓāhir Rukn al-Din Baibars al-Bunduqdar),Baibars was Kipchak Turk origin , nicknamed Abu al-Futuh and Abu l-Futuhat, which means Father of Conquests, pointing to his victories .(literally "The father of conquest"; Arabic: أبو الفتوح) (1223 – 1 July 1277), was the fourth Sultan of Egypt from the Mamluk Bahri dynasty."

To be blunt, that's an abomination of the English language. There's a random sentence "Baibars was Kipchak Turk origin" inserted as a grammatically incorrect clause, information about "father of conquests" is repeated, and "pointing to his victories" makes the sentence run-on unnecessarily long. I propose changing it to: "Baibars or Baybars (Arabic: الملك الظاهر ركن الدين بيبرس البندقداري, al-Malik al-Ẓāhir Rukn al-Din Baibars al-Bunduqdar), nicknamed Abu al-Futuh and Abu l-Futuhat (literally "The father of conquest"; Arabic: أبو الفتوح) (c. 1223 – 1 July 1277), was the fourth Sultan of Egypt from the Mamluk Bahri dynasty."

This trims down the sentence to a reasonable size and corrects the grammatical errors I noted above. Thoughts? ~ RobTalk 20:13, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Judging from the other articles concerning Bahri dynasty sultans, your revised version looks good to me. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:30, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
This was now reverted by HistoryofIran. It looks like there's consensus for this edit, with the only dissenting editor being the IP that reverted it originally. ~ RobTalk 20:11, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
I would suspect the IP is actually a blocked user. So their opinion is unimportant. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:16, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
I strongly support the clean ups of the article. i think the revertion doesnt make sense 139.0.83.147 (talk) 20:03, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Baibars. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:23, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Baibars. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:34, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Baibars. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:29, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Baibars. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:18, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Name: Baybars not Baibars

Change his name/title. Aurangzayb (talk) 12:35, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 20 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 15:53, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

– Baybars is the more common spelling. Srnec (talk) 15:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:18, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Support: Sold. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:24, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Support: per nom. I've also seen "Baybars" much more in WP:RS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Support — A quick search of scholarly sources confirms the nomination's reasoning. Yue🌙 08:44, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Misrepresentation of Thorau

The physical description in the wiki article as it currently stands:

"Baybars was described as fair-skinned in contrast to the "swarthy" skin of the native Egyptians, broad-faced with small eyes, very tall (which was typical in both Arabic and European descriptions of Turkic men), and having a cataract in one of his eyes. Several descriptions say he had Blue eyes."


However much of this would appear to be a fabrication of Thorau. Thorau does not say Baybars was light skinned in comaprison to Egyptians; he in fact says Baybars was swarthy. And he doesn't mention anything about facial bone features, either.

Page 28 or his book reads:

Baybars ( who is later described as a tall man with a powerful voice , a swarthy skin and blue eyes ....

A physical description from another source published by Brill is practically identical:[1]

Baybars is described as a tall man with broad chest and shoulders, slim legs, a powerful voice, swarthy skin, and blue eyes.

See also W.B. Bartlett (2021)[2] for an identical description. - Hunan201p (talk) 08:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Encyclopaedia of Islam, THREE — Brill". referenceworks.brillonline.com.
  2. ^ Bartlett, W. B. (15 October 2021). The Fall of Christendom: The Road to Acre 1291. Amberley Publishing Limited. ISBN 978-1-4456-8418-5.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Baybars/Archive_1&oldid=1184858810"