Talk:Bazon Brock

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Death is a mess?

I see my edit changing "mess" to "iniquity" was reverted. Schweinerei is very difficult to translate in this context. Though I'm also not too happy with 'iniquity', I think 'mess' is even worse, in that it is a translation of the wrong sense of Schweinerei, as well as being far too harmless.

I am sure we can agree that there are several possible meanings of Schweinerei, all, no doubt, to do with the perceived attributes of pigs:

1. something that offends our aesthetic sensibilities: a mess (schmutziger, sehr unordentlicher Zustand)
2. something that offends our moral sense (often, though not here, something fraudulent or something that would be done by a morally reprehensible person)
3. something that offends our sense of (sexual) decency

• If a child leaves toys strewn all round the room or tips food on the floor, that is a mess (sense 1 of Schweinerei).
• If someone does something that is corrupt, fraudulent or unfair, it may be a Schweinerei, but it is not a mess.

Even given the context of aesthetics, I don't think you can call death "a mess". To me, that would merely imply a sense of chaos, rather than a sense of outrage.

Perhaps someone can think of something better than "iniquity" that better conveys the sense of moral outrage. --Boson (talk) 23:57, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

As I said in my last edit summary (before seeing this), "mess" IS too week, but "outrage" (last in place) is not what Brock said. "Schweinerei" is derived from Schwein = pig, the beastly association is wanted. The translation is on my user page, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:55, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I take your point, but I still disagree with "beastly mess". I'm not sure of American usage, but in British English "a beastly mess" is a term that a stereotypical old-fashioned public (i.e. private) school girl might use when mildly annoyed at an awkward situation. "Beastly" is an extremely mild substitute for a swearword. Without a much clearer context, "beastly" does not, in my opinion, convey the bestial ("non-human") aspect possibly conveyed by the German. I do see the need to examine possible ways of retaining the "pig" allusion, but I haven't found a good way of doing so. In English culture, I think "pig" has connotations of untidiness ("Your room is like a pig-sty") or gluttony and/or lack of manners ("pig oneself", "eat like a pig"), but I don't think "pig" or "beastly" have the same connotations of morally reprehensible behaviour, or Verwerflichkeit, that the German Schwein or Schweinerei have, as in "Sie sind ein Schwein!", ""Meine Tat ist eine Schweinerei". It may be very difficult ground to tread. Even if one could find a sensible way of retaining the pig connotations, I am not sure exactly which associations were intended. I did wonder if the unclean ("not kosher") aspect was relevant, but that got me wondering about the implied perpetrator of this Schweinerei; that made me think that the author might very well be just using "verdammte Schweinerei" in the normal colloquial sense of something that one finds totally unacceptable. I had rejected "obscenity" because I wasn't sure it had the right connotations, and in such circumstance I prefer to "undertranslate", to avoid mistranslating; it may, however, be the best choice ("the lesser evil"), though I think "beastly" has to go. --Boson (talk) 23:04, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts! I also rejected "obscenity", just noted that it had been proposed as what people would say today. (But we speak 1968.) - We need to distinguish two things: translation of the sign, and translation of the longer speech. In both cases, the German is ALSO there for everybody to compare. For the sign, it has to be short, as shown on my user. I had the help of two native English speakers who found that "mess" alone was too weak but with "damned" strong enough. For the speech, I am more open for suggestions, and only there "beastly" comes in. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:15, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply! Obviously, I thought my suggestions were (slightly) better; otherwise I would not have made the changes. However, I will not press the matter, since I am not that happy with my suggestions, either. My problem with "mess" is not just that it is too weak, but that it is a translation of the wrong sense of de:Schweinerei; in other words I think a normal English person who did not speak German would wonder why death should be described as a "mess" (a chaotic and difficult situation, or possibly a gory scene if referring to a specific death). So I shall sleep on it in the (faint) hope that the brilliant translation will suddenly come to me (or someone else). --Boson (talk) 00:51, 13 February 2013 (UTC)