Talk:Benetton Formula/Archive 1

Revert

I will revert the last contrib it seems to fail NPOV to me see : http://www.grandprix.com/gt/gt00044.html and http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-czatad.html for more information. Ericd 19:33, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The nationality of the team

I think that the nationality of this team was originaly UK and changed to Italy in 1996 or 1997. But, my memory is not certain. Is it my misunderstanding? --Morio 21:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they changed their "nationality" in 1996.

The company that ran Benetton was Benetton Formula Ltd, which is a company in the UK and never from Italy. Italy does not call its companies limited. Private Limited Companies by Quotas are known as società a responsabilità limitata or S.r.l. Even if the Benetton family are Italian. Renault bought the company in 2000 but it was not run as a French constructor until it called its self Renault. (Darmech (talk) 18:08, 30 October 2018 (UTC)).

Vandalism deleted

The user with the ip address 203.30.216.1 saw fit to state that he/she likes pie in the middle of the article. i deleted it Thunderous503 14:54, 22 August 2006

Senna

In the drivers section it says: "Ayrton Senna (when it was called Toleman)". Toleman is a seperate team with a different name and article (even if it eventually became Benetton) so I'm taking this out. Tyrrell drivers aren't listed as BAR drivers even though BAR bought the team. Alexj2002 23:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Pictures

I don't see fit to have all those pictures on this page, so I took them out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by VincentG (talk • contribs) 17:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

I think having some adds to the article - I've left out a couple though, there were rather a lot. 4u1e 17:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Nationality categories

Benetton was registered (presumably its Italian parent company Benetton) under a UK racing license from 1986 to 1995. They then decided to register it under an Italian racing license from 1995 to the end of their ownership. The racing team was correctly listed in both British and Italian categories - I have restored the British ones (And of course the team was based in the UK the whole time!) 4u1e 17:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Benetton at first British, then Italian, then British again

I think Benetton held British licence from 1986 to 1995, then Italian licence from 1996 to 1997 (only 2 seasons), then again British licence from 1998 to 2001. As evidence for my claim I offer links on youtube related to French Grand Prix from 1996 to 2000 seasons. Above Benetton pit garage is clearly visible Italian flag at 1996 French Grand Prix and 1997 French Grand Prix and then British flag from 1998 - 2000 French Grand Prix. Change of nationality from Italian back to British occurred maybe after 1997 season when Italian Flavio Briatore was replaced by British David Richards and team underwent other reorganisation. At 1997 German Grand Prix after Berger win Italian anthem was played on podium for Benetton as Italian constructor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92rfSJimjxw at 8:08 (1996 French Grand Prix and Italian flag) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMX6SuJym-A at 6:06 (1997 French Grand Prix and Italian flag) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjZRPBUDZMo at 13:32 (1998 French Grand Prix and British flag) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao8rTAIlS5M at 1:08:16 (1999 French Grand Prix and British flag) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrzusV03fag at 17:32 (2000 French Grand Prix and British flag) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.127.65.38 (talk) 20:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

These all seem to be flags placed over the pits by team members and I doubt whether they have any standing officially. We need a more reliable source than this. Britmax (talk) 21:31, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately we have no other reliable source. FIA as highest governing motorsport body did not issue official Entry list with stating about constructor´s nationality at that time and Benetton in the period 1998-2001 did not win any race so we have no national anthem hearing on podium either. But this change of nationality seems to be reasoned at least after 1999 season because at that time Benetton team (Enstone factory in Britain) was sold to Renault, but still for 2 seasons (2000 and 2001) competed under Benetton name, although Italian Benetton parent company did not own the team any more. It was the same story as Renault in 2011 season, when French Renault parent company sold the team and team raced with British licence in 2011 season, although still under Renault name, officially renamed to Lotus only after 2011 season. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.127.65.38 (talk) 22:02, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

• I've reverted your edits, 91.127.65.38, as you don't have any reliable sources to back up your edits, but merely some guesses. I also cannot find anything to back up your claim. The location of the factory is irrelevant, and the Renault takeover would have made them French if they'd changed their racing license, not British necessarily. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:21, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

• This is not a fantastic source in Wikipedia terms, but it certainly beats a speculative guess based on YouTube videos... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:28, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

• your cited article written by Jessica Donaldson is surely only a copy and slight adaptation of wikipedia article about Benetton, so it can not be reliable source for claiming Benetton as Italian in 1998, 1999 or 2000 season. I have at least something what proves my claim, you have absolutely nothing what proves your claim. Please put one reliable source for claiming Benetton as Italian from 1998 to 2001. Statement of Luciano Benetton from November 29 1995 at http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1309&dat=19951129&id=FWoWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3B4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3285,4122386 only proves that Benetton raced in 1996 under Italian licence, nothing more. Where is evidence that in 1998 season stil Benetton raced with Italian licence ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.127.65.38 (talk) 22:48, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

• You're proposing a change, therefore the WP:BURDEN is on you to provide reliable evidence for your change. You haven't done so. Given that the Chief Executive in those latter years was one of the Benetton family, that makes it less likely that they'd revert to a British license. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:54, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

• This describes the team as being Italian when they were sold. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:13, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

• I know that the burden is on mine, therefore I provided as a reliable evidence five video footages made during FIA championship Grand Prix which show Italian flag above Benetton pit garage in 1996 and 1997 and then British flag from 1998 to 2000 French Grand Prix. French Grand Prix was then FIA championship race and was organized officially by FIA. Moreover, all other flags above pit garages are correct ( e.g. British for Williams, Italian for Ferrari, Swiss for Sauber etc ...) so there is no reason to think that FIA repeatedly made the same mistake during three events in a row (1998, 1999 and 2000).

Please, what else could be stronger evidence than national flag above team´s own pit garage during highest FIA motorsport championship event ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.127.65.38 (talk) 23:32, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

• It is well know that the flags above the pit garages are NOT strong evidence at all. The flags at the French GP's pit garages back then in particular have proven to be wrong. From the 1999 French Grand Prix (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao8rTAIlS5M) you provided a video from, look carefully at around 1:08.23 and you will notice BRITISH flags on the Jordan garage. Yet following the race the next day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sI4UcVok38 from 8:33) the IRISH national anthem is correctly played for that same Jordan team that have won the race. Therefore the flags on the garages are no reliable evidence. Tvx1 (talk) 01:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

• Exactly. It is also well-known that, at the 1997 Argentine Grand Prix, there was an Irish Tricolour displayed for Eddie Irvine by mistake on the podium, so those aren't completely reliable either. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

• OK guys, I accept your opinions, but I must underline one substantial difference. National anthems and flags that occur during podium ceremony are sudden events therefore there is great probability of mistake, e.g. 1998 Belgian Grand Prix and British anthem for Irish Jordan, or 2009 Chinese Grand Prix and British anthem for Austrian Red Bull team or 1997 Argentine GP and Irish flag for British Eddie Irvine. Unlike podium ceremony, pit garage flags during French Grand Prix were not sudden events, but these national flags were kept continuously during all race weekend from thursday to sunday and even not only one Grand Prix but every French Grand Prix from 1998 to 2000. Moreover, in 1996 and 1997 Italian flag was above Benetton garage, and then suddenly a change occurred. I think if there was a mistake, Rocco Benetton would ask for remedy and insist on using Italian flag just like during in 1996-1997 French Grand Prix. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.127.65.38 (talk) 08:09, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

• National anthems are not as sudden as you claim. The same anthems are played throughout the seasons and years. For the exceptional cases were a mistake was made, it is well documented that they were indeed mistakes. If no complaints were made, than we can conclude the anthems which were played were correct. Take Jordan again, for instance, except for the first one (which was not as much a mistake, but more precisely stupidity by my fellow Belgians. After all, what kind of ridiculous is reasoning is it to play the national anthem of another country if you don't have the correct one. It's like telling Kimi Räikkönen you don't have a recording of the Finnish anthem and you are going to play the Swedish anthem instead because that is a neighbor country of his), where the organizers did know that it had to be the Irish one though, all their wins were accompanied by the Irish national anthem (and that spans six season). Therefore it's obvious that their nationality was Irish and that the British flag you can see at the French Grands Prix is wrong. And yes if the French were capable to put up wrong flags once, they were capable to do so more than once. And you know what? They did. I already provided the information on the 1999 French GP. Well look here at 12:19 for 1998 and here at 17:07 for 2000 and we have British flags for Jordan in three consecutive years even though the team was Irish all the time. Tvx1 (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

• Maybe it would be the best to contact the FIA at their official website www.fia.com with the request for an issue of official statement of Benetton´s nationality between 1998-2001. Unlike Jordan team, Benetton once in the past was officially registered as British team, during Schumacher era every time Michael won a race British anthem was played for Benetton. Maybe they simply reverted to their previous British license. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.127.92.85 (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

• Or, maybe it would be best for you to drop this debate, since you have absolutely nothing valid to back up your claims. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:22, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

That would be a primary source and maybe OR. You are forgetting to sign your posts again (4x~). Britmax (talk) 18:29, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I was asked to research this by Tvx1 through all my books, and I can clarify that in the Grand Prix Data Book, it says "The combination of Schumacher and intelligent team strategy paid off with both titles in 1995, although they seemed to miss their superstar the following season when the team officially changed their nationality to Italian". I think this is good enough. To clarify British from 1986 to 1995 and Italian from 1996 to 2001. —Gyaro–Maguus— 21:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion the best way to reveal a real truth about Benetton license from 1998 to 2001 is an official appeal directly to FIA through e-mail at their official website www.fia.com. Some man responsible for WikiProject Formula One should contact the FIA with an official request, otherwise doubts will remain. Argue for Italian nationality by pointing out a mistake made in case of Jordan team is not very trustworthy.91.127.9.152 (talk) 12:00, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

No particular editors are "responsible" for the Formula One WikiProject. If you think contacting the FIA would be helpful, you are welcome to do it yourself. DH85868993 (talk) 06:47, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

• IP, drop the stick. Your only evidence has been proven to be potentially unreliable, and this pointless crusade of yours has now been going on for almost a month. Go and find something more productive to do, please. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:32, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

IP, at Wikipedia there are guidelines regarding consensus and reliable sources. Now, firstly, the consensus is against you, and secondly, the sources provided are reliable. I would like to note that this issue is not worthy of the aggravation you appear to have. Constructor nationalities have next to no importance in F1, and this isn't even a current issue. So drop the proverbial stick. —Gyaro–Maguus— 03:02, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Did you mean to say "are reliable" there? Britmax (talk) 19:00, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Source for Benetton as Italian until 2001 - http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/23418/benetton-ready-for-today-s-b201-launch/ Lucullus19 (talk) 19:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Ross Brawn

Brawn left Benetton at the end of 1996, he followed Schumacher he didn't leave with him. Brawn was still the technical director in 1996 with Berger and Alesi. Rory Byrne retired at the end of 1995 and was persuaded to join Ferrari in 1996 for the 1997 season. Darmech 18:26, 30 Oct 2018 (UTC)