Talk:Bhai Mati Das

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picture caption[edit]

it may be the truth about the tin shed but it doesn't have to be so derogatory

note[edit]

Article mentions only one date. Also, the context of the execution is vague. (How were the Kashmiri Brahmins involved?) Aurangzeb rounded up and killed many people; is this the martyrdom? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.210.60.214 (talk) 14:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resignation[edit]

I demand that Utcurch resigns as admin on wiki pedia Reasons (he knows nothing of the sikh religion, yet makes edits at free will, becasue..HE THINKs he is right.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Panthkhalsa (talk • contribs) 22:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I second my voice for your resignation[edit]

I have been watching the actions of Utcurch for the past 2 weeks and as a sikh i am deeply offended by his comments. He is insulting the sikh religion in the highest order by dissmissing the vars of Bhai gurdas. Bhai gurdas ji is the ultimate authoritiy in the sikh religion. his words cannot be disputed by any sikh, to do so is Blasphomy. Any writer who had dismissed the words of bhai gurdas ji should bbe excommunicated from the faith. (You think that you are right, but you are not. Take this from a practicing sikh.) i will be alerting other sikhs on this. WGJKK WGJKF! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sikhwiz (talk • contribs) 22:42, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stop creating sockpuppet/meatpuppet accounts, and have a look at Wikipedia:No original research. Misquoting and misinterpreting Bhai Gurda's words, and adding your propaganda without any citing any reliable source won't help. utcursch | talk 17:08, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Scholar account of the deaths[edit]

The sources used in the article are very poor and make no distinction between history and legend. I will note available sources.

An article about the painting used in our infobox (and like artifacts):-

...Gurus are brave in face of injustice and tyranny and are willing to bear torture and sacrifice their life in defence of truth and faith. The same is true for the followers of the Gurus: they have shown commitment to Guru and the Panth and ability to sacrifice their life in its defence. However, these ideal personalities however do not appear in their social context. In museums on Sikh history, the paintings depict Gurus and their followers as exemplars of faith, but without telling us the milieu in which they worked. There is no sense of social, political, economic change. Since this context is not provided, the sole motivating force of history and the life of people depicted in the museum is faith. It is Sikh faith alone, according to the museum that gives identity to the personalities depicted here...
...Moreover, Muslims (with the exception of Guru Nanak's companion Mardana) are overwhelmingly identified as the enemy. They have a distinctive appearance- in shape of the turban, green colour of clothes, moustaches and a cruel expression on face. Thus, without being told it is easy for visitors to a Sikh museum to identify Muslims as the oppressors. This depiction is extremely problematic. The association of colour green with the Muslim community is a modern one. There is no evidence that Muslims in medieval South Asia particularly identified themselves with it. The Sikhs, in contrast, are shown in yellow, blue (both colours identified with Khalsa) and white. Also, a large body of scholarship has shown that the image of the evil Muslim in Indian history is a false one. In particular case of Sikh history, there are several examples where Sikhs worked with the Mughals, and that 18^th century Sikh groups were a divided lot...
— Singh, Kanika (2014). "HISTORY PAINTINGS IN SIKH MUSEUMS". Proceedings of the Indian History Congress. 75: 1377–1382. ISSN 2249-1937.
...(O)ne of the disciples of Guru Teg Bahadur [who] was killed at Chandni Chowk in 1675. Popular Sikh tradition informs us that the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb was forcing a group of Kashmiri Pandits to convert to Islam when the latter approached Guru Teg Bahadur for help. The Guru challenged Aurangzeb that if the emperor could convert him, everyone else would convert; else the emperor would have to give up his policy of coercion.
Guru Teg Bahadur along with three of his disciples – Bhai Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das and Bhai Dyala – was captured and imprisoned at the Mughal kotwali in Delhi (the present day langar khana of the Sis Ganj gurdwara). These three Sikhs were tortured in the presence of the guru to scare him into converting to Islam. It is said that Bhai Mati Das was sawn in half, Bhai Sati Das wrapped in cotton and set on fire and Bhai Dyala boiled alive. Even after witnessing the torture and death of his followers, Guru Teg Bahadur refused to convert to Islam. As a result, he was beheaded...
— Singh, Kanika (January 2018). "The story of a Sikh museum". Seminar. 701 (INDIA 2017: A Symposium on the Year That Was). Retrieved 2020-12-28.

TrangaBellam (talk) 08:19, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There exists almost nothing in scholarship apart from these mentions; I am proposing a merge to Guru Teg Bahadur. Where we can discuss these issues in depth. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:39, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]