Talk:Big Ben/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2019

big ben is a time machine that the queen of England uses to murder people in the past. LD gaming7 (talk) 16:35, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

... so she can use it to go back and edit the article before it was protected. Dbfirs 21:06, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Cast iron tiles and accuracy issues.

shouldn't the new roof tiles be longer lasting stainless steel? Can anyone tell me? Am I too late?

also very little is mentioned online about the different accuracies and inaccuracies such as the effect of traffic on the going, Or the problems of air pressure and temperature. Does anyone have any information?

For instance, how often do the clock man have to put a penny on or take a penny off?

And Why not just use a half early and be done with it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.197.63.153 (talk) 01:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't know about the roof tiles, but I haven't heard that stainless steel is useful. The UK Parliament has YouTube videos showing how accuracy is maintained. This is the one I found first by googling. It might be replacing an earlier, very similar, 2009 video. The pennies are placed according to how well the clock is keeping time, where atmospheric temperature changes have the most effect. The going-affecting pile of metal on the pendulum seems to contain more than just pre-decimal pence pieces, although that coin seems invariably what's added or subtracted. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:26, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

but is there support for a calibrated adjustment smaller than the .4 second penny? and do the clock men support a weather correction or isochronic adjustmment? its such unique tower and clock combination. it should have that high accuracy finery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.197.63.153 (talk) 17:30, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't know whether there ever is need for a weight smaller than the old pence, but the use of such a large coin, when lighter ones were available, suggests that there isn't. The need for corrections indicates that the pendulum somewhat violates the principle of isochonism, so I don't understand your use of "isochronic". Big Ben's clock pendulum seems to be built on the principle of an astronomical regulator (as described in De Carle's Practical Clock Repairing), where the pendulum is set to always swing slower than needed for true timekeeping, and the weight tray to always hold some weight to bring the pendulum closer to true. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:06, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

yea setting a clock fast is copeing.. its easy to stop a small pendulum and catch up..when younset a clock.. then tower clock should have a proper adjustment, tomtake it very close to perfection. then you just turn a knob once a month.. plus or minus a tic.. or no change.. or maybe once a year.. there are lots of better managed clocks now.. a second per year is reasonable now. i proposed to fix the clock. with 19th century means.. and in keeping woth the design. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.197.63.153 (talk) 22:43, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Big Ben's quarter chimes in this article is a bit "off-tune"

I noticed that the Quarter chimes are a bit off-tune. The article states that:
"The four "quarter bells" sound G♯, F♯, E, and B".
But when I hear these "quarter bells" for myself, they are a note off-tune. It really sounds like: "A, G, F, and C", instead of "G♯, F♯, E, and B" in the article.
Is this a bit misleading? I hope that this correction can be remedied.
Please listen to the "quarter bells" again and again (I swear that the "quarter bells" in this article is off-tune), before voicing your opinion on my statement, and/or proving me wrong about it.
Though I don't have any evidence to back it up, I have listened to the "quarter bells" very clearly.
Thanks! --Wikipedia Vienna (Talk Page) 16:18, 16 August 2019 (UTC)--

have your ears been tuned? Roxy, the dog. wooF 16:26, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Interestingly, Google shows the notes in various keys, but I think E major was the official one at the time the bells were cast. Of course, concert pitch has varied slightly through history, and the notes you suggest are easier to play for a beginner. Dbfirs 17:01, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, Dbfirs! I'll be screwed if I had heard that wrongly. Concert pitch does vary over time. Also, the notes I had suggested, were easier to play for a beginner. But still, "E major" was the official tune at the time the bells were cast, in 1859 (I guess?).
Anyway, thank you Dbfirs] for correcting my doubts!
Also, to Roxy, the dog—yes—my ears have been tuned, but still, thanks for asking.
Wikipedia Vienna (Talk Page) 17:57, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Is it the actual bells heard in London, or the Wikipedia audio file that sounds off-key? I don't have perfect pitch, but perhaps someone could check that they are the same, or we could check with an oscilloscope. Dbfirs 07:43, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Any reliable sources for "A, G, F, and C"? Our interpretation of the audio file means nothing without reliable sources to back it up. Checking with an oscilloscope is also original research. Firebrace (talk) 13:07, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

... but the audio file was an individual's recording that might have been speeded up (sped up in American English?), so needs checking. It is unlikely on its own to account for the 6% difference between the keys, but combine that with the change in concert pitch .... Anyone here have perfect pitch or an oscilloscope? Dbfirs 13:40, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Find other recordings of Big Ben, on YouTube, and compare with the audio file. Firebrace (talk) 16:56, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

They sound the same to me. Dbfirs 16:27, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what you say. That would be Original Research. WP::OR and your ears are not a Reliable Source WP:RS at least according to WP's criteria. 194.207.86.26 (talk) 21:33, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Big Ben's quarter chimes in this article is a bit "off-tune"

I noticed that the Quarter chimes are a bit off-tune. The article states that:
"The four "quarter bells" sound G♯, F♯, E, and B".
But when I hear these "quarter bells" for myself, they are a note off-tune. It really sounds like: "A, G, F, and C", instead of "G♯, F♯, E, and B" in the article.
Is this a bit misleading? I hope that this correction can be remedied.
Please listen to the "quarter bells" again and again (I swear that the "quarter bells" in this article is off-tune), before voicing your opinion on my statement, and/or proving me wrong about it.
Though I don't have any evidence to back it up, I have listened to the "quarter bells" very clearly.
Thanks! --Wikipedia Vienna (Talk Page) 16:18, 16 August 2019 (UTC)--

have your ears been tuned? Roxy, the dog. wooF 16:26, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Interestingly, Google shows the notes in various keys, but I think E major was the official one at the time the bells were cast. Of course, concert pitch has varied slightly through history, and the notes you suggest are easier to play for a beginner. Dbfirs 17:01, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, Dbfirs! I'll be screwed if I had heard that wrongly. Concert pitch does vary over time. Also, the notes I had suggested, were easier to play for a beginner. But still, "E major" was the official tune at the time the bells were cast, in 1859 (I guess?).
Anyway, thank you Dbfirs] for correcting my doubts!
Also, to Roxy, the dog—yes—my ears have been tuned, but still, thanks for asking.
Wikipedia Vienna (Talk Page) 17:57, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Is it the actual bells heard in London, or the Wikipedia audio file that sounds off-key? I don't have perfect pitch, but perhaps someone could check that they are the same, or we could check with an oscilloscope. Dbfirs 07:43, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Any reliable sources for "A, G, F, and C"? Our interpretation of the audio file means nothing without reliable sources to back it up. Checking with an oscilloscope is also original research. Firebrace (talk) 13:07, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

... but the audio file was an individual's recording that might have been speeded up (sped up in American English?), so needs checking. It is unlikely on its own to account for the 6% difference between the keys, but combine that with the change in concert pitch .... Anyone here have perfect pitch or an oscilloscope? Dbfirs 13:40, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Find other recordings of Big Ben, on YouTube, and compare with the audio file. Firebrace (talk) 16:56, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

They sound the same to me. Dbfirs 16:27, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what you say. That would be Original Research. WP::OR and your ears are not a Reliable Source WP:RS at least according to WP's criteria. 194.207.86.26 (talk) 21:33, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Minute Hand

A reference book says the tip of the minute hand travels 118 miles per year. I calculated 146 miles per average year. Right? 2001:56A:F03F:5200:311D:8737:DE6A:FA98 (talk) 19:43, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Assuming the length of the minute hand is correctly stated here (= 14 feet) and a year of 365.25 days, I get ~146 miles per year, too. What reference are you looking at (how well does it show its work?) and are we correctly stating the minute hand length (is it sourced?)? In any case, this isn't going to affect the article, because that information isn't there, as far as I can tell. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:29, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• London panorama with Big Ben -- original watercolor by Maritess Sulcer March 2020.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:52, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I've removed the image but not because I saw this notice. It was placed in a section where there were already two other images, and the text was being scrunched in a way that made it potentially less readable. The editor placing the image has an account name with similarities to that of the painter, and I assume that their choice wasn't strictly based on what was the most appropriate out of all those available. If we were to have a representative painting of the tower, there are the studies by Monet, as well as probably other famous ones to chose from. Dhtwiki (talk) 21:42, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

The Monet studies show only Victoria Tower; so they aren't appropriate here. Dhtwiki (talk) 21:49, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

What's the big ben made of?

What is Big Ben made of? Materials to produce the Elizabeth Tower came from all over the United Kingdom, with cast iron girders from Regent's Canal Ironworks being used. Yorkshire Anston stone and Cornish granite were used on the exterior and a Birmingham foundry supplied the Elizabeth Tower's iron roofing plates.2804:14D:BE86:9172:1D5D:CC0A:6AD0:E335 (talk) 21:36, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Do you have sources for this and what changes to the article do you want made? As for the metallurgical makeup of the bell itself, which is what I first thought was wanted and did not see in the article, the contract specified 76% copper and 24% tin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dhtwiki (talk • contribs) 01:57, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

References

Breakdowns and other incidents

I see no rationale for keeping this nerdy compendium of banal trivia. The clock stopped from 7:16 a.m. to 1:15 pm on 2 April 1934. Hold the front page. The lights were switched off during the Blitz. Well I should bloody well hope so. What would be interesting is if they were NOT switched off! Firebrace (talk) 22:00, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

What is an encyclopedia but a "nerdy compendium"? The entries detail stoppages important enough to have been reported in the news, even if the front page wasn't held (although not sure that it wasn't in every case). So, the entries are sourced, and not just to an variety of sources (although there's one book that is used for several of them) but through the use of carefully-filled-out citation templates (something of a rarity in itself). Such relevance and care deserve more than just being swept away. The entries are somewhat lacking in fuller explanation and could be better grouped according to cause (e.g. stoppages due to repairs vs. snowfall vs. ceremonial funerals vs. air raids, etc.); but the list is certainly relevant and well sourced and should be kept, subject to judicious modification. Dhtwiki (talk) 18:58, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

3D Image

I've removed the 3D image from the article - while interesting, I'm not sure it contributes to our readers understanding the building. BilledMammal (talk) 01:45, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree; pointless when the building is identical on all four sides. Firebrace (talk) 10:44, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Name of tower more relevant than name of bell

Big Ben is far more commonly used to refer to the Tower than the bell, the fact that it is also used to refer to the bell can definitely be mentioned, however the name of the tower should be the first sentence not the name of the bell. The tower being Big Ben is more relevant than the Bell, especially since this is the page for the tower, not the bell. And such this name of the tower should be the first sentence. Dhtwiki Thank you for fixing the reference, but I kindly ask you to discuss with me the issue before reverting my edit. Just your average wikipedian (talk) 06:31, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

But BB isn't the name for the tower, although some might think it is. Your version of the start was very confusing, & I have reverted. You say "this is the page for the tower, not the bell" - clearly it's the page for both. Johnbod (talk) 13:59, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Agree with revert. Current description corrects misconception and then clarifies all in first sentence. Edit by Just your average wikipedian confused the description. The article is, as Johnbod says, about both the bell and tower and how the generic name 'Big Ben' has, over time, been used for both in common usage but isn't correct. Robynthehode (talk) 19:24, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Johnbod In fact Big Ben is not the official name of the tower OR the bell. with both names being unofficial what differentiates them is the prevalence of their use, and Big Ben is far more commonly used to refer to the tower. This is the page about the tower far more than anything else, with the main picture being the tower, and the vast majority of the content of the page being about the tower, the great bell only having a small subsection. I am very happy for you to reword my beginning sentence to be less confusing if you think it is such. My grievance only lies with the bell being the topic of the very first sentence, when really the first sentence should mention the tower, which the name Big Ben (which is a nickname in both cases) is almost always used to refer to. And the bell can definitely be mentioned in the following sentences. Hello Robynthehode, I don't believe there is any misconception, maybe if people called the tower "the great bell" then it would be. Just your average wikipedian (talk) 09:06, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

The misconception I referred to was that the tower is called 'Big Ben' but is, instead, the nickname for the great bell. So you have misunderstood my comment. You are incorrect to say the first sentence's topic is only the bell where in fact the bell is in the lead clause only and the clock and tower are clearly mentioned in the final clause. If an alternative where these two clauses were swapped was suggested I (after reviewing it) would possibly find that alternative acceptable. But the first sentence should refer to both the bell (the real Big Ben) and the tower (what Big Ben has come to refer to in many people's understanding). If I have time I might suggest an alternative but not at the moment. Robynthehode (talk) 19:19, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

There's no misconception; the tower is called Big Ben because that's what everyone calls it. Big Ben isn't the actual name of the bell either (Great Bell), so who cares? Those tiresome people who always try to sound clever by going "heh, well aCsHuAlLy the bell is called Big Ben!" are wrong too. Firebrace (talk) 19:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Firebrace, aren't you confusing "Great Bell" with "Great Clock" here? Any sources for "Great Bell"? Johnbod (talk) 04:14, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Robynthehode, I really must disagree with you saying, quote "the bell (the real Big Ben)" .Big Ben in the nickname for the bell, AND and nickname for the tower, there is no such thing as an official nickname, so really if you want to be pedantic there is no such thing as the real Big Ben. I would definitely be agreeing with you if the official name of the bell was Big Ben however it is not. In this case there really isn't a "well aCsHuAlLy" situation, as Firebrace has comically put it, because both names are nicknames. Since both the tower and the bell have big ben as a nickname then deciding on which is more relevant comes from other measures, Big Ben is far more commonly used for the tower. You could argue on the case that the bell had the nickname first, however the English language (and most languages really) is not stagnant, it changes, just because something was correct or not correct in common use in the past doesn't keep it that way for all eternity. Even the favorite word of this discussion "nickname" comes from misspelling "an ekename" as "a nekename" but we don't insist it should be "an ekename" because really the age of a word or phase has no jurisdiction on whether is should still be said in the modern day. If almost everyone calls a certain tower "Big Ben" then really the name of that tower is Big Ben, just like how if almost everyone says "nickname" then that is the correct word.

Here below is the beginning paragraph from my previous edit, it would be greatly appreciated if you could change the grammar to your liking to make the sentences more clear.

Big Ben is the name frequently used for clock tower at the north end of the Palace of Westminster in London, England. The name Big Ben originated as the nickname for the Great Bell of the striking clock but the name has now commonly been extended to the clock and clock tower. The official name of the tower was originally the Clock Tower, but it was renamed Elizabeth Tower in 2012, to mark the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II. Just your average wikipedian (talk) 02:36, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Rather than the bandying opinions - mine as well as other editors. I thought I'd briefly check sources - which we should be following. The UK government website here [1] states the tower's name as 'Elizabeth Tower', the clock as 'the Great Clock' and the main bell as 'Big Ben'. I couldn't find any reference where the name of either tower, clock or main bell was stated as being 'nicknamed' Big Ben. My point re 'a misconception' is that there is one from the point of view of social history. The same website shows that when cast the bell was called Big Ben, the tower was either the clock tower or St Stephen's tower and the clock was the Great Clock. Only over time has the tower, bell and clock become commonly termed as Big Ben and even now the tower is officially called 'Elizabeth Tower'. And no Firebrace not everyone calls the tower 'Big Ben' It is tiresome when someone tries to speak for everyone (you are also wrong that the great bell isn't called Big Ben when a contemporary source on the same website names it as 'Big Ben'). The name 'Big Ben' has commonly (but not exclusively) become the terminoloy used for the tower, the clock and (the origin of the term) the bell. So here's a suggestion based on my review of (some) sources and my rereading of Just your average wikipedian's text 'Big Ben is the name commonly used for the clock tower at the north end of the Palace of Westminster in London, England. The name Big Ben originated from the name of the Great Bell of the striking clock but in common usage has now been extended to the clock and clock tower. The official name of the tower was originally the Clock Tower, but it was renamed Elizabeth Tower in 2012, to mark the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II Robynthehode (talk) 16:50, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Again, any sources for "Great Bell"? The Whitechapel page in note 1 certainly doesn't provide one - only for "great bell", which the largest of any set would be called, or a large single one in the Buddhist style. Great Bell has redirected here since 2020, but I don't think it should - it doesn't make List of heaviest bells (maybe a disam page). This bit should be removed. Johnbod (talk) 04:25, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Chris McKay uses "Big Ben" and "Great Bell" (as a proper noun) interchangeably, e.g.:

"Another is the ball from the clapper that was installed inside Big Ben. No provision was ever made to swing the Great Bell or to pull the clapper, so the clapper was removed in 1956 when the bell hangings were refurbished."

—McKay, Chris (2010). Big Ben: the Great Clock and the Bells at the Palace of Westminster. p. 8

Other sources:

"In August 1856, the great bell was cast at Warner's Norton Foundry, where it acquired the nickname 'Big Ben' probably after Sir Benjamin Hall, the First Commissioner."

—Cannadine, David (2000). The Houses of Parliament: History, Art, Architecture. p. 132

"The first great bell, called familiarly "Big Ben," from Sir Benjamin Hall, the late First Commissioner of Works, was broken by its own hammer, while temporarily suspended in a timber framework at the foot of the Tower for experiments on its sound and quality. A second Great Bell has, however, been now cast from a design supplied by..."

—HM Government (1859). The New Palace of Westminster. pp. 18–19

Firebrace (talk) 18:45, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Ok, but I still don't think Great Bell should redirect here - it's hardly the common name & there are many others. I think I'll redirect it to the list, pending a better destination; if anyone wants to start a discussion (RedsFD), please do. Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

@user: Robynthehode you wrote above at 6:50, 7 May "The UK government website here [2] states the tower's name as 'Elizabeth Tower', the clock as 'the Great Clock' and the main bell as 'Big Ben'. I couldn't find any reference where the name of either tower, clock or main bell was stated as being 'nicknamed' Big Ben." I looked at the same site (www.parliament.uk not gov.uk) and here is a quote from that site:

Big Ben undergoes the biggest conservation in its history Affectionately known around the world as Big Ben and shrouded in scaffolding since 2017, the Elizabeth Tower is being repaired from the gilt cross and orb at its tip, to the bottom of its 334-step staircase.
— ("Conservation of Elizabeth Tower and Big Ben". parliament.uk/about/living-heritage.)

— PBS (talk) 15:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Name change

This article has become confused. It was originally about the building, the Clock Tower, which later became the Elizabeth Tower. The name is formally the Elizabeth Tower, and these days it is referred to as that not Big Ben unless by tourists. We have just had this name and the distinction between the tower and the bell drummed into our skulls a thousand times during the Queen's funeral. Wikipedia should be factually correct at least and not a vehicle for perpetuating an error. I am aware of the WP naming conventions but that is trumped when there is actual documentary evidence of a name. I am not sure what the solution is, but I am currently feeling that there needs to be two separate articles; The Elizabeth Tower, and Big Ben, one about the building, the other about the bell with a "for the bell see Big Ben and a "for the bell tower see Elizabeth Tower" on the appropriate pages. I note that there was a non-consensus name change a while back from Elizabeth Tower (Big Ben) and that the corruption seems to stem from that. Ex nihil ^(talk) 16:00, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Was this article ever titled the "Clock Tower"? "Big Ben" is succinct, and I don't remember the more long-winded "Elizabeth Tower" being spoken of during the funeral. Certainly, BBC announcers do refer to "Big Ben" on occasion. The building itself serves little purpose other than being a perch for the clock and its chimes, and I don't see that a separate article for it is needed. Dhtwiki (talk) 19:18, 20 September 2022 (UTC) (edited 19:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC))