Talk:British Empire/Archive 18

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Not of featured article quality.

Here are some of the featured article criteria this article doesn't fulfill:

1b. comprehensive

it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context

The article leaves out huge amounts of detail. Despite its 11,000 words, it doesn't even discuss the Famines of India. It mentions that they happened in a single paragraph. But no discussion takes place about their cause and the natural vs man-made factors involved. The Belgian Congo deaths of 10 million or so people are well documented in that article. Similar mass killings by the British Empire are not mentioned at all. There should be an entire section discussing timeline of major famines in India during British rule (killing 29 million by one estimate) and other similar events throughout the Empire. Whether this particular estimate is accurate is moot. There should be a discussion of the estimates in the literature and what the consensus is for the cause and total deaths.

The ideology of the empire is not discussed. Racism is not mentioned once. The idea of the White Man's burden is not mentioned once. There is no mention of converting the heathens to Christianity. All of these were fashionable opinions at various points in time. It would be interesting to have a section explaining when and why these views were popular. The colonies where white British settlers totally exterminated and replaced the natives were given political power long before colonies where the people were non-white. This part of history should also be discussed.

Expansionist and racial policy was a major part of the British Empire throughout its entire history. An article about the British Empire that doesn't discuss who was privileged and who was persecuted, when, and why is not complete. There is a lot of literature debating this subject. The Empire also participated in ethnic cleansing throughout its existence, and has been accused of several genocides. Why isn't it summarized? We don't have to take a one sided view, but we do have to mention it.

Finally, it would also be worthwhile having a section to discuss how the article got into its current state. Some historians are extremely critical of the Empire, such as Henry Reynolds's critique of the peaceful settlement myth. Meanwhile "historians" like David Armitage have somehow convinced themselves that invading foreign countries was a selfless and benevolent exercise done for the sake of the "freedom" of those foreigners. Both of these views need to be discussed, and the latter view needs to be soundly rejected as nonsense as it already is by the majority of historians.===

1c. well-researched

it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate

This article does not discuss most of the literature about the British Empire. It surveys only a small window the literature and favors the view of a minority of scholars. It fails to discuss entire events that are considered the most important aspects of British Empire history by academics.

1d. neutral

it presents views fairly and without bias

The gaps in the articles coverage are not random. They are one-sided. The gaps are all things that could be considered negatives of the Empire.

The article needs to be completely rewritten in order to be of featured article quality. Most of the historical narrative can be moved to another article. Then several more sections like I've outlined need to be added.--Quality posts here (talk) 18:54, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

This article does not cover every single event in every corner of the world during the period it relates to; it is not an article on famine in India; it is not an article on racism; and it is not an article on historiography. Wikipedia has articles on all of those things (although the quality of some leaves a lot to be desired). You say it does not discuss most of the literature about the British Empire. How many books have been written about this subject over the years? How many journal articles? Of course it doesn't cover them all but it does represent a fair selection of balanced sources (i.e. not those presenting polarised opinions). And finally you say you want to take out the historical narrative and add in particular opinions on particular episodes that you feel are important. Have you considered that you might be on the wrong website? You are proposing replacing verifiable, neutral information with opinion pieces. Not how Wikipedia works. Wiki-Ed (talk) 22:06, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Exactly. Articles can't be too long or they become unreadable. The article should be a high-level summary of the British Empire, going into detail only about major points. That's not how the article is now. It fails to discuss the most major actions of the British Empire. The Indian famines were the most notable thing the British Empire did in its entire existence, yet they don't even get their own section. Meanwhile "rivalry with the Netherlands in Asia" somehow gets its own section. It's totally false to claim this article presents a fair selection of balanced sources. The great thing about Wikipedia is we can work together to make sure the information added isn't an opinion piece. Wikipedia doesn't present opinions. Articles don't say anything about good or bad morality. They simply presents the facts of what happened (perhaps including the fact that some people consider them morally good or bad), and where the facts are unclear it summarizes the academic debate. That's what this article should do. Instead, it fails to present any facts or debate about controversial events in order to portray a falsely positive version of the British Empire.--Quality posts here (talk) 18:24, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

"The most major actions of the British Empire" - says who? That is your opinion. It is not a view reflected by the majority of reliable sources. Famine in India is (rightly) treated as footnote - something that happened during the same period/space as the British Empire, but not a defining characteristic nor something which made a significant differences to its evolution as a political entity. Presenting facts out of context is the same as expressing a non-neutral opinion in a neutral space - it lends weight to something that ought not to have it. Rivalry with the Netherlands in Asia, on the other hand, directly affected how the BE took shape and rightly deserves a (small) section outlining the consequences.Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:54, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

More people fell victim to the British India famines during Ghandi's lifetime than to the Nazis. Here are two broadsheet British newspapers backing me up on that: The Independent and The Guardian. These articles compare people who don't believe it to holocaust and the Armenian genocide denial. If you look at the Ottoman Empire article, you'll see its atrocities are mentioned right in the introduction. Shouldn't the British Empire's also be there, considering it managed crimes of a greater magnitude? I particularly like this article, which ends "As evidence from the manufactured Indian famines of the 1870s and from the treatment of other colonies accumulates, British imperialism emerges as no better and in some cases even worse than the imperialism practised by other nations. Yet the myth of the civilising mission remains untroubled by the evidence". Wikipedia's British Empire article is shamelessly spreading that myth despite being a "featured article" and must be changed at once.

Nobel-prize winner Amartya Sen has done quite a bit of work around the economics of the Indian famines. He blames the 18th century Bengal famine on the British in this article, "in a century that had seen no famine in the region before the rule of the East India Company began".--Quality posts here (talk) 23:21, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

This article is not a collection of factoids that you would "like" to see. Sources which use language like "manufactured famines" are not neutral, so if they are mentioned they have to be balanced; the article would then go off on a tangent about a niche issue. If it was so important that it defined the subject then it would feature more prominently in published sources that cover the whole subject. The fact that it doesn't should tell you something. What do the sources/articlese which you want to place undue weight on say about exploration, colonisation in America, conquest in Africa, or rivalry/war with other countries/empires? Nothing perhaps? They're too narrow for this subject. Wiki-Ed (talk) 00:13, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

But it does seem to be a collection of factoids that you would like to see. Manufactured famines are real things. The Russians inflicted one on Ukraine, and the Germans created another in the Netherlands. The British Empire committed several of those. Amartya Sen, who covers British Empire famines, argues that every famine since 1000 AD has been manufactured. By his reasoning every famine in the British Empire was manufactured. The Great Bengal famine of 1770 is perhaps the most obvious example of such a manufactured famine. The article fails to discuss this despite it being considered the most notable thing about the Empire by several authors.

This isn't an an article about Sen's views, and from what you've said, I can't imagine that those views would sit well in any historical article. You should also note that this article doesn't cover a number of events that "several authors" might consider to be notable. It is an overview and takes its steer from historians who write overviews, not from single-issue campaigners with a narrow focus on particular events/themes. Wiki-Ed (talk) 12:34, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

You "can't imagine", and yet it's true. Sen is a Nobel prize winning economist and his work on Indian famines is highly respected. He is literally the most highly regarded author this article will cover if I cite him.--Quality posts here (talk) 15:25, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. If a writer sets out a particular view that places him or her at one end of a spectrum s/he will not be treated as neutral, regardless of how highly they are thought of within a like-minded peer group. The most important principle here is neutrality and weighting. The question is 'do historians (not economists) treat famine in India as a (or the) major theme of the British Empire?' The answer is no, so we don't go into detail on that issue. We give it equal weighting with lots of other important things that happened across the world over a period of 500 years. If this was an article on agriculture in India, government in India, the history of India (etc.) then it might be a different answer. Wiki-Ed (talk) 18:25, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Inspired by the Norman conquest of England article, which is also featured, I am going to add two new sections to this article: "Historiography" and "Consequences". I will also try my hand at a section on Indian famines. I am sure they will improve the article.--Quality posts here (talk) 04:31, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

This article doesn't need any of those things. As we have pointed out already, there is an article on the Historiography of the British Empire. (It's currently in poor shape because one editor has taken it upon himself to use it - as you seem to be proposing - as a soap box to push his personal interpretation of the British Empire - all the bits that wouldn't make the cut here - rather than a balanced overview of historiograpical issues.) There is already an article on Famine in India. And there is already a section on the Legacy of the British Empire in this article. So, I would discourage you from bothering, but if you want to propose new text to this Featured Article then please test it on the talk page first. Wiki-Ed (talk) 12:34, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

The "Legacy" section has 706 words, only 21 of which are about the negative legacy of the Empire and 685 on the things that make elderly British people happy. That isn't neutral. This is because this page is heavily impacted by Wikipedia's systemic bias in favour of the worldview of middle class English speakers at the cost of everyone else. The introduce bias where they edit by what they chose to include and what they chose to omit. The British Empire article is ripe for this because a large section of the British population loves the idea that their ancestors went out and lovingly and selflessly conquered and killed foreigners in order to help those foreigners. In an effort to attract uninvolved editors to this debate and see what they think, I am adding an NPOV tag to the page. After I draft those sections I will be bold and add them. Don't worry, there may have been quality problems when others previously tried to make such changes, but I intend them to be of a very high standard.--Quality posts here (talk) 15:15, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Speaking of bias might be the above statement that "The Belgian Congo deaths of 10 million or so people are well documented", given that demographic studies on the estimated population of Central Africa at the time would give a population of 4 million at the most for the Belgian Congo. Expect the same "lack" of bias regarding any coverage of alleged British mass murders when the article will be "completely rewritten".--Lubiesque (talk) 02:29, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

I got that figure from the Wikipedia article about it, which seems to be well sourced. It's obvious why the British Empire article is in such bad shape when an editor watching it presents such denialism.--Quality posts here (talk) 18:22, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Quality posts here. This is an overview article, written in summary style. A mention of the Famines of India is appropriate; an in-depth discussion of "their cause and the natural vs man-made factors involved" is better suited to a more specific daughter article. You're welcome to suggest edits, sources, topics that should be mentioned, but please keep that in mind as you do so. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:34, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

It isn't an overview article because it fails to give an overview of the British Empire. It's a biased propaganda piece because it simply omits the unpopular events in the British Empire's history. If you go to the Nazi Germany article you'll see an entire section devoted to its politics, and another section devoted to its racial policy. That could be a good way to introduce the British Empire's crimes into this article, because they are currently not present. It's laughable the article can have such a gaping hole and be considered featured. We hear that at its height it controlled "412 million people, 23% of the world population at the time,[2] and by 1920 it covered 35,500,000 km2 (13,700,000 sq mi),[3] 24% of the Earth's total land area". Yet there is no mention of how many aggressive wars it started or in what year its highest death rate was achieved. That isn't an overview.--Quality posts here (talk) 23:06, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Certainly is an overview that a lot of editors have spent a long time here presenting a balanced overview of the British Empire so I dont think adding unblanced tabloid "year in which its highest death rate was achieved" is not something a good neutral encyclopedia does, we dont list all the lifes saved in India by the flood defences or most of the other things empire did to improve stuff over the few hundred years it existed. We have loads of sub-articles that deal with some of the detail you expect here, so as User:Nikkimaria has just said you are welcome to make suggestions and provide sources for discussion here but to condem the whole article is probably a bit unfair to previous editors who have worked hard to get it to featured article status. MilborneOne (talk) 23:31, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Let's understand why we disagree about the article's neutrality

As far as I can tell, we are not in dispute over the facts of the British Empire. Everything either side proposes should be in the article is a historical fact supported by the majority of scholars. Wiki-Ed has called several sources I mentioned not-neutral. Non-neutral sources are acceptable for use on Wikipedia.

The main dispute seems to be around what proportion of the article should be devoted to each aspect of the British Empire. I believe that a Historiography section is certainly necessary to describe how coverage of the British Empire has changed in the literature. Since the late 20th century it has become much more critical, and there are a few notable historiographer articles on this subject. The "Legacy" section is totally biased, as I mentioned above, with only 21 words for the negative aspects of the Empire and 685 for what make elderly British people happy. I intend to rewrite it soon

Finally, I intend to make some changes to the narrative of the article, giving some more weight to things like the Indian famines. I am sure you will dispute these edits when I make them, but I am convinced that it will be a more balanced presentation of work about the British Empire. I am convinced of this because an entire section of the literature about racism, the white man's burden and how it impacted the former colonies has been completely excluded when it should be given its fair proportion of the article's words. There has been previous discussions about this: Talk:British_Empire/Archive_14#Racism.3F.--Quality posts here (talk) 15:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

I certainly think that with comments like what make elderly British people happy suggests a non-neutral point of view and perhaps not the best way to get other editors to respond kindly. Re-writing large sections without some agreement here is not the way to build an encyclopedia. As already suggested you are welcome to make suggestions and improvements rather than I dont like any of this so we need to replace it all. Also we have no requirement to achieve a 50/50 balance between good and bad but a balance as shown across reliable sources across the four hundred-odd years covered. So I would suggest take small steps and get the agreement or otherwise of others, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 16:34, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Quality posts here, all your statements indicate that you want to take a particular perspective on this. The questions you raise have been extensively discussed before. If you make a case for changes and you don't get agreement then you can call an RfC. But tagging an article when you are the only one advocating change, on a well reviewed and discussed article is disruptive. ----Snowded ^TALK 17:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm tempted to remove it right away but let's see if he can produce quality posts. In the discussion he references the consensus was against making changes of the sort he described, for the very same reasons we have discussed above. However, the previous discussion allowed that there might be scope for a few single-sentence additions. Some of these appear to have been made at that time, but there might still be more that could be said (e.g. about famines to the effect that this was still a problem well into the 20th century). User Quality Posts Here should, I hope, be aware that s/he is going against consensus, but at least he is consulting before changing, so I'll assume good faith for now. (I wish other editors with a penchant for tinkering would take a similar approach.) However, I think it is worth drawing his attention to the purpose of this article - it one of only a thousand Level 3 overview articles. It is written in a narrative style: it does not go into detail on any one event, nor does it analyse - using anachronistic values (e.g. modern views of racism) - what happened. That is the purpose of wikilinking out to other articles. A single sentence here or there should be sufficient (if there is actually a problem). By all means test it, but don't expect to gain consensus for masses of new text. Wiki-Ed (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

I've waited to see what User:QPH comes up with. The draft on his user page currently consists of a few paragraphs of poorly written commentary, mis-attributed quotations, statistical factoids (casualty counts etc.) and some he said/she said material. It is either irrelevant, inappropriate or unbalanced (or all of the above). This appears to be another case of someone just not liking the neutral balance of the article and looking for a soap box. That is not sufficient justification for a POV tag so I've removed it. Wiki-Ed (talk) 16:27, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

QPH isn't alone in believing there are serious problems with the tone of this article. Alfie Gandon (talk) 17:55, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

I doubt they are "serious problems" looking at all the work and discussion that has been done before but you need to detail what you dont like in small chunks so it can be discussed, nobody is against discussion but to rubbish the whole article makes it difficult to work out what you actually dont like. Please bear in mind that this is an overview and as others have said more detailed information is present in other articles for readers that want to know more. MilborneOne (talk) 18:03, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I remind you I already have detailed much of what I don't like into small chunks, all over this talk page. You're wrong in saying "nobody is against discussion", on the contrary, I find some proprietorial editors here are very much against it. I'm not rubbishing the whole article, again on the contrary most of it is of good quality and the changes I've made and tried to make are relatively minor. Whitewashing is no more tolerable in overviews than anywhere else, so that's no excuse. Alfie Gandon (talk) 16:18, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

If we were against discussion then we wouldn't be talking to you at all. Most of the changes you've tried (and failed) to make are factually wrong, poorly thought through, inappropriate and/or do not reflect the views expressed in the cited sources. But it is your attempts to 'correct' supposed 'whitewashing' that introduces POV into the article. That is the main reason you are continually reverted. Wiki-Ed (talk) 16:27, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

As I've repeatedly pointed out, you're wrong on all counts. While there is much that is good, there's far too much content on this page that is factually wrong, poorly thought through, inappropriate and/or does not reflect the views expressed in the cited sources. Also, I find it more than a little suspicious when you refer to your tag-team as "we", almost as if you co-ordinate your reverts. I've suspected this for a while. Have you let the mask slip? Alfie Gandon (talk) 16:55, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Wrong on all counts? If that were so then other editors would be correcting me, not you. I should also point out that said editors (including me) don't always see eye to eye. If, despite that, we're all reverting your edits (without any co-ordination) that should tell you something about the standard of your contributions. Wiki-Ed (talk) 19:07, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

You're making a lot of leaps there. Far from "all" editors reverting my edits, your tag-team system seems to have stalled recently. Alfie Gandon (talk) 19:16, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't look like they coordinate anything. Just like you, Bertdrunk and I happen to be on the same side in the NPOV dispute, but we have never discussed anything with each other.--Quality posts here (talk) 02:10, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I didn't say they coordinated, and unlike these two, we three have had a short relationship. Alfie Gandon (talk) 02:26, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Neutrality tag

In the last few days three different editors (Alfie Gandon, Bertdrunk and I) have added an NPOV warning template to the top of this article. Each time it was removed by the watchers of this page claiming that there is no neutrality dispute. If that's the case, then why are almost all the sections on this talk page about the NPOV dispute?

I've already promised I will take action regarding this dispute by inserting my proposed changes. You can see I've already started work on new sections for this article on my userpage (I encourage all watchers of this page to take a look). If you revert them, which I assume you will, we can discuss the changes further here. If we can't agree on anything during that discussion, we will have a featured article review. That's how the dispute will be solved. Right now it's still ongoing though, which is why the NPOV tag must remain. I will re-add the tag as soon as the page protection ends on 7 January.--Quality posts here (talk) 02:07, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

You haven't argued a case for the NPOV template and flyby tagging is not encouraged. I can see some dissatisfaction that edits to a stable article have been reverted but I don't see any attempt by those inserting the tag to argue their case. As another editor said in their edit summary you don't take an article every time there is a disagreement. You need to develop an argument on the talk page and if necessary call an RfC to engage other editors ----Snowded ^TALK 07:04, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

This entire section argues the case for an NPOV tag. Whether you agree there is a case isn't important. The fact that three different editors have written thousands of words about NPOV problems on the talk page means the tag is appropriate. I will re-add it when the page becomes unprotected again.

I took at look at your user page and suggest (i) you use a sandbox for drafts (ii) you read WP:RS, most the text you are creating is based on primary sources and would be considered synthesis and/or original research. I think there is a case to expand or modify the article's treatment of indigenous issues - but it needs third party sourcing and it has to be proportional to a summary article. ----Snowded ^TALK 07:10, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Yup. One bit that is crying out for indigenous attention is the paragraph that ends "The American colonies were less financially successful than those of the Caribbean, but had large areas of good agricultural land and attracted far larger numbers of English emigrants who preferred their temperate climates." A sentence or two with suitable links (no more. because as Snowded says, it's a summary article) that discusses the fact that the land in question was already inhabited by native American tribes. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 22:46, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

In fact, my hidden comment is still in there in the article from 2009(?) suggesting something be added! The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 22:48, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I haven't used a single primary source. I keep hearing this is a summary article, yet it spends an entire paragraph talking about cricket, measurements and left side driving, but does not mention the word "genocide" once. It's simply false to claim an accurate summary would do that. That paragraph ought to be removed and several paragraphs about genocide inserted--Quality posts here (talk) 08:11, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Having seen what was written on Genocide of indigenous peoples, which is definitely an example of POV writing, we certainly do not need an agenda dictated section adding to this article. I've tagged that section for POV and kicked off a discussion on the talk page there. WCM_email 08:41, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Well I will be adding a section regarding the British Empire's crimes as soon as I have completed it, which will hopefully be in the next few days. That this article mentions the spread of cricket but not that the Aboriginal population of Australia declined 84% after British arrival is evidence of extreme nationalistic bias in this article.--Quality posts here (talk) 10:00, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm sure what you meant to say is that you will be consulting with other editors to establish whether any of the material you've been cherry picking would be suitable for inclusion. At the moment I think you're a long way off and I reinforce Snowded's points above. Even before we get to the question of neutrality, there are problems with your use of reliable sources and synthesis. For example, I see that you are still attributing (in at least two places) comments which are not reflected in the sources you're using - and I should note it has taken me some time to establish that is the case because you're not making specific references, just pointing readers towards journal articles or websites. That will not meet the standard for verifiability. Stylistically your approach seems to be 'he said this' 'she said that' etc. The rest of the article doesn't do that - for good reason - it's an indicator that the topic is contentious and that experts have different views. If you include one side of an argument then you had to include another; you don't seem to be proposing to do that and, in any case, to do so would inflate this article considerably, which won't work at this level. Once again, I would suggest you focus your effort on one or two neutral, verifiable sentences; not whole paragraphs. I can't speak for other editors, but I would imagine we, as a group, would be much more inclined to help you develop text if you do keep it focused. Wiki-Ed (talk) 12:44, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

The British Empire's crimes no less! Personally, I think cricket is a crime against humanity, it's so bloody boring. But what about the Native American tribes that slaughtered babies and children in British settlements in America, who were not there by their own volition, was that a crime? Or how about the Black Hole of Calcutta? Was that a crime? What about indigenous peoples that sided with the British to get one up on their fellow indigenous enemies, were those crimes? Is suttee, that the British abolished, a crime? The Mughals that took over India by force, whose atrocities have been lost in the depths of time, did they commit a crime? African rulers who colluded in the selling of their own peoples to European slavers, a crime? [[Quality posts here]] you're judging another time by the moral standards of today. And note, the article does not say whether cricket is a good or a bad thing, it just says it. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 23:26, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Note, the stuff being added at Genocide of indigenous peoples has been awful examples of writing. Its a classic example of WP:OR and WP:SYN, with the writer claiming that simply being sourced means its not OR, whereas he's taken multiple author's opinions, presented them as fact and synthesised his own conclusion asserting this to "sourced" eg [1]. His use of WP:SPS and attributing allegedly unpublished material cited by another author as the opinion of the supposed originator is also problematic. Luckily most of the more egregious examples have been moderated by other editors but if thats an example of his best work, I would suggest a change of username. WCM_email 08:37, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

I have reinserted the NPOV tag at the top of the article. Please do not remove it. Soon enough I will be adding my proposed new sections that cover what I previously argued has been left out.--Quality posts here (talk) 19:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

If you keep doing that the article will be locked again and/or you'll be blocked. I see from your user page that you're still quite a long way from writing text that could find its way on to Wikipedia. Might I suggest that by using narrow web-based journal articles as your sources you are forcing yourself to synthesise material; Wikipedia has a strict policy of no original research so that won't work. While I can't promise that any such material actually exists, you are more likely to find neutral wording in historical books that address the breadth of the subject of this article, not in specialist publications on niche topics. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:10, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

"that discusses the fact that the land in question was already inhabited by native American tribes." We don't need this because most any European countries that took over other lands in Africa, America, Asia, etc., were settling or at least governing lands that were already inhabited. It's just extra words in an already-long article. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 06:59, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps we can have a summery here of what the NPOV issues are?Slatersteven (talk) 13:39, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

" ... were settling or at least governing lands that were already inhabited..." - I think you'll find that the British settlers/colonists in fact actually bought the land off the indigenous Americans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.173.113 (talk) 13:50, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

NPOV noticeboard

A post has been made regarding the NPOV tag at the NPOV noticeboard.--Quality posts here (talk) 00:07, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

New "settler colonialism" section

I have added a proposed new subsection on settler colonialism to the Legacy section. Tell me what you think of it. I'm certainly accepting of the idea that it needs improvement. I think the important part is the figures for indigenous population decline. That is definitely a major legacy of the British Empire that ought to be discussed. The rest of the section is up for debate. I have also put the rest of the Legacy section into two new subsections: "Culture" and "Politics".--Quality posts here (talk) 17:59, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

This could be shortened to

"One other aspect was the depopulation of native populations and the cultural assimilation of many of the remainder".18:03, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

What you did was largely synthesis of original sources based on a particular perspective. It was also an inappropriate level of detail for a summary article. You have already had this feedback so changing the main article without first getting agreement on the talk page is disruptive. I think there is an agreement in principle to possibly adding one or two well sourced sentences on this but no more. So please propose something we can look at. ----Snowded ^TALK 19:02, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

And here's the crux of our disagreement. How is it neutral to have 4 paragraphs on the cultural impact of the Empire, but only 2 sentences on its destruction of indigenous populations?

I don't believe there is any synthesis or primary sources in my addition. But, I am a human and it's possible I am incorrect. Please quote those sentences here for me.--Quality posts here (talk) 19:19, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Because we have a whole article on the latter.Slatersteven (talk) 19:21, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

And where can I find that? If we do, that's extra evidence we ought to have a section here, and use the main article template to link to it.--Quality posts here (talk) 19:26, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry I meant we have an article on imperial genocides that includes the section you linked to, and that can be expanded and them linked to from here.Slatersteven (talk) 19:28, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

To illustrate why this is a problem, synthesis allows factual errors to creep in. So, for example: rights were not denied to native Americans - that they were treated equally by the Crown was one of the causes of the Revolutionary War; settler colonisation wasn't the only way disease spread from Europe to America - in Central America initial contact by Spanish conquistadors was enough to achieve this before any 'settlers' arrived; and the final quotation was not attributed to the British - this is misleading. Wiki-Ed (talk) 19:25, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

And there is some debate about the "deliberateness" of things like pox blankets.Slatersteven (talk) 19:28, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

The "Surviving indigenous groups continue to suffer from severe racially motivated discrimination in their the new colonial societies.[237]" sentence has a conclusion that is sourced. I did not make that conclusion myself. It is a conclusion made by a secondary source an not original research. Regarding disease we can clarify that the Canadian population decline figure is relative to pre-contact rather than pre-British colonialism clearing that up. We can remove "by the British" from that sentence and it still holds true, because earlier in that paper he argues that the British were one of the European empires that did that.

The technical debate around the writing isn't as important as the idea that we are giving too much coverage to Briain's cultural legacy compared to its legacy of settler colonialism: 4 paragraphs vs 2 sentences. What is your opinion of that?--Quality posts here (talk) 19:39, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

But not the only one, and this article is only about the British empire.Slatersteven (talk) 19:42, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

As to your amended comment. Balance the "benefits" with information about how the empire also destroyed much native culture (culture not lives). Point out how part of the empires legacy is that we outlawed Thugeee and Sutee and thus undermined the native culture (for example).Slatersteven (talk) 19:53, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

The whole formulation of the settler colonialism section is troubling. Most obviously, there is already a paragraph discussing population movements. Perhaps it could be expanded upon, but leaving such a thing unadjusted while creating partial duplication is a worrying sign that crafting good content is not the primary aim here. Other indications of the current writing reading like an attempt to make a point I hope do not have to be listed out here, given it manages to start before the actual text, with the main template.

Regarding the concept of the content itself, I am open to the idea of discussing a rebalancing of the legacy section. It was a longstanding global empire and the demographic changes it led to were huge, and no doubt played a role in the cultural legacies that currently appear prior to that in the article. If this is expanded however, it should not just focus on where white settlers moved to as the proposed addition did. The movement of non-white people made huge differences, not only to the UK but to other parts of the empire. And I am not saying this point needs to make it into the article, but this non-white settling created issues in many countries that last to this day as well. CMD (talk) 02:39, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

I think the problem with this is that it leads into cause and effect. To what extent was the British Empire - as an entity - responsible for these changes? (As opposed to activity by contemporaneous neighbouring empires or by natural disasters or by some other factor.) How many of these things would have happened anyway? How many were driven by government in London and how many by colonists acting on their own initiative? I'm not saying we shouldn't say something, but it's not easy. Wiki-Ed (talk) 22:11, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Large political entities have always in some way encouraged migration if only due to the simple fact that a political connection facilitates movement. That said, while obviously there was some passive movement not driven by those in government, there are plenty of examples of movement encouraged by the government. These can always be talked about, even if it doesn't cover the entirety of migration. CMD (talk) 02:16, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Proposed text

Main article: Genocide of indigenous peoples § British Empire

As well an many benefits the British empire also destroyed many native traditions and institutions. This included the wholesale conversion of natives to Christianity and the destruction of native religious institutions such as the cult of thugee. The Empire also forcibly stopped many native traditions it saw as unacceptable such Suttee and instituted laws preventing the inheritance of lands by adopted sons (in India). In addition it is charged with the slaughter of many native populations.

Of course this lacks sources, but they can be added this is just for discussion.Slatersteven (talk) 20:05, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Is this satirical? Wiki-Ed (talk) 22:11, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Not exactly, rather it is a demonstration of the problem, All of the above is a "legacy of empire" that was bitterly opposed at the time. So what do we even mean by "negative impacts", and why is only genocide the only concern?

In addition it is something that has not been done yet on this page, an offer of a text we can start to work with. So how about offering an alternative that covers the negative impact of cultural, linguistic and military imperialism by the British?Slatersteven (talk) 09:49, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Because I don't think it is possible to write a neutral form of words that would meet Wikipedia's standards of verifiability and also avoid synthesis. Your proposal, whether intentionally or not, fails all three principles. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:04, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

More then likely, which in a way is my point with the text above. It would be very hard to have a "criticism" section that would not end up breaching all kinds of rules. Moreover any such section is going to be rife with POV issues, synthesis and weasel wording. There is also the fact that simply put much of what the British destroyed (as I tried to demonstrate above) is hardly the sort of thing most people (even the natives) would like to see come back.

I agree any such text would be impossible to write (and keep stable).Slatersteven (talk) 21:18, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

"As well an many benefits the British empire also destroyed many native traditions and institutions. This included the wholesale conversion of natives to Christianity and the destruction of native religious institutions such as the cult of thugee. The Empire also forcibly stopped many native traditions it saw as unacceptable such Suttee and instituted laws preventing the inheritance of lands by adopted sons (in India) ... " - the British didn't forcibly convert 'natives' to Christianity, they converted of their own volition, missionaries being at no time endorsed by the British government, nor was conversion an official policy.

The Thuggee were thieves and murderers and are the source of the English word "Thug".

Suttee was banned because although supposed to be voluntary, many of the widows were forced by family pressures to submit to the tradition, and were visibly distressed by being burnt alive in public. Not a nice sight. In these circumstances it was effectively murder. Presumably if the current Indian government wishes to re-instate the custom/practice it is free to do so.

" ... laws preventing the inheritance of lands by adopted sons (in India) .. " - this was done because unscrupulous wives (some Indian men had more than one wife) would poison a wealthy husband after 'adopting' a very young boy who she could then control who she could then transfer ownership of the father's land to, thus cutting out his other legal offspring and relatives from the father's wealth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.100.238 (talk) 11:21, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

... and one may wonder why if the 'evil' British were so out to dominate and control their subject people they were the first to abolish slavery, and then to enforce it's abolition throughout their Empire, when other countries did little to do likewise in their own territories, or merely paid lip-service to doing so.

And not all native religions were Thuggee (as long as we accept the British empires version of it, and not everyone days claiming it was a British invention). Thus that one line will be a battlefield. That can be said for all but the outlawing of slavery (and one can argue they did not, they just changed it to indentured servitude).Slatersteven (talk) 14:39, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

So if the British Empire was never an 'official' legal entity that began and finished at a certain definable time....

...could this possibly be reflected in the introduction of the article itself? Something like, "The British Empire, though being a historic entity about which much can be said, was never legally defined, and as such never began or ended."

Why should one have to delve deep into the Talk Page to get this actually rather important bit of information? Isn't this why there's an article?

Seems valid.Slatersteven (talk) 15:29, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Except it would need a source. We can't prove a negative. Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

You can mention an absence, can't you? That a thing never began officially is "proven" by the absence of an official beginnings, is it not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.31.3.139 (talk) 20:43, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes and no, you need to establish weight, and that means RS say it. As an example The British empire was also never ruled by a small marmoset called Kevin, but we cannot include that. But as to a source [2].Slatersteven (talk) 09:50, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I do think we can use a modicum of common sense here. Wikipedia is surely not unfriendly to the application of simple logic in its edits. I'm sure Kevin the Marmoset would agree.Gazzster (talk) 02:40, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

To a degree, but what you think may be common sense someone else may not |(and many arguments are founded on just that). But as wew have an RS saying it was not a legal entity that should be enough.Slatersteven (talk) 09:49, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Infobox

British Empire
1707–1997
Top: Flag of the Kingdom of Great Britain (until 1801) Bottom: Flag of the United Kingdom (from 1801)
All areas of the world that were ever part of the British Empire. Current British Overseas Territories have their names underlined in red.
Status	Colonial empire
Capital	Administered from London, England, United Kingdom
Common languages	English (official) French, Hindi, Arabic, Afrikaans, indigenous local languages
Religion	Christianity (official) Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, various other religious beliefs
Government	Unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Monarch
• 1707 - 1714	Anne
• 1727 - 1760	George II
• 1760 - 1820	George III
• 1837 - 1901	Victoria
• 1910 - 1936	George V
• 1936 - 1952	George VI
• 1952 - 1997	Elizabeth II
Prime Minister
• 1721 - 1742	Sir Robert Walpole
• 1757 - 1762	Duke of Newcastle
• 1770 - 1782	Lord North
• 1783 - 1801	William Pitt the Younger
• 1945 - 1951	Clement Atlee
• 1997	Tony Blair
Legislature	Parliament
Historical era	Early Modern to Contemporary
• Anglo-Scottish Union	1707
• Seven Years' War	1763
• American Independence	1783
• Act of Union	1801
• Indian Rebellion	1857
• First Dominion created	1867
• Indian Independence	1947
• Transfer of Hong Kong	1997
Area
1920 (maximal extent)	35,500,000 km2 (13,700,000 sq mi)
Population
• 1920 (maximal extent)	425,000,000
Currency	Pound Sterling and various other currencies
Preceded by Succeeded by Kingdom of England Kingdom of Scotland Kingdom of Ireland British overseas territories Commonwealth of Nations

I've noticed, unlike most other empires, such as the Spanish Empire, French colonial empire and so forth, the British Empire is the only major one without a substantial infobox; and I can't really fathom a reason as to why, especially considering its historical importance. To rectify this, I propose we add the following. What are the thoughts of the community? (RockDrummerQ (talk) 13:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC))

For the record: The decision to have only the flag and the map in the infobox (as well as the comment in the infobox) dates back to November 2008. Pinging the users involved in the original discussion: @The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick, Daicaregos, Ghmyrtle, Wiki-Ed, Justin A Kuntz, Narson, and Rockybiggs:. TompaDompa (talk) 16:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Re-pinging renamed user: @Wee Curry Monster:. TompaDompa (talk) 16:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

One issue, was English the official language of the empire? It may have been the defacto language, but was it actually ever codified as such?Slatersteven (talk) 16:52, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Unlike other empires, the British Empire was not a legal entity and therefore did not have most of the things we put in an info-box. For example, it did not have an Emperor. It's not clear either when the Empire began or ended or its full extent. Hence your suggestion that we list Queen Anne as the first monarch and Tony Blair as the last PM is questionable. English was not codified as the official language because the Empire was not a legal entity with uniform laws. TFD (talk) 20:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Was the French colonial empire a legal entity? Was the Spanish Empire a legal entity? Was the Portuguese Empire a legal entity? They didn't have Emperors either. I find the requirement of emperor dubious at best, when we consider all of those empires have detailed infoboxes. The Swedish Empire also has a detailed infobox, but never had an Emperor. The "British" Empire surely began when the country Britain came into existence as a legal entity; 1707. Even in the main text of the Empire page, it states 1997 is considered by many to be the end of the empire when rule of Hong Kong was transferred to China. I don't see how those are issues. English was not codified; fair enough, but it was the de facto official language of the empire, in the same vein as the United States. I would argue there seems to be a precedent for it. (RockDrummerQ (talk) 20:51, 7 May 2017 (UTC))

But "the country Britain" is not the same as "the British Empire". And we don't operate on precedent in cases like this. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

The "British Empire" couldn't have existed before the country Britain existed; that's a simple logical conclusion. The precedent therefore highlights a gross inconsistency across Wikipedia articles. My points were also not addressed. Were any of the empires I listed legal entities? If not, why do they have detailed infoboxes and this one does not? (RockDrummerQ (talk) 21:48, 7 May 2017 (UTC))

The "British Empire" couldn't have existed before the country Britain existed; that's a simple logical conclusion. But it's no "simple logical conclusion" to say that the British Empire existed as soon as the country Britain existed, if we agree that the two are not the same thing (and if we don't agree on that, we have bigger issues). What you see as an inconsistency across articles is very much deliberate. "Other stuff exists" is not an argument in this case - and those examples you cite fall into some of the same traps your proposal does. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:52, 7 May 2017 (UTC)----

It is when you consider that before that, the colonies and lands under the rule or administration of the English crown were known as the English colonial empire, or as the English overseas possessions. Ergo, the empire became known as the British empire once Britain as a legal entity came into being. It's not simply that "other stuff exists", which is a gross oversimplification of the point I'm trying to make. The empires I listed were also not legal entities, yet they have detailed infoboxes. If we agree that the British Empire is also not a legal entity, then either it should also have an infobox, or all of the examples I listed should have their infoboxes removed. (RockDrummerQ (talk) 00:01, 8 May 2017 (UTC))

either it should also have an infobox, or all of the examples I listed should have their infoboxes removed is entirely an "other stuff exists" argument, because it's not based on the advantages or disadvantages of including one here. Each article is considered independently, without reference to what other articles do or don't do. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:43, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

This draft won't work because the dates are arguable at best and there was no official language or official religion everywhere in the Empire (though there were in selected parts of it). Also, parameters like language and religion lose their value when so many major languages were spoken in the Empire and every major religion is listed. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:12, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

This is of course (at least with regards to the Spanish and Portuguese empires) a big difference, Spanish was the official language, and Christianty was (at the end of a sword) the official religion. Hell in some places languages (such as French in Canada) were official.Slatersteven (talk) 09:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

The proposed template illustrates perfectly why we don't have an infobox - every single box is contentious/debatable. It is original research - something Wikipedia does not need. Wiki-Ed (talk) 12:11, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

So, if we ignore for the moment the excused inconsistencies across Wikipedia articles in the same vein (not particularly encyclopedic, is it?) it seems the only issues people seem to bring up is the official language and religion of the empire. So don't include those parameters? Or just include English and Christianity as de facto official religions; which they were. The British made active attempts to convert people to Christianity, and English largely became the language of official correspondence of the empire. Celia Homeford, you say the dates are "arguable at best" - why? Which dates? All of them? Why are they arguable? It seems to me that nobody is really making any effort at providing an efficient counter-argument, just stating points in a vacuum without much context or content to reinforce it. If you tell me why the dates are arguable, I'm willing to bet I can provide reasons why they are not arguable. Having points of contention so narrow seems like a rather flaccid reason to discard an entire infobox that could improve the information of the article. For example; capital, area, population and the preceded and succeeded by sections could all be included without contention. (RockDrummerQ (talk) 14:16, 8 May 2017 (UTC))

The start date is arguable because British colonisation of the Americas began before 1707, see the article sections 'Origins (1497-1583)' and '"First" British Empire (1583–1783)' and England and Scotland were united under one crown in 1603. The end date is arguable because there is no single agreed date. Decolonisation was a process that occurred over decades (see section 'Decolonisation and decline (1945–1997)') and the United Nations argue that it is still not complete because the remaining territories are not fully self-governing or represented in Parliament. We cannot claim that specific religions or languages were 'official' when there was no 'official' language or religion in the Empire as a whole. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:34, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

The start date is the date that Britain as a legal entity came into being. Thus, surely, there cannot have been a "BRITISH" Empire ruled by the British Crown before that? England and Scotland shared a crown, yes, but they were not a united legal entity yet. If we are willing to argue that, then would either 1497 or 1583 not be an acceptable starting date, given the history of colonisation? Is the end date really that arguable? The sources that reinforce that point are taken directly from the main article, that 1997 represents for many the end of the empire. The year of 1997 is also the date given in the same section you pointed me towards. As I have said repeatedly to the point of intense frustration and strain; Christianity and English were the de facto religion and language of the Empire.

Putting all that aside, I still see no arguments against why we cannot include more information in the infobox than is already there. If the dates are too contentious, then don't include them. Simply include those that are not contentious; the capital, area, population, and the preceded and succeeded by sections, none of which are contentious. (RockDrummerQ (talk) 15:10, 8 May 2017 (UTC))

If Great Britain came into being in 1707, then it ceased to exist in 1801, when the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland came into being, which itself ceased to exist when the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was formed. In fact none of these events had any effect on the administration of the Empire, except in Scotland and Ireland and no reliable sources use them to date the British Empire. TFD (talk) 19:09, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

This is rather tiresome, but if User:RockDrummerQ insists:

1. Dates - this interpretation is not consistent with the article itself (!) or the sources (there is no consistent position so we have taken an editorial decision to cast the net wide)
2. "Colonial empire" - not always and not applicable for all its territories.
3. Flag - I don't think it should even include this - it's not accurate for the majority of the period - but was outvoted. But two flags just looks crap.
4. Capital - there was no official capital and this implies a degree of co-ordination and control that did not exist until (at least) the introduction of the telegraph. Many territories were administered locally.
5. Language - no official language and no presumption or law stating that everyone should speak a single language. This could be a very long list.
6. Religion - no official religion - bit pointless to list all the religions practised in countries that formed part of the Empire at one time or another.
7. Government - the summary is inaccurate - it varied over time/territory. The lists are misleading - e.g. there were different prime ministers in different territories.
8. Legislature - again misleading - not applicable to the whole Empire or the whole period.
9. "Historical era" - what is this supposed to be? Who chooses the 'highlights'?
10. Area - Misleading to suggest that this is representative and the population density is absurdly misleading - good example of why an infobox is a bad idea. This is covered properly in the introduction.
11. Currency - not applicable to the whole Empire.
12. Preceded/succeeded by... and what about all the other countries? This would have to include all the countries that were part of the Empire. And no, they don't all fit into a neat category.

Historical articles are, by their nature, more open to interpretation than other subjects. We have made some editorial decisions (e.g. around periodisation), but these are explained properly in the narrative. Summarising these with an infobox removes the caveats and asserts things as bald facts; this is misleading. A lot of the other proposals can never be right; it's not worth trying to shoehorn factoids into arbitrarily designated boxes just to satisfy a strange penchant for organising complex information in simplistic form. Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:22, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I think its a waste of time and one editor "insisting" is not a good enough reason ----Snowded ^TALK 20:24, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree; it is tiresome when people don't bother to listen to the points you make. Since you've evidently not bothered to read the prior debate, or at least not bothered to represent it correctly, I'll address each point in turn:

1. Dates - Isn't it? 1997 is given as the end date IN the article itself. I have even conceded that the start date can be altered to reflect consistency with the article.
2. "Colonial empire" - So we don't include it. How catastrophic.
3. Flag - That's why I have put two flags. "But two flags just looks crap" is your personal, subjective opinion. I didn't realise articles were to be influenced by one editor's subjective view?
4. Capital - The empire was largely administered with direction from London. So you simply alter the wording to reflect this. It really is not difficult.
5. Language - If you had read what I had said, you would see I said English was the de facto language of the Empire. Which it was.
6. Religion - If you had read what I had said, you would see I said Christianity was the de facto religion of the Empire. Which it was.
7. Government - Would constitutional monarchy work better? It would cover the government which administered the empire.
8. Legislature - The British Parliament did make legislation to govern the whole empire.
9. "Historical era" - Have you not seen any other article on Wikipedia pertaining to an empire? The community debate and agree upon the highlights. If you are willing to debate the selected highlights, I'm more than willing to defend them.
10. Area - How is it misleading to suggest that it is representative? The Empire did cover that amount of area, as the introduction even reflects. The population density is worked out based on an average. How is that misleading? ALL population densities are an average.
11. Currency - That's why "various other currencies" are listed.
12. Preceded/succeeded by - Not entirely accurate. "Today part of" would be where all of those nations are listed. The structure of the empire was succeeded by the Commonwealth and British overseas territories. (RockDrummerQ (talk) 22:23, 8 May 2017 (UTC))

"The transfer of Hong Kong to China in 1997 marked for many the end of the British Empire.", no the article does not say 1997 was the end date, it says that some say it is.Slatersteven (talk) 09:15, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

That's not the only problem with what User:RockDrummerQ has said. Some basic mistakes make me wonder whether he's familiar with the subject. Reading the article would provide the answers, but I'll summarise below.

1. Capital - I'll concede that London was economically, socially and politically the capital, but the problem with stating this is that it suggests it was a central hub for a structured entity. While it may have been crucial, the empire itself was not "largely administered with direction from London" - the most economically valuable and populous part was administered - largely independently - from Delhi.
2. Language - English was not the de facto language of the Empire. Simple test: how many people lived in India (cf the English-speaking population of the Empire) at any one time?
3. Religion - Christianity was not the de facto religion of the Empire. (Test as above.)
4. Government - No. It wasn't a constitutional monarchy for the whole period and, even for the later years, to say that it was suggests a degree of benevolent democratic governance that simply wasn't applicable to large chunks of territory and their peoples.
5. Legislature - Not as an entity. At a more localised level: there were a number of other Parliaments.
6. "Historical era" - Have you not seen any of the discussion on this article's talk page about the selected topics/coverage? We can justify editorial choices about the structure of the narrative, but not a short list which would be highly subjective.
7. Area - It is not representative (arguably never can be) because it is a snapshot of a particular period and carries none of the caveats listed in the body text. Average population density doesn't tell the reader anything useful - pointless factoid.
8. Currency - So they used different currency in different places. How is this helpful or useful?
9. Preceded/succeeded by - The "structure of the Empire was succeeded by the Commonwealth"?! Really? It doesn't even include all the countries that were part of the Empire, but to suggest some sort of centralised governance structure is wrong (and, of course, misleading). There are as many variations (actually quite a lot more) as there are countries that were part of the Empire.

I don't see a new and/or compelling argument for introducing misleading factoids to a featured article. And, finally, I note that there are six editors opposing one editor's proposal. Looking at the list of people Tompadompa pinged, I don't think the odds are going to improve.Wiki-Ed (talk) 11:46, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

1. Capital - no de facto capital, then? Although you have said it was economically, socially and politically the capital, so therefore would London not be the de facto capital?
2. Language - Yes, it was. If you consider that English was the language used by all official correspondences and was the language of the governing officials and legislation.
3. Religion - Same as above. Christianity dominated British governance, and the Church of England had a major role in the coronation of monarchs - and still does.
4. Government - Fair enough, I will concede that point.
5. Legislature - I will also concede that point, though I still firmly stand by the historically accurate notion that the empire was administered through legislation passed through the British parliament.
6. Historical era - No, I haven't. Perhaps you could enlighten me? A short list wouldn't be all that subjective, as such short lists generally encompass key points in the empire's history; which is what has been done here.
7. Area - I still don't see a good reason for arguing that it is not representative. It is the maximum area covered by the empire at its height, which is even what it states it is a reflection of. As for the population density, that seems to be an automated in-built part of the coding of Wikipedia; as I didn't introduce that through manual editing. So take that up with someone else.
8. Currency - Surely it is useful in defining that the empire had no set currency? Pounds shilling and pence was the most commonly used in terms of measuring official revenue streams, though.
9. Preceded/succeeded by - Yes. In the same way the Roman Empire was preceded by the Roman Republic. Perhaps just overseas territories of Britain? As I stated before, "today part of" would be a better indicator of the actual countries the empire is now a part of.

They're not misleading, as I have demonstrated. "I note that there are six editors opposing one editor's proposal" - Fair enough. I suppose that is an example of how democracy allows ad populum to flourish. Some of what I have proposed is genuinely useful to the article. (RockDrummerQ (talk) 15:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC))

The British Monarch is still head of the commonwealth, and is still crowned by the CofE, that does not make Christianity the official religion of the commonwealth.Slatersteven (talk) 16:42, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Since the British Empire was not a legal entity, every aspect of it is de facto. And each of the fields in the info-box would therefore require judgment on our part, which is contrary to "No original research." Was Hanover ever part of the British Empire? Its citizens were British subjects. What about Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, the Mandate of Palestine, the princely states of India, the [Channel Islands]], occupied Tibet or the Oregon Country? TFD (talk) 01:56, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

RockDrummerQ please don't make the mistake of believing that because people disagree with you, they simply haven't read material or don't understand you. The position is pretty clear ----Snowded ^TALK 05:49, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

It wasn't as simplistic as people disagreeing. It was people raising the exact same points I had addressed before. That's where it becomes tiresome, and, from my perspective, like people really aren't paying due attention. (RockDrummerQ (talk) 15:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC))

Or that you have made the self same points over and over again without explaining why the rebuttals are incorrect. It is clear this is going nowhere so can we drop it now?Slatersteven (talk) 15:26, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

I actually have explained if you bothered to read the conversation properly. I actually came back to say I'm relinquishing these proposed changes. I'm focusing my attention on the American Revolutionary War. (RockDrummerQ (talk) 13:48, 14 May 2017 (UTC))

References

Just throwing my two pence in here. I’m concerned by what I’ve read in the comments above, namely the users who are hell bent on denying the empire ever existed at all in a legal capacity simply because, by their own criteria, it doesn’t match their description of such a thing. And that therefore the largest empire in history and the global hegemon of the 19th century apparently never existed at all and was never owned or run by anyone in particular and was never based anywhere. I’m not going to waste words arguing about this for ages, I am simply here to inform said users that they are incorrect. Kudos to RockDrummerQ for trying to talk some sense though - I’ve had issues in the past with articles on this website being dominated by one or a group of individuals with an agenda.

The arguments being put forward that the empire doesn’t meet the criteria for having an infobox is curious more than anything else, if not completely bizarre. For instance one user at the beginning stating that simply because there have been numerous iterations of the UK as a sovereign nation over time that this is somehow an argument against the empire being considered a “thing”. Nonsense. There are articles on this website with infoboxes that aren't even countries that have that box as a reference point for readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:B390:6A00:6531:6689:118E:C4C6 (talk) 17:38, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

I guess most of this went over your head. This isn't about 'proving' something existed or did not, it is about introducing (or not) misleading information into an article by glossing over the many and significant complexities of the entity which it cover. Wiki-Ed (talk) 19:06, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

No one is hell-bent on proving the empire did not exist as a legal entity, it did not. That makes it impossible to populate the normal info-box fields since the information is either inapplicable or differs depending on how the empire is defined. There are several beginning and ending dates for example, and no agreement on the territorial extent or citizenship. TFD (talk) 22:36, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

It is as well to be aware that the British Empire arose in an ad hoc way and was almost never planned except in a few rare cases. Very few of the territorial gains or acquisitions arose by aggressive war and deliberate conquest, rather many 'just sort of happened' as a result of victorious wars against other colonial powers, e.g, France and Spain, and the others were a result of global exploration and coming into contact with 'savages' who were still effectively in the stone age. Post-WW I the Empire acquired a number of territories that Britain neither wanted nor had any interest in, and which, from the POV of the sitting governments in Westminster, were quite frankly, a PITA. I'm sure many of you could work out which ones those were.

It is also as well to remember that where a territory had its own recognisable native leadership and laws, the British tried to fit in with them where possible, and did in fact purchase land from the tribal owners, rather than simply steal it, as some other colonizers I (and am sure you) could name, did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.10.248 (talk) 18:00, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

HarveyCarter

I've just removed some threads started by banned User:HarveyCarter per WP:DENY. I'd suggest doing the same if similar types of posts re-appear. Nick-D (talk) 10:37, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

I recall that you've done this before. Grateful if you could share the secret of how you identify him. I could see the sockpuppeting, but not sure how you linked it to a specific banned user. Wiki-Ed (talk) 19:01, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:BEANS probably best not to give that away. But thanks Nick, I thought something was up. WCM_email 23:53, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I'd prefer to not publicly post the methodology used to identify HarveyCarter, beyond noting that its largely due to the editing pattern and that accounts which start trolling-style discussions on the articles he favours are highly likely to be him. Nick-D (talk) 08:30, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Unclear

“Britain was challenged again by France under Napoleon, in a struggle that, unlike previous wars, represented a contest of ideologies between the two nations.” — What does this mean? The statement is supported with a reference to some book, and I assume that book contains the meaning. Here, it's an empty statement with no content. 188.170.72.211 (talk) 19:18, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

It seems fairly self-explanatory and self-standing to me. What bit don't you get? Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:04, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Same here, it is saying that it was a clash of outlooks, unlike previous wars.Slatersteven (talk) 09:59, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

1920, 1921, 1922?

As I browse Wikipedia, there seems to be no agreement over the exact year when the British Empire reached its territorial peak.Ernio48 (talk) 00:20, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Links might be useful.Slatersteven (talk) 09:22, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

List of largest empires for instance. There are others but I'm too lazy to list them. Could anyone provide a definitive year with a citation supporting it in this article? Or even add a sentence to the article?Ernio48 (talk) 13:59, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

TFA again?

Are there any thoughts on whether this article should run a second time at TFA under the new rules? There aren't any deadlinks, there seems to be a relatively small amount of uncited material which could easily be cleaned up, and aside from that it seems in good shape.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:11, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

How about that map in the infobox? There seems to be a constant disagreement from what I see.Ernio48 (talk) 15:05, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Demographics section

Some of the numbers in the Demographics section don't make sense. Specifically:

1. for 1814, the article states that every resident of British North America was white. This is highly dubious.
2. for 1901, the numbers for Africa differ by about 8.5 million. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:22, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

1, maybe not. It says we do not know.

2, Differ from what?Slatersteven (talk) 09:27, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

1. No, it said there were 486,146 people in total in British North America in the first table, and 486,146 white people in British North America in the second table, with an unknown number of non-white people. So either one of the figures is incorrect, or the layout of the table is misleading. I have corrected the table.

33.5 million non-whites and 1 million whites (second table) do not add up to 43 million in total (first table).

These aren't the only problems you have 5,638,944 people in the Asian colonies in 1901 in the first table and only 5,144,954 in the second table: half a million people are missing. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:22, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Ahhh yes, I see.Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Peak of British power

Would it be worth while to include a source on how during the 1870s Britain was at it's peak economically in terms of percent of world's output? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickboy000 (talk • contribs) 21:09, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Can you explain why this might be of benefit?Slatersteven (talk) 10:50, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2017

hi 209.190.225.66 (talk) 19:02, 10 November 2017 (UTC) And you edit is?Slatersteven (talk) 19:07, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:12, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2017

Change the map on the top right of the page as it seems to be inaccurate, Afghanistan was invaded by the British but never a part of their Empire or annexed. Sunni22 (talk) 17:14, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

It was a British protectorate before 1919 when it became independent. TFD (talk) 19:50, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

British Empire (1583 - present)

Doesn't the British Empire technically still exist due to there still being colonies albeit with different names? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danishjaveed (talk • contribs) 03:37, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

It's a complex issue, one can argue that (technically) the queen was only ever "empress of India" and thus the "British Empire" ceased to exist in 1947. This is because (apart from the afore mentioned title) the British empire was never a true legal entity.Slatersteven (talk) 09:45, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

It depends on how the Empire is defined. In France, Germany, Russia, Austria, etc., there was a declaration that the king or leader had become an emperor and in the end an abdication. In Britain there was a gradual move to use the term empire, but no official declaration, followed in the late 20th century to the term falling out of use. Victoria became Empress of India, which gave her the same status as the European emperors, but she was never the "British Empress." So there is no agreement about when the empire began or ended or how far it extended. Also, the independent members of the Commonwealth were still considered part of the empire. In 1959, Queen Elizabeth said Canada in 1867 became the "first independent country within the British Empire.... So, it also marks the beginning of that free association of independent states which is now known as the Commonwealth of Nations."

In 1946, the UK agreed with the UN in 1946 that the colonies should not longer be treated as colonies, and the term was dropped in 1983. The courts have determined that the queen of each territory is a separate person from the Queen of the UK.

TFD (talk) 14:30, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

The 1532 Statute in Restraint of Appeals, which declared Britain to legally be an Empire was repealed in 1969. The styling of the monarch as an emperor was, as noted above, not used before Victoria was declared Empress of India in 1876, and was dropped after India became independent in 1947; but Britain had been routinely described as an empire since the 16th century. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:17, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

It declared the realm of England to be an empire, the purpose of which was to deny papal authority. But it makes no reference to a British empire or of the King's other realms. TFD (talk) 00:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Quite so. Back then "other realms" referred to Scotland, so Nicholas Bodrugan could write in 1548 of "the whole Empire and name of great Briteigne." The claim of the English monarchs to be rulers of Scotland was actualised in 1603, and the realm officially became Great Britain in 1707. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:46, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think that is right. The claim was that Scotland was part of the realm of England.[3] The King's other realms in 1532 were France (at least the claim was made), Ireland, the Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man. But they were not part of the Empire because they were not part of the Realm. TFD (talk) 14:54, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Victoria was 'Empress of India' because the Maharajas of the princely states owed allegiance to her. George V, Edward VIII, and George VI were all 'Emperor of India' for the same reason until Indian Independence.

An 'Emperor' or 'Empress' is someone who kings or queens owe allegiance to.

But not before 1876. The reason? The declaration of the German Empire in 1870 meant that Victoria, Princess Royal, the daughter of Queen Victoria, might eventually outrank her, something Victoria wanted to avoid. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:28, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Actually 1876 was the year that Indians became British subjects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.10.249 (talk) 10:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Should be categorised under 'History of the Commonwealth of Nations'.

This article should be categorised under History of the Commonwealth of Nations, as the British Empire evolved into the Commonwealth of Nations. - (101.98.104.241 (talk) 03:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC))

Time and the empire

Well first, what does Ferguson actually say? Second, what are the official dates of the start of each empire?Slatersteven (talk) 15:26, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Maybe I need to rephrase it, is there a source for the claim that the British empire was established 1 and a half centuries after the Spanish? Please do not re add this claim with out answering this simple question.Slatersteven (talk) 16:30, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Ferguson says that a century and a half before 1655, Christopher Columbus had laid the foundations of Spain's American Empire. Which is not the same as "The Spanish Empire had been established more than a century and a half prior to the first British colonies".--Ykraps (talk) 16:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

So there can be no valid reason for the edit then, the source does not support it it is OR.Slatersteven (talk) 16:55, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

No, not that particular sentence at any rate. I've tracked down an online portion of the book, which includes page 2, here.[[4]]--Ykraps (talk) 18:04, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

The prior colonial activity of Portugal and Spain is already covered in the second paragraph of the lead: "During the Age of Discovery in the 15th and 16th centuries, Portugal and Spain pioneered European exploration of the globe, and in the process established large overseas empires. ...England, France, and the Netherlands began to establish colonies and trade networks of their own in the Americas and Asia" and in the section Origins (1497–1583). Mention of "industrial nation" here, sourced to Ferguson narrating the seizure of Jamaica, would be beside the point and anachronistical. And see Book:British colonization in north America (from the reign of King James). Qexigator (talk) 18:19, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I happen to have a copy of the 2004 Ferguson on my shelf. The user has selectively quoted text from different paragraphs, pasted them together and come up with a new narrative claiming Ferguson as the source. The "conscious imitation" is Ferguson's opinion; doesn't need to be replicated as fact here. Taken out of context the "first industrial nation" bit suggests the industrial revolution started elsewhere - clearly nonsense. The century and a half bit is also misleading: Ferguson actually says Columbus "laid the foundations", which is no more or less than what Cabot did all of five years later. The first actual English colony in the Americas was at Roanoke in 1585, not 1606.

Regardless of the (non)merits of the inserted text, this information is already covered in the article. It doesn't need to be added again in this sensationalist way. Wiki-Ed (talk) 22:31, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree. It is both inaccurate and undue.--Ykraps (talk) 06:52, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Citation needed

There is a sentence in the article that states "Fiji ... chose to become Commonwealth realms". It has no source and I don't think you'll be able to find one. Please either remove it or add "{{citation needed}}" to the end of the sentence. 188.31.132.81 (talk) 18:51, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Source found. That was easy enough. Do it yourself next time. Wiki-Ed (talk) 22:01, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

IPs can't edit semi-protected pages. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:18, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Afghanistan

Afghanistan was never part of the British empire and so, cannot be included in the map. Every source mentions Afghanistan being distinct from the British empire. They always refer to Afghanistan as the "buffer state" between the British and Russia. All sources mention this:

• In the title of this book: [5]
• p.89 of this book: [6]
• p 35-36 of this book: [7]

Hayras123 (talk) 03:34, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Your source says that Britain gave independence to Afghanistan in 1919. How could they do that were it not part of the Empire TFD (talk) 03:56, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces: Independence from British control. Afghanistan was never a part of the British empire. Afghanistan achieved independence from its protected state} status, not from the British empire. No source in history mentions Afghanistan as a part of the British empire, none. Please provide a source that mentions Afghanistan explicitly as part of British India or the British empire

"(Afghanistan) a large piece of real estate that represented distance between the British empire and Russia

Afghanistan occupies the almost unique position of being an absolutely independent kingdom and at the same time a protected state

Afghanistan was not part of the British empire

Afghanistan was not part of the British Empire after three bloody wars

I could go on, and there are alot more sources. Hayras123 (talk) 09:49, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

References

[8] So yes it was partially part of the British empire, [9] at one time we had actually conquered it (and even and a man in charge in Kabul). Of course it depends on what you mean by (part of the empire).Slatersteven (talk) 10:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

I am also very dubious of any source talking about the British in Afghanistan that do not mention Elphinstone, the period when Britannia occupied the country.Slatersteven (talk) 10:43, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Elphinstone himself never claimed Afghanistan was or was not part of Afghanistan. No sources say of him mentioning either side. Also, no, Afghanistan was never part of the British empire. Even your included links don't mention anywhere that Afghanistan was part of the British empire. Who was this so called 'man in charge of Kabul'. To reiterate, all proven sources state that Afghanistan was never part of the British empire. Hayras123 (talk) 11:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Those are not persuasive sources. A current news report about Afghan Independence Day for example. Do you have any books about the British Empire by historians or lawyers? All the sources agree that it was a British protected state and its citizens were British protected persons and it became independent of the UK in 1919. TFD (talk) 22:50, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces:I included a tonne of extra sources but that seems to have not uploaded. So I'll repeat, these books are from historians. They show that Afghanistan was never part of the British empire. However, logically speaking, you should provide sources that Afghanistan was part of the British empire. The most the British empire had was control over Afghanistan's foreign affairs.

A protected state is a territory under a ruler which enjoys Her Britannic Majesty's protection, over whose foreign affairs she exercises control, but in respect of whose internal affairs she does not exercise jurisdiction.

During the ensuing conflict, the war-weary British relinquished their control over Afghan foreign affairs by signing the Treaty of Rawalpindi in August 1919.

Amanullah wanted the attainment of Afghanistan's political independence in foreign affairs

King written the British viceroy, rejecting British control of his foreign policy and declaring Afghanistan Mignon fully independent

The second round of Anglo- Afghan negotiations for final peace were inconclusive. Both sides were prepared to agree on Afghan independence in foreign affairs

Although both sides were ready to agree on Afghan independence in foreign affairs

Those are not good sources?

Furthermore, no maps from the time ever showed Afghanistan as part of the British empire

• 1855: [10]
• 1915, from the date and your claims this map should have Afghanistan, but it doesn't: [11]

And none of these maps have Afghanistan either

• [12]
• [13]
• [14]

But why am I going on about this anyway? Logically speaking you should be providing sources that Afghanistan was part of the British empire, not the other way around. Hayras123 (talk) 07:42, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

References

If you want to change the caption of the current map to "The British empire at its greatest extent, including all protectorate, princely states, dominions, mandates and other dependencies" I have no issue with that (Afghanistan was a protectorate) but I object to a map that does not show all protectorates or countries that were protectorates at one time.Slatersteven (talk) 10:11, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Afghanistan was a protected state, not a protectorate. A protectorate itself isn't even part of the British empire but a protected state is even more independent, where Britain at most had only foreign control. The map is wrong, and another improved version must be added instead. I believe I have included more than 10 sources so far, and no sources have been mentioned that Afghanistan was part of the British empire.

The only acceptable map that shows all of Britain's territories is this map [15] Hayras123 (talk) 11:43, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Afghanistan was a protectorate. [16], [17].Slatersteven (talk) 11:51, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

And can you please learn to indent, it is making this very had top follow.Slatersteven (talk) 11:52, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Indention corrected. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:01, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Can you learn to actually read sources. This map disagrees with you [18]

and this one [19]

just typing in "Afghanistan was a protectorate" into google and then looking for books doesn't make it automatically correct, especially when every other source disagrees with you.

Afghanistan occupies the almost unique position of being an absolutely independent kingdom and at the same time a protected state

But the British continued to look upon Afghanistan as a protected state.

To reiterate, this is the best map to use, as it correctly illustrates all British held territories: [20]

References

And do you not understand that one of those maps do not show the USA as British territory, and thus clearly reflect the extent of the British empire, at a given date. Also none of your sources say it was never a protectorate, just that at a given time it had a unique status.Slatersteven (talk) 13:18, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

If your eyes do not see any better, it clearly mentions Afghanistan as a protected state not a protectorate:

Afghanistan occupies the almost unique position of being an absolutely independent kingdom and at the same time a protected state

But the British continued to look upon Afghanistan as a protected state.

And for god's sake, the map I'm arguing to replace the current map clearly shows the US as part of Britain, as the description states; " An anachronous map of all the official territorial claims of the British Empire that it ever held which identifies what type of holding was present on all possessions during their territorial, historical, and/or geographical peak." Do not be apathetic in this regard and actually take a look at the map I want to replace the current map: [21] Hayras123 (talk) 13:23, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

References

And that map is not a source for itself. Also that was not the caption you used when you added it (and I note you are now changing it now that is has been shown that at one time Afghanistan was a protectorate. I do loo at the map, and at one time Afghanistan was a protectorate (and no source you have presented contradicts that). And I do not think apathetic means what you think it means. Also keep it polite and do not comment on other users. Now either present a source that explicitly says Afghanistan was never a British protectorate at any time or stop this.Slatersteven (talk) 13:43, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Prove to me that their isn't a kettle right now in orbit around the sun

^That is the sort of logic you are using right now. I gave you sources that Afghanistan was a protected state, many of them in fact and have shown you sources that Afghanistan was not part of the British empire. Logially speaking you should provide a source that Afghanistan was a part of the British empire but you have failed on every reply. You are carrying on a narrative that is grounded only in whatever thought process is going on in your mind. Provide a source that Afghanistan was a part of the British empire, and if not, you have absolutely no right to be altering the truth. This is what you are exhibiting right now [22].

Also, it seems like you are attacking me by giving false claims that I have been altering the captions of the pictures. It only takes a few clicks to get to the history page of that file on commons [23]. This map is the only correct map [24]

(i've noted that you are resorting to personal attacks and claims instead of actually addressing the sources. Stop that) Hayras123 (talk) 13:58, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Actually if an RS said "there is a kettle in orbit" you would need a source that says there is not for it to be contested by RS. What you have provided are sources that say that at any given time Afghanistan was not part of the British empire, what you have not done is provided one source that says it was not ever protectorate. The USA was not (at any given point) part of the British empire, or even a protectorate. I supported the text (if not the picture) of your first map, but you have now altered that text. If you are not going to try and compromise then there is not point any further to this discussion, I ask for it to be closed as no consensus.Slatersteven (talk) 14:06, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

The only compromise is that this map is used [25] along with the caption " An anachronous map of all the official territorial claims of the British Empire that it ever held." or "A map of all dominions, princely states, protectorates, mandates and other dependencies of the British empire". Hayras123 (talk) 14:13, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Or any other combination thereof. Afghanistan was never part of the British empire and either the map or the caption should explicitly illustrate/mention that. Hayras123 (talk) 14:21, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Hayras123, if a source is inadequate, the solution is not to provide twenty similar sources, but to provide one good source. If for example someone questioned a newspaper article that provided the distance from the Earth to the Sun, you would not look for twenty other newspaper articles saying the same thing, but look for an astronomy textbook. Note that Slatersteven has been able to provide multiple sources that Afghanistan was a protectorate, when in fact it was a protected state. But some sources use the terms interchangeably. So providing more sources is not going to resolve that dispute. Another problem is that the British Empire was not a legal entity and therefore its extent in time and space is unclear. You need something by an historian writing about the British Empire who says that Afghanistan was never considered to be a part of the Empire or a legal textbook where the author provides a definition of the Empire and an explanation of why Afghanistan was not part of it sourced to legal precedents. As a compromise, we could say, "British empire and dependent territories." TFD (talk) 14:28, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

I think "British empire and Protected territories." Might be better.Slatersteven (talk) 14:53, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

FYI, Britain's sole interest in Afghanistan was dictated by The Great Game and the possibility of a Russian invasion of India via Afghanistan and the Khyber Pass. As a result of this fear Britain organised several military expeditions into Afghanistan with a view to setting up defences against Russia. The Afghanis took exception to this and after receiving several 'bloody-noses' the British gave up, realising that if the Afghanis wouldn't let them invade Afghanistan, they certainly weren't going to let Russia do it either, and so India was safe.

Apparently Afghanistan did have a Political Officer, although whether Afghanistan was ever part of the Empire I wouldn't know.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.247.9 (talk) 09:46, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

The forum for discussing changes to this article is here. This talk page. Do not fork off to Dispute Resolution without informing other users. All this wasted effort because someone dicked around with the map on Wikimedia. Unfortunately WP doesn't tell us when pictures change and we didn't spot it. However, since User Hayras123 did spot it he could have easily checked the history, reverted the mistake and gone on his way rather than adding the multi-coloured travesty. This [26] is not acceptable. It is full of errors, the key is misleading and it is not based on reliable sources. The original map was based on two reliable sources - both of which are considered strong - and, because it doesn't try to categorise, it doesn't open up silly disputes over "protectorates" or "protected status" or "trust territories". I've restored the original map on Wikimedia - removing Afghanistan and a few other little additions that people have been sneakily adding to it - and restored the infobox. If you want to dispute it again make the case here. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:41, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

If the British protectorate of the Emirate of Afghanistan (1879-1919) is not considered part of the British Empire, then much of the middle east and south-east asia should be omitted by your logic (this is a simple denial of history). The sources arguing in denial of this here refer to the aftermath of the Second Anglo-Afghan War and not the Third, as well as reference to an independent Afghanistan after 1919. Not to mention,the removal of the Oregon territory is also blasphemous. Roman Law and the concept of Uti Possidetis was reaffirmed in 1750 and determined that only land in effective possession by a nation can be claimed at all. Vancouver on behalf of the British Crown laid effective control of the Oregon Country before 1810 on up until the 1830's when American settlers established its provisional government there. British government and by extension, the British Hudson Bay Company settled this territory exclusively before the 1830's, in practice negating Russia and Spain's claims. They later further legitimized their rule of the territory under joint administration with the US as a condominium. The only areas upon which I agree have been rightfully changed are those in relation to Libya and Antarctica. British Australian Antarctica was not officially recognized until after Australia became independent of the British Empire in 1932 and the Antarctic Treaty of 1959 was signed. Lastly, "British" Libya was not part of the British Empire because military occupation does not impede the sovereignty of a nation under the Geneva Convention. If past British military administrations dictated the Empire's prior territorial reach, then much of the world map would be covered. --TheAceOfSpades115 (talk) 00:37, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

This isn't "denial of history", it's reference to reliable sources, one of the core pillars of Wikipedia. If the sources we're using say that an area was part of the British Empire - explicitly - then we can include them on this map. If they don't, we don't. Simple. It's also simple to see that your formalised term - the "British Protectorate of the Emirate of Afghanistan" - does not register in a wide range of sources so one might think it was just original research. Similarly, you'd need a number of sources explicitly stating that the Oregon Territory was a part of the British Empire (i.e. enough to outweigh the number that do not say this). This challenge has been made before and we're still waiting, see here [27]. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:47, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

https://books.google.com/books?id=LhI0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA409&dq=oregon+part+of+british+empire&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU6IfGgdbYAhWEYt8KHZTYA4kQ6AEIVTAI#v=onepage&q=exclusive%20possession&f=false.--TheAceOfSpades115 (talk) 00:41, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

https://books.google.com/books?id=0-Y7AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA10&dq=oregon+part+of+british+empire&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU6IfGgdbYAhWEYt8KHZTYA4kQ6AEIOjAD#v=onepage&q=oregon%20part%20of%20british%20empire&f=false.--TheAceOfSpades115 (talk) 00:43, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

"Province of the British Empire" and stating that Britain has "exclusive possession" of Oregon through the medium of HBC.--TheAceOfSpades115 (talk) 00:37, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

State of Oregon's words (2nd picture descending): http://www.yinyangbob.com/Photos/Oregon5_07/Day_1.html.--TheAceOfSpades115 (talk) 00:41, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

There are sources that state that the entire new world western hemisphere belongs to Spain and there are sources that state that the entire trading routes of the eastern hemisphere belongs to Portugal. (Legitimized under the Treaty of Tordesillas and proclamation by the Pope). If we were to map out empires by "sources explicitly stating" that territory was a part of their empire, we would be here all day. Britain had legitimate de facto and de jure Crown settlements in Oregon and legitimate Crown administrators dictating the foreign affairs of Afghanistan. A protectorate, no matter how strongly or weakly controlled by its occupier, is always a colony. --TheAceOfSpades115 (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Your first and second references, and your interpretation of them, are a good example of the 'original' research I mentioned above. You're citing a single primary reference in which the author and a speaker assert that Britain has effective control. This is not reliable secondary source written by a historian (see here). And it doesn't mention the British Empire. Your third reference is a photo of a sign post. That's not a reliable source either, and even if what it says is true, an individual claiming territory in the name of the Crown is not the same as making it a part of the British Empire.

On your point about ownership of the Western hemisphere - the pope had no authority to 'legitimise' land grabs. Nevertheless you'll see the map on the article about the Spanish Empire claims vast areas of North America that never saw a Spaniard, and the Portugese Empire map claims several oceans! This article doesn't include absurd claims or areas of influence, it uses reliable secondary sources to justify inclusion of territory that was actually, demonstrably, under British control, not judgements based on what we, as editors, think is the 'truth'. This article is a featured article - unlike the other two - and should maintain its high standard of sourcing.

Your final point about protectorates and colonies is simply wrong. A protectorate is never a colony. And Afghanistan wasn't even a protectorate. "Protected state" might be closer, but even that is debatable. Wiki-Ed (talk) 10:35, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

I think the issue is that other pages with maps on the Portugese+Spanish Empires are more liberal with their map colorings and are more nationalistic with their claims as you rightly more or less stated. There is probably some contention drawing upon the fact that this is a featured page and therefore less malleable to idealistic change. The Emirate of Afghanistan page highlights it as a "protectorate" and not a "protected state" also, which I thankfully now know is false. Although I still believe the Oregon Country was part of the British Empire through my own actual readings, honestly I am disheartened that the I held WP pages to the same standard and that the BE map was false for three years. For what its worth, our Tango has at least shown people that things should be debated before change. I am barely 19, glad I learned stuff, peace out. It is impressive that you made this page into a featured one.--TheAceOfSpades115 (talk) 00:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I didn't do that, the guy who made the map did. Talking of which, it's easy to make tiny changes of Wikimedia - they don't register in the watch list and they are difficult to see with the naked eye. PS. I don't think we're saying Oregon absolutely couldn't have been part of the British Empire - that may be open to debate - but the sources used here don't make it sufficiently clear that it was. The protectorate of the Emirate of Afghanistan now has a 'citation needed' tag. Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Fantastic that you did that, I just noticed. I am a great fan of The Age of Discovery and history of colonization esp. British and Spanish Empires. I'll probably be brushing up a little more on the history and perhaps I'll add some well thought out additions using primary sources. Wikipedia certainly won't be the first port of call for information regarding Afghanistan, that's for sure. I think I was stupid enough to believe that historians were somehow underhandedly paid to edit information here. I also kind of thought that the prevailing display of information on WP was necessarily the right one due to layered editing. PS. The sources I used were fired from the hip merely to raise awareness. This is no chat room I guess lol, I'll be more scrutinous next time.--TheAceOfSpades115 (talk) 07:00, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

In reply to a statement earlier in this post Libya was never an official part of the British Empire, it had been invaded by Italy and Britain had responded with military aid upon Mussolini's declaration of war in 1940 and the Italian invasion of Egypt. Later King Idris signed a treaty with the UK allowing British forces to be based there. Subsequently Colonel Gaddafi rescinded the treaty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.53.180 (talk) 09:53, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Clarity

The article starts out with the premise that the British Empire is a former entity ("comprised.."), and therefore it needs some start and finish dates delivered at the very front of the article. The section "End of Empire" also is vaguely written, and the idea that the term British Empire is retired, needs clarification, particularly when the United Kingdom and the British Empire are the same thing (overlapping periods), and that the term "commonwealth" is coinage without much in the way of meaningful distinction from "empire." -Inowen (talk) 21:51, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Since the Empire had no legal or formal existence, it is not possible to date its beginning or end. It's like asking when the psychedelic era ended. For some people, it never did. The term Commonwealth was adopted to recognize that the Empire had changed if not ended. TFD (talk) 12:08, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

And this information is provided if you bother to read part the first line.Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:11, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Hover Over Map

If you hover over a link to British Empire you get a Union Jack flag that is cut off at the top. The top left hand corner of the map should be the dividing line between the red and large white diagonal.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 23:17, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 August 2018

An editor has recently put in at the British Empires description at the right that it ended in 1945, and its last Monarch was King George VI. This is untrue, and there has been arguments over this sort of thing before on whither it ended in 1997 or is still present today, which technically it is. Therefore its only wise that the dates be removed and that Queen Elizabeth II be headed as the present Leader.

There is no actual fact to say the British Empire has ended, its only a saying by the media during the time. Her Majesty still retain the 'Order of the British Empire', hence its backed up that the Empires still in existence. The editing of the date to 1945 is ludicrous, and has no claim to 'End of Empire' as there were still a massive amount of British territories at the time.

Thank you,

TheBritishImperial TheBritishImperial (talk) 20:17, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

 Done Danski454 (talk) 21:08, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

So the "debate" over if and when the "British Empire" ceased to be an "empire" means countless "reliable sources" and "experts" have to be wrong. Correct? Do you have sources for YOUR "correction"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.234.100.169 (talk) 19:25, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

See BIOT, BAT, BOT, Gibraltar, The Falkland Islands, Diego Garcia, Bermuda, St Helena, Tristan da Cunha, Ascension Island, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.10.189 (talk) 10:46, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Since the Empire was never a formal institution, it is not clear when it began or ended. The term however mostly ceased to be used in formal documents, although it is retained in the some institutions such as the Order of the British Empire. TFD (talk) 20:29, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Where are these countless sources that claim the British Empire still exists today? If you (not TFD) find any they will need to be compared with other sources that claim the Empire has ended, and a weighting debate will follow. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:17, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Genocidies of British Empire:

What happens with this... AND OTHER GENOCIDIES...

Bengal famine of 1943 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943 Mau Mau Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mau_Mau_Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_revolt_against_the_British

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India#Resettlement_of_refugees_in_India:_1947%E2%80%931957

How about... NOTHING. Wiki-Ed (talk) 23:04, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

What are you asking?Slatersteven (talk) 08:26, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Revisionism - there is no evidence that there was planned genocide. You are attempting to distort history to fit the new Neo-Liberal/Progressive view that the West is/was evil.

Blatent Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Rather than tackle the blatent genocide in the Middle-East or past genocide in the Balkans or Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.242.174.229 (talk) 11:43, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Just tell then to get a dictionary. They might then discover the true meaning of a word instead of just spreading it around willy-nilly.

BTW, the Bengal Famine occurred in the middle of the greatest war the world has ever known, why would Britain deliberately cause or allow a famine to occur in a area that was an essential part of the British war effort, vis, the Indian Army. BTW, see; Bangladesh famine of 1974.

The 'Mau Mau' were a quasi-religious group who practised a tribal form of black magic which so scared their own tribes-people such that many of the Mau Mau, who were mostly young adult males, were unable to get wives - a wife being an important signifier of a man's social standing within the local culture. The Mau Mau then resorted to murdering white settlers and their families, often in gruesome and barbaric ways, as was demanded by the religious practices of the cult. Many of the victims, including children, were still alive when they were being hacked about, as was evident from the Kenyan CID crime scene photographs taken shortly after the killings.

At the time Iraq was not part of the British Empire but was being administered by Britain under a mandate from the League of Nations after the fall of Ottoman rule, as was also Palestine. The deaths on both sides in Iraq were the result of an armed revolt. The Mandate was awarded to Britain BTW so that neither Shiite nor Sunni Moslem would be favoured over the other by the administration.

The post-partition events happened after Britain left India.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.53.180 (talk) 10:04, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

BTW, upon hearing of the outbreak of famine in Bengal Mountbatten ordered half of his entire SEAC shipping allocation to be made available for fighting the famine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.18.130 (talk) 09:19, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

So ordering something to be made available means what actual action again? And sending even more people into an area where there is a critical shortage of food was going to help how? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.234.100.169 (talk) 19:21, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

The famine was a result of failure of the rice crop brought about by periodic climatic conditions which still occur today and by some people hoarding excessive quantities of rice for their own use, while the civilian merchant shipping that would normally have been used to bring in much-needed rice from elsewhere was otherwise occupied with military work. In addition, several of the rice-producing regions from which rice could normally have been imported were then under Japanese Occupation. Mountbatten therefore released half of SEAC's ships to bring in rice from elsewhere. The authorities in India also developed the "Bengal Famine Mixture" to give to the people most seriously malnourished, and this food mixture was also initially given to the survivors of Bergen-Belsen upon its liberation. BTW, there was also a Dutch famine of 1944–45. There was a war on and things that would not have occured in peacetime sometimes do occur despite the best efforts of the people involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.10.189 (talk) 09:13, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

All areas etc map

The map showing all areas of the world which were ever part of the British empire, seems to have some omissions:

E.g.:

- Tangiers (1661 - 1684) - Immediate post WW1 areas of western Egypt & eastern Kenya, sold / ceded to Italy in the 1920s & still reflected in modern national borders - arguably Cyrenaica, which was briefly under British civil administration following WW2 (I'm assuming here the map deliberately excludes military occupation or wartime occupation, which would include many other territories) - Australian & NZ Antarctic territories (assuming Statute of Westminster is taken as Australian & NZ independence)

Is someone able to add these?

Wdcarter2 (talk) 22:39, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

No. The map reflects the sources. We do not include something that was "arguably" part of the Empire. Either the sources say that it was or they do not. I am currently trying to persuade the admins on Wikimedia Commons to protect the map from constant vandalism by editors who don't seem to understand that simple principle. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:43, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Seems a bit aggressive. Happy to provide sources and nothing above is contentious. I said "arguably" because it depends on the definition of British territory being used - which I'd assumed was agreed somewhere else. I see the map has been updated since yesterday. I'd request two further updates:

1. Tangiers in modern Morocco (see Wikipedia article titled "Tangier") 2. Bencoolen in modern Indonesia (see Wikipedia article titled "British Bencoolen").

There are sources for the other inclusions; happy to provide if helpful.[User:Wdcarter2|Wdcarter2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wdcarter2 (talk • contribs) 22:28, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Since the British Empire had no formal existence or definition, we cannot look at the facts of any territory but only at what sources include or exclude, which is based on opinions from the time, which may apply inconsistent criteria and change over time. TFD (talk) 00:17, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks TFD - so, for my understanding, I have to provide contemporary sources describing these places (Tangiers & Bencoolen) as part of the British empire? Just trying to be clear on what we mean by "sources" so I know the threshold that has to be passed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wdcarter2 (talk • contribs) 08:05, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Ok, sources! :) :

For British Bencoolen being part of the British Empire, & added to the map, see: Olson JS, Shadle R, editors, Historical Dictionary of the British Empire, vol 2., p1074 (at entry for Sumatra) Greenwood Publishing Group, 1996, ISBN9780313293672

For Tangiers being part of the British Empire, & added to the map, see: Dr John Wregslworth: Tangier, England's Forgotten Colony (1661 - 1684) https://web.archive.org/web/20080905061419/http://www.elsewhereonline.com.au/Members/ChristopherWood/resources/by-country/morocco/tangier-england2019s-forgotten-colony-1661-1684

Is that sufficient?

First please can you indent your contributions so it's easier to read (using colons). Secondly - apologies if I came across as aggressive - I'm trying to deal with some muppets on Wikimedia who have been adding countries seemingly arbitrarily - hence (a) little patience and (b) the map constantly changing from the consensus sourced version to the fantasy version they're peddling.

As to the substance of your query: the references have to be quite specific (i.e. to the effect that X was a part of the British Empire), ideally point to books rather than websites, and you may find you'll need quite a few if it's an unusual claim (by which I mean others might not have heard of it). So on - Tangiers - I think that's quite well known and I wonder if it's simply a case of the map author unintentionally obscuring the small pink blob of Tangier with a large pink square of Gibraltar. Bencoolen - I have to admit I hadn't heard of that - the main source should be good if it actually says the place was part of the British Empire as opposed to a possession of the East India Company; the others (listed on that page) don't meet the specificity/reliability criteria under WP:V.

The other places you mentioned in your first post - I don't think military protectorates are usually included by historians. Consistency would demand that we include, for example, parts of post-war Germany, which would be a bit silly, and any other country that Britain temporarily controlled during its many wars Wiki-Ed (talk) 19:39, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Wdcarter2, I would look for a textbook about the Empire, possibly a legal textbook that explains what the Empire was and what countries were considered part of it and which countries that it influenced were not. The fact that one writer or another considered a country to be part of the Empire is not good enough, because it is merely their opinion. The new suggestions differ from the countries that were considered part of the Empire. Oregon and Antarctica were merely disputed claims. None of them had actual British subjects living there. And the source on Tangier is talking about a period before Great Britain even existed. But again, arguments are pointless because what was or was not part of the Empire does not have follow any rational method. TFD (talk) 00:38, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, I agree with this up to your last sentence. I would assume that most historians will follow a rational method. It's the difference between those methods which may appear random. So we have to assess what the majority have come up with using their respective methods and that's how we shape the article's scope.Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:05, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Certainly historians use rational methods, which in this case is determining what people meant by the British Empire. But the people using the term did not necessarily have consistent reasons for including or excluding territory, hence no rational method which provided objective criteria for membership. So why does the map include British Antarctica but not the Australian or NZ claims, which were first taken out by the UK in the 19th century? TFD (talk) 03:18, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

That's a good question and it had occurred to me. My understanding of the historiography - very generally - is that claims, protected states and other areas within an imperial sphere of influence should not be included. (The Spanish and Portugese empire maps look ridiculous because they include areas the Spanish didn't even explore or know about, let alone control.) So, I wonder if there was something that Red Hat picked up from one of the sources which suggested the British wedge of Antarctica was more than just a claim (perhaps because it was occupied/administered) whereas the Aus/NZ wedges were just claims? Supposition - I don't know - he'd have to answer that himself. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:39, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

My point is that there was no constitution saying what was part of the Empire and there were no legal consequences for being part or not part. It was whatever people thought it was and no one to resolve any differences of opinions. It's similar to the concept of the 100 greatest novels. Experts mostly agree on what should or should not be on the list, but not every list will be exactly the same. TFD (talk) 00:13, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure that analogy entirely works. I wouldn't expect to see much commonality between the top 100 crime books and the top 100 science fiction books. Two lists of crime novels maybe, but again, you could easily mess that up by specifying English language or French language. There isn't so much disagreement in reliable sources as to what constituted the British Empire. I accept, of course, that there is some variation, but Wikipedia's rules guide editors in a particular way so we end up with an article which reflects a broad consensus view of the historical literature. It is relatively easy, therefore, to spot anomalies because the majority of sources don't support them. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:09, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant the 100 greatest novels, not the 100 greatest scifi or crime novels, although it would apply to them too. If you think there is no disagreement about membership, can you tell me the date New Zealand ceased to be a part? TFD (talk) 22:59, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

The link you provided includes both - but that was a cheap point on my part. I should have focused on the subjectivity of any list entitled "greatest". With this topic I think most historians would agree that the opening line of this article provides some objective criteria by which to judge the content, whereas the criteria for a "greatest list" are redefined each time someone wants to publish one. I don't think you can do that with historiography - authors are constrained by previous authors and (arguably) by facts, not opinions.

I wonder if you have maybe deliberately picked a difficult case with NZ - ostensibly straightforward because we have a legal trail, but perhaps still open to interpretation? By the standards of 1947, the 25th of November 1947 could be taken as the point at which NZ became a part of the Commonwealth rather than the Empire, but by the standards of 1986 that Statute was not sufficient - it left some ambiguity as to whether the UK Parliament could still "rule" or "administer" in NZ - so we could say 1 Jan 1987.

But I'm not sure that's relevant. The question isn't about precisely when a country joined/left - it's more about whether they were (or were not) ever ruled or administered by the UK during the period. New Zealand definitely was; Afghanistan was not. Wiki-Ed (talk) 09:55, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

You cannot always decide when a country joined or left the Empire because there are no objective criteria for determining membership. That's because it was not a legal entity, but a number of countries linked to the UK in various ways. Some sources say that the Empire ceased to exist with the independence of India (15 Aug 1947) so NZ could not have been a part of the Empire after than date, and neither could any of the UK's colonies. OTOH, some say it ended with the Suez Crisis, the Battle of Creater City or the transfer of Hong Kong to China.

Incidentally the Statute of Westminster merely acknowledged in legislation what had already been acknowledged in the Balfour Declaration. NZ had already been recognized as an independent country as early as 1920, when it became a founding member of the League of Nations.

TFD (talk) 15:11, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

IIRC, the British (later Australian) Antarctic claims are a result of the Ross, Nimrod and Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expeditions which first explored the area. That is why the other original claimant was Norway, due to Amundsen's exploits. The other South American claimants came later, IIARC, after WW II. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.18.173 (talk) 09:13, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

IIRC, the British claims in Antarctica were not made until after WW II when the possibility of exploiting Antarctica's natural resources such as coal and oil became apparent. The South American post-WW II claims were made based on this factor, forcing the UK to re-state its own claims. Prior to this neither Britain nor Norway had made any official territorial claims in the area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.144.50.186 (talk) 10:07, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

The British claim was made in 1908. The Norwegian claim came about in the 1930s. Celia Homeford (talk) 13:18, 17 December 2018 (UTC)