Talk:Buddy Rich/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Drumming Skills

Although I have only seen videos on youtube and drummerworld.com of Buddy Rich, am I the only one who thinks someone knowledgeable on his drum skills, should write at least one paragraph on his ability as a drummer? I mean, the article does say "worlds greatest drummer", I'm sure many people would want some sort of explanation...I would expand upon his skill myself, but honestly I could not do it any justice. - Anonymous wiki user 4/2/07

I know he is technically incredible, he can be called the "Paganini of drums", you can see that even by watching his videos at drummerworld alone. You can hear his name frequently from some of the greatest drummers of today, especially while talking about such techniques as (the so called) single hand roll.. Unfortunately i'm not knowledgeable enough to write a critique on him, but i'm sure some real drummer can :) btw i don't believe he never had to practice.. i've seen Dave Weckl complain on a video about his single hand roll being neither as fast nor as long as buddy's. Jojo Mayer wrote something on his site about how good buddy's "finger isolation" technique is and that he's practicing to reach that. maybe someone can write an expert opinion on that too :) Ozkaplan 09:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

mystery drummer

On 2007 June 1, an unregistered user (69.229.173.8) added the following statement to the "...popular culture" section:

"...Some people would compare Buddy Rich to Bobby Macklin, one of the greatest modern drummers..."

I have not been able to find any reference to a drummer (great or otherwise) named Bobby Macklin on the web. The statement was immediately flagged as "not verified" but I presume it is unverifiable and I have therefore removed it. Even if someone could produce a reference source identifying Bobby Macklin as "one of the greatest modern drummers", I'm not sure this statement adds anything relevant to the Buddy Rich article so I presume the deletion will not detract from the article. Pugetbill 04:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

DigitalDreamDoor

Hello everyone. I'm a loyal fan of digitaldreamdoor.com, which contains adequately compiled lists of the greatest guitarists, bassists, and drummers in all genres of music. I've recently edited the page's of great drummers to include a reference to their placement on these lists, only to find all of my posts deleted. I've seen references to the DigitalDreamDoor lists on other artists wiki pages, so I would like to ask for permission to include a reference to the website on Buddy Rich's page as well as other muscians'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyroseed13 (talk • contribs) 20:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a Wikipedia expert but I don't think you need to ask "permission" from anyone to include particular references in articles. On the other hand any edits to wikipedia articles should follow the basic rules/guidelines of wikipedia concerning references, links and content (see Wikipedia:About#Wikipedia_content_criteria, Wikipedia:External links, etc.)
The person who removed the digitaldreamdoor.com reference from the Buddy Rich article, made the comment "(removed because it is) non-notable amateur fanspam". I was curious about this as well so went to the digitaldreamdoor.com website and clicked on "about this site". Here is what the digitaldreamdoor.com web site's owner / author writes,
"...My name is Lew and this website is my hobby... ...DigitalDreamDoor.com is a privately owned, personal website..."
and
"...Disclaimer: There is nothing 'Official' about these lists. They are compiled by the 'editor' using the stated criteria, and revised considering the competent suggestions of visitors to this website only..."
Given these notes and disclaimers, the lists are probably not considered "authoritative" and are not relevant / appropriate for a wikipedia article. Pugetbill 15:58, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Odd Marine Corps service comments

I removed the new section (below) that had been added to this article today by user, "A2forten". The claims are unsourced, not written from a neutral point of view, and, given a quick review of web-based sources, may not be verifiable / may be incorrect (although if properly sourced and if completely re-written from a neutral point of view, this information could of course be re-inserted into the article.)

According to most sources, Rich served in the U.S. Marine Corps from 1942 to 1944 but did not see active combat. Some sources refer to a 'medical' discharge in 1944 but I haven't found any sources that refer to Rich's discharge being related to wearing an officer's uniform.

"Buddy was in the Marine Corps. He was discharged from the Marines after being caught wearing an officers uniform as a "private," which was looked down upon. He always thought he was better than the rank of a private, and he was lucky not to be put in jail. Although his time serving can not be under appreciated, he is thanked for serving and his life took another honorable turn to success in the music industry. His next chapter in life lead him to the Big Band success that we all know him for."

Pugetbill (talk) 18:18, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Parkinson show

This must be an error:

Buddy Rich remained active until the end of his life, appearing with his Big Band on Michael Parkinson's British talk show Parkinson only a few weeks prior to his death.

Rich did appear on the British Wogan show a few months before his death, at the end of October 1986, but the Parkinson gig (in 1982) was a few weeks from the end of that series' original run; the series name was not revived until 1998. I am going by the details on the imdb site. Philip Cross (talk) 23:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Some mid-to-major re-ordering and clean-up

I did some major re-arranging of text today to try to improve the logical flow of the article's first two sections. I tried to retain most of the original text although sometimes placing "chunks" in very different sections of the article. And I did delete an unreferenced section on an audition with Vic Schoen's orchestra as I could not find a reference (and it seemed a bit redundant given the recent addition of the Bobby Shew quote). Also deleted was a segment regarding an (apparently non-notable) 1972 performance at the Cellar Door in Washington DC. I also inserted the direct quote from Bobby Shew on Rich's music reading ability - replacing the previous text describing the same reference. My apologies if I accidentally did any other damage.Pugetbill (talk) 02:29, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Where was Rich born?

Although almost all references cite "Brooklyn" (New York City) as Rich's birthplace, I saw an excerpt from Traps the Drum Wonder,... [http://www.amazon.com/Traps-Drum-Wonder-Buddy-Hardcover/dp/1888408030/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b (link)] in which Mel Tormé writes that Rich's parents had moved back to Albany, New York sometime prior to his birth. I don't have access to the book to re-check this but will try to find a clarification. Pugetbill (talk) 16:13, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

According to the NY Times Buddy Rich obituary, Rich was, "...born in the Sheepshead Bay section of Brooklyn in 1917." This ref was added to the article today. Pugetbill (talk) 17:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Vic Schoen Orchestra audition

I removed (again) today the following section added by user "Kak500" (no registered user/talk page). The same lines were removed previously after being flagged for lacking citations (and for being written from a non-Neutral POV)

"At 21, Rich had an audition with the Vic Schoen Orchestra (the band that backed the Andrews Sisters). The rehearsal quickly became a disaster after it was obvious that the new drummer could not read music. Schoen was nice enough to meet with Rich afterwards to teach him how to read music. This meeting became very tense and the drummer 'ran out of the room.' Schoen later commented that 'Buddy Rich was terrified about learning to read music.'"

I have been unable to find any reliable reference / citation for this incident. I suppose if a suitable reference were cited, this could be re-written from a more neutral POV (Point Of View) although it would still be a fairly insignificant addition to the article. Overall it seems like a relatively minor event in Rich's life. Rich's inability to read music (at least to read music well) is mentioned in the article in two other places (most notably the Bobby Shew quote - with citation) so this audition story doesn't seem to add much/anything to this section of the article.

The updated text states simply,

"At 21, Rich participated in his first major recording with the Vic Schoen Orchestra (the band that backed the Andrews Sisters)" [1]

Pugetbill (talk) 15:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Rich's Billing as "The World's Greatest Drummer"

Today an editor objected to the statement in the opening paragraph, "Rich was billed as The World's Greatest Drummer..." because (in his/her opinion) it was an example of "weasel words" usage. I may be misunderstanding the specific objection but I don't think "weasel words" is a problem here. The fact that Rich was billed as "The World's Greatest Drummer" is (I presume) not being disputed. He was "billed" that way. Of course that doesn't necessarily prove that anyone except Rich (and Rich's promoters and publicists) necessarily agreed with that claim (although, in fact, many people did agree), but the phrase "World's greatest drummer" was commonly used in reference to & in promotions of Rich. In the same sense, I could promote myself as the world's greatest singer and, even though no one on this planet would agree, the fact that I used that phrase in my promotions would still be true and verifiable (and 'notable' if I was as famous as Buddy Rich). The editor's proposed replacement sentence - "Rich is described by Allmusic as 'the world's greatest drummer'" - doesn't seem (to me) to be a satisfactory statement in this kind of article "lead" paragraph. The fact that Scott Yanow, in his allmusic.com bio of Rich, believes that,

"When it came to technique, speed, power, and the ability to put together incredible drum solos, Buddy Rich lived up to the billing of 'the world's greatest drummer'" (allmusic link)

is (I presume) not the reason the allmusic citation was given here. I presume the citation was referenced as verification that Rich was, in fact, commonly billed as "The World's Greatest Drummer" - not to provide evidence that Scott Yanow or allmusic.com agreed with that assessment. Pugetbill (talk) 18:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed description of non-notable Johnny Carson appearance / event

I removed the following 4-sentence addition by unregistered user 71.142.134.146.
The event described seems relatively non-notable, lacks citations and is written in a very un-encyclopedic style. I suppose it could be re-written and, with citations added, could be re-inserted into the article - although, again, this particular event does not seem notable enough to include in the article.

I simply have to add that rich did use a wooden shell rogers dynasonic...one of the most articulate snare drums every built. On one appearance on the Johnny Carson Tonight show, buddy did a great solo, fellow drummer Johnny Carson, had rigged up the drums with at least one paper drum head. So perfect was buddy's technique that he didn't break it for quite awhile But when he did, he was genuinely surprised. And when he looked in the drum he found "slingerland" bumper stickers and put one on his head.

Pugetbill (talk) 22:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

discography notes / album numbers

I suspect this Buddy Rich discography (even excluding the many 'compilation' albums released over the years) is not comprehensive but it is sometimes difficult to determine if a specific album title is an "original" release or merely a later compilation album or a (re-named) re-issue. For the benefit of wikipedia editors researching additions / changes to this discography, I am adding here a list of album label numbers I have compiled for the albums currently in the discography.

Pugetbill (talk) 17:00, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Last Known Taped Performance...

The 1986(?) release, Last Known Taped Live Performance at Grendals Lair, Philadelphia PA.: December 8, 1986 (World Pacific #???/ Jazz Band #???) may be an amateur / unauthorized / "Bootleg recording" of Buddy Rich at Grendel's (not Grendal's?, not Grendale?) Lair in Philadelphia. Does anyone have a source that indicates this is an authorized recording / release? If not, perhaps it could be listed under a "bootleg" section (although I would probably vote to just leave it out of the discography). Same question / comment applies to Buddy Rich & His Big Band at Stadshalle Leonberg, Germany... Pugetbill (talk) 16:04, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Multiple Tuff Dudes?

Groove Merchant Records released a "two-fer" Buddy Rich album titled Tuff Dude (GM 4407) which combined two previously released Groove Merchant albums, The Roar of '74 and Very Live at Buddy's Place. There is also another, different (?) album titled Tuff Dude from LRC that may be a slightly different version of Very Live at Buddy's Place. The recording location and date(s) seem to be about the same (May 1974 at "Buddy's Place") and the included tracks are the same - except on the LRC release, "Cardin Blue" is called "2nd Avenue Blues" and a seventh track, "Donna Lee" is added. However the playing times for most tracks are (sometimes very) different in some listings so this may be a different recording of the same songs? Perhaps the LRC release includes alternate (longer) takes of the same songs? Does anyone have a source for more info on this LRC Tuff Dude release and its relationship to Groove Merchant's Very Live at Buddy's Place? Some sources indicate the two albums are effectively the same but then why the sometimes large track time differences? compare track times at [http://www.amazon.com/Very-Live-at-Buddys-Place/dp/B0002VL006/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1240670230&sr=1-1 amazon.com] and allmusic.com

The Drum Battle

1960's The Drum Battle: Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich at JATP, is probably best considered a "compilation" (or partial re-issue?) since all tracks were previously released on Jazz at the Philharmonic, Vol. 15 (Mercury MG Vol.15). Only two of the six tracks include Rich on drums (5 of 6 tracks have Gene Krupa on drums) and only one track includes both ("Drum Battle"). Pugetbill (talk) 16:04, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

JATP occured in the 1950's, not the 60's. Norman Granz, the founder, stopped producing it in the 1960's. Buddy Rich's activities for the 1960's were: 1) touring the Far East with a small group, sponsored the State Dept 2) A return to Harry James (1962-1966-according to his wife, Marie, in an interview from his video biography from DCI). There was a 1965 studio recording by Dot Records, that appears to be out-of-print. Twentieth Century Fox put out a 30 minute television special, "The Big Bands", featuring Buddy soloing on "Caravan" and "Two O'Clock Jump" on a Rogers drum kit.
-Andrew Chaplowitz (I do not know what "typing four tildes means)
Hi Andrew. I think you may have misinterpreted the first line above. "1960's The Drum Battle:..." means, "The Drum Battle:... album, which was released in 1960,..."
The Verve compilation album The Drum Battle: Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich at JATP was released in 1960. You are of course correct that the JATP recordings on the album were not made in 1960 (they were recorded in New York City in 1952 and were originally released on a different album, Jazz at the Philharmonic, Vol. 15 = Mercury MG Vol.15). But since this is a discography listing, regardless of when the songs themselves were recorded, this particular compilation album, The Drum Battle: Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich at JATP (Verve MGV 8369), was not released until 1960 so qualifies as a 1960 compilation album.
Pugetbill (talk) 01:08, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
PS - inserting four tildes 
~~~~
at the end of an entry in a wikipedia talk page will automatically write in the date, time, and your "signature" – your wikipedia user name and links to your Wikipedia User page and (user) Talk page (if you are a registered user) – so readers know who submitted the comments, when. If you are an anonymous user (do not yet have a Wikipedia user ID) then inserting the four tildes probably won't do anything. Best regards,
Pugetbill (talk) 01:08, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Speed claims and fancruft

This sentence has multiple problems:

"When performing a single-stroke roll, Rich could be clocked at up to 20 strokes per second,[8] a feat now only being approached decades later by Mike Mangini, Jojo Mayer, Matt Smith, Connor Allan and others.[citation needed]"

20 strokes per second is 1200 beats per minute. This was exceeded by Mike Mangini in 2005. But.... the citation only links to the listing of a song recording, this does verify any speed claim. You could measure it yourself, but that is 'original research' - and I make it a lot less than 1200 bmp. Mike Mangini and many other drummers have verifiable world records because they entered official speed competitions and were measured electronically. I have often read that Buddy Rich's fastest speed was around 950 beats per minute in the songs he has recorded (about 16 beats per second). It is possible to find links to sources that state this - but difficult to find any to meet the required standard for wikipedia. Maybe he could go faster, but he didn't enter such competitions, was never measured under controlled conditions (to my knowledge) and therefore any such claims can not be verified. The world record measures drummers over a full minute. Maybe Buddy Rich could attain high speeds in short bursts - but again this is unverified speculation. 1000 beats per minute was exceeded, officially in a verified competition, at least 12 years ago. Very many drummers can now exceed this speed, so the '...feat now only being approached' is pure fancruft. All this can be verified from the "Worlds Fastest Drummer" website.

Who is Connor Allan? Can't find any mention of this name in drumming circles. Jo Jo Meyer is a fantastic drummer, but I don't believe he holds any speed records. Matt Smith holds the under 16 yrs old record of 1106 bpm. Not sure why that is relevant.

Unless anyone can provide citations to verify these claims for Buddy Rich I suggest this whole sentence be deleted. SAHBfan (talk) 16:43, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Removed uncited speed statements. Pugetbill (talk) 20:32, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

You Tube, etc. video links (Muppet Show, Johnny Carson, etc.)

External links to YouTube video files or other sites with obvious or likely copyright violations should be removed from this article. This is in accordance with Wikipedia copyright guidelines

from WP:C#Linking to copyrighted works:
"...If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States (Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry). Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors..."

Although YouTube, in its Terms of Service, forbids its members to upload copyright-infringing material, and requires its members to have authorization from the copyright holder to upload content, many YouTube members violate these Terms of Service. Most infringing content is obviously infringing - content owned by broadcast television networks, motion picture studios, music recording companies, and educational institutions, is typically not authorized to appear on YouTube. Pugetbill 22:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The fact that the Wikipedia article on youtube links to youtube shows how head up the butt silly this idea is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.231 (talk) 07:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Release date for live recording, Europe '77

I have not bean able to find an authoritative / reliable source for the release date for the Europe '77 album (released in Europe(?) by "Magic" Records). But I did move the album listing from the "Studio and live albums..." sub-section to the "Posthumous releases..." sub-section of the discography section. This is because, although I have not yet found a good source for the release date, when investigating, it becomes apparent that this album exists in CD format only and has never been released as a vinyl LP. This would indicate that the album was released sometime after 1982/1983. The earliest "claims" for a release date (other than "1977," which is not possible for a Compact Disc) I have found, indicate a 1993 release. I will continue to research this question but I hope some other wikipedia editors have better luck than I in finding a source for this release date. In the meantime, I think it makes sense to at least provisionally place this album in the "Posthumous releases..." section as it appears very unlikely that this album was released before the CD era (1983+) and before the death of Buddy Rich in 1987. Pugetbill (talk) 23:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

nick rich

former Falling in Reverse drummer, Nick Rich was his son and started to learn to play them after being inspired by his grandad — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.95.51 (talk) 00:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Discography

Does anyone out there have a discography for Buddy Rich - however limited. Thanx. --Technopat 11:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

For discographies, All Music Guide (AMG) is usually a good place to start. They list a lot of Buddy Rich albums (see link). Pugetbill 18:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Pugetbill. --Technopat 18:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, I didn't see a mention of the album '[http://www.amazon.com/Bird-Diz-Charlie-Parker/dp/B0000047D3/ref=ntt_mus_ep_dpi_4 Bird and Diz]', either here or on Allmusic. I think it's a significant album in his career, as he's playing with Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, and Thelonious Monk, all giants of bop; it's a solid album, and a great example of Rich's versatility. Also, I have never heard anyone hit the drums so hard in my life. Is there some way to squeeze this one into the entry? KimVanA (talk) 20:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The discography in this article does not (yet) include an "As sideman" section - which is where Bird and Diz would be listed (along with, I presume, dozens of other albums that Rich contributed to). Of course anyone is welcome to start such a section. I'd start by scouring databases like those at www.jazzdisco.org for mentions of Rich as the drummer on other people's recordings. Rich contributed to a lot of Norman Granz' productions for Clef / Norgran / Verve in the 1950s I believe (Jazz at the Philharmonic, etc.). if anyone does start this, I'd suggest splitting the "Discography" section off and creating a completely new Wikipedia article titled, Buddy Rich discography. Pugetbill (talk) 16:22, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Bop?

Under "genres", bebop is listed and Rich has been placed in the category "Bebop drummers". I'm aware he occasionally worked with bop musicians but could he really be said to be a proponent himself? Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Buddy Rich black belt

The Larry King interview is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWiqcWKKSaA The relevant section starts at 5:15 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.28.241 (talk) 00:13, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

In re: Scabeba comment left at my talk page

Reproducing here, a comment left by this new editor (see [1]) at my talk page:

  • "Please do not edit my edits on the buddy rich page...I am his daughter and know a lot more about him than you. Leave it alone!!!" (see [2])

I will investigate, but want others in the community to be able to comment as well. (I do not even recall the edits made, but they were likely to call needed attention to citations, or to clarify language in the context of a citation review. Will report more once I have a chance to check.) Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 19:45, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Though I have a vague recollection of possibly adding the sentence "While Rich typically held his sticks using the traditional grip, he could also play using the matched grip" (which, if I added, would have been referenced), I have reviewed the edit history and I can see no edits contributed, certainly none recently. Rather, for inexplicable reasons, I as a User seem to have been confounded either with NeilN , or Materialscientist. I have left a note at each of their talk pages, and at Scabeba's, indicating my lack of involvement in this. I leave it to these two experienced Wikipedians to carefully and kindly guide this clear new user and understandably concerned party to an appropriate understanding of Wikipedia practice. Cheers. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 19:56, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Personal life

In interviews he spoke of a daughter. This article has nothing on a spouse or children. These should be added.Dogru144 (talk) 01:19, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

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Skimpy content

The three paragraphs in Jazz that discuss his pre 1944 work are lacking any meaningful information. But the time he joined Dorsey in 39 he was already a star, and he was a star there. These years need to be expanded. I don't know enough to do it, but I know it should be done. Wis2fan (talk) 03:47, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

  1. ^ Encyclopedia of Jazz - Buddy (Bernard) Rich
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