Talk:Buffalo Bill/Archive 1

Discussion[edit]

According to his biography (http://www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg/1/0/0/3/10030/10030-8.txt) He was born 1845 not 1846 -- --Harno 23:51, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC). check

Details of Debt need corrected[edit]

This article contains both the following statements -

"Contrary to popular belief Cody was not destitute, but his once great fortune had dwindled to under $100,000."

"Buffalo Bill was actually in debt at the time of his death[citation needed] which is why the word "defunct" used in the second verse is so effective. "

Clearly one or the other is false. Attention to detail people. One needs to be removed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.42.50 (talk) 09:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

wtf?[edit]

My great-great-great-great uncle Buffalo Bill didn't claim to have scalped a Cheyenne warrior,he Shot and Scalped the Cheyenne Chief Yellow Hair (mistaken as Yellow Hand)in a duel, but when i changed on his page it reverted as vandalism. WTF? Read any book on him people!

Yeah right... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.42.50 (talk) 09:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

yeah right.[edit]

you are wrong zoe, he was born in 1846 not 1845. look at another dictionary. a real book, and not a website, ok?

Buffalo Bill's only known biography that he wrote does say that he was born in 1845. Who are you going to believe, a text book that was so wrong that it could have said It wasn't Custer's fault for his death, or the man himself who this page is about? Bcody 13:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sources section[edit]

What's that 8 supposed to be? --71.112.94.131 00:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

???=[edit]

removed from article "Bizarrely, evidence suggests that Buffalo Bill was the official guest at the opening of a shooting club in Urmston in the United Kingdom. The club has since been demolished to make way for housing." whats bizzare about it...its seems like a non-sequitor

It should be removed because it is of almost no importance. Bill was the official quest of many, many places and events - should they all be listed or are you implying it should be listed simply because it happened in the UK? The club does not even exist anymore making it even more trivial —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.42.50 (talk) 09:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wild Bill couldn't have performed in the Wild West[edit]

The dates don't work. Buffalo Bill launched his Wild West in 1883, according to this article, and Wild Bill was shot dead in 1876.

He was never in the Wild West Show. Wild Bill did perform in plays with Buffalo Bill. Wild Bill was known to play pranks on the actors, and after one night Buffalo Bill told him that he had to stop or he would be kicked out. Wild Bill left in the middle of the show. A few days later Buffalo Bill found Wild Bill in a bar and Wild Bill apologized. Wild Bill then went out west where he was shot in 1876. Bcody 13:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If I might add, it was reported that when the theatre stage show that both James Butler "Wild Bill", and William F. "Buffalo Bill" Cody were in performing in New York, "Wildbill" entered a Bar-pool hall, and was challenged by a patron, resulting in a bar room brawl. "Wildbill" was taken to the city jail, where "Buffalo Bill", identified him, posted bail, or got him out... where he later thanked "Buffalo Bill" for his help and apologized?

It is alledged that both William F. Cody and James Butler Hickok might have been "very distant cousins". This has (is) been researched, but at this time, it is nether disputed nor verified?

71.106.215.70 (talk) 04:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Aedwardmoch71.106.215.70 (talk)[reply]

Relative[edit]

This dude's related to me! Seriously. He's dead, I know. But he was my relative. I swear. —The-thing (Talk) (Stuff I did) 15:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

     He's related to me too!! My famous ancestor!

So? My family has a direct, and easily proven, relationship to Elizabeth Mure who was married to Richard II King of Scotland. So what? It does not matter and no one cares —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.42.50 (talk) 09:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some of my ansters came over on the Mayflower in 1620 ...... & I'm a pinch of native Americans....... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.177.100 (talk) 23:01, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

7th Kansas Cavalry Regiment[edit]

I have a very interesting newspaper article sitting here withme. I learned a few weeks ago that Buffalo Bill served along side my great-great-grandfather in the 7th Kansas Cavalry Regiment and I have a very very old newspaper article from when he visited my great-great-grandfather... Any suggestions on how to / if to add it. I also have some other information I might add.--Azslande 08:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A single non-important visit to the 7th Cavalry Regiment has no revelance to this article. It should not be added unless you can prove and verify some significant historical importance —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.42.50 (talk) 09:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quite Interesting...[edit]

I have no source available, but on a British programme QI, it announced evidence that actually, Buffalo Bill slayed bison, not buffalo, due to the obvious problem that there were no buffalo in North America at the time! Unfortunately, nobody could tell the difference. This is all well and good, but without a source, I ought not put it on the page, unless it were in a rumoured section. Unless anybody else can find out the same thing? Alex Holowczak 18:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's well known that the American bison was erroneously called the "buffalo" in America. Wahkeenah 21:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's okay then! Alex Holowczak 18:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

p

The whole Buffalo are not Bison nonsense is just that modern revisionist non-sense. Bison and Buffalo most definitely are the exact same animal. A WATER buffalo is just that a water buffalo - which as the name states is a different animal.

At the time when the people all across North and South America were calling them Buffalo knew it to be correct, it is people now who have it wrong and are judging the people of the past based on the fact they have changed the name afterwards.

A Bufflo IS a Bison, and a Bison IS a Buffalo, even today. Anyone who states otherwise is ignorant of the facts —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.42.50 (talk) 09:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are serious differences between them:

If you can't see it, then I think there must be something wrong with your eyes. - Oisín^(Message) 15:22, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stating that a buffalo is a bison and visa versa does not make it so --

Popular culture might have adopted that name in local parts of the world, but, as one came to be named before the existence of the other was known, and as the two are barely remote cousins despite both being included under a large group of hoofed animals that also includes antelopes and goats, calling the American bison a buffalo does not make the bison a buffalo -- or the buffalo a bison -- unless one would argue that the water buffalo can equally be called a water bison -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.147.235.94 (talk) 04:47, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Buffalo Bill" Eve - Interesting if true[edit]

The long digression at the end of the article about William Eve, another "Buffalo Bill," belongs in its own article, not in the article on Buffalo Bill Cody. I would move it myself, but there are no sources cited, so I don't know if it is factual or not. Anyone know about Buffalo Bill Eve? Plazak 13:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced Story[edit]

Moved from the main article - might qualify if it is cleaned up and sourced - CosmicPenguin (Talk) 23:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

At another time a man came to the Cody home with a gun and knife and demanded that Mrs. Cody fix him dinner. As he was waiting he told the poor woman that he had come to kill that "damn abolitionist husband of yours" and where was he? Mrs. Cody said he was not at home and she was not likely to see him soon. Waiting for his meal he sat and shapen a knife while drinking whiskey. Mary Cody took William and his sister Julia aside. Isaac Cody was up stairs sick in bed. She told the two children William 8 years old and his sister Julia about 10 years old to get a gun and an ax. If the man started up the stairs William was to kill him with the gun and if he missed Julia was to get him with the ax. The two young children waited on the stair. The Man at his dinner and after falling asleep he woke and left, stealing the Cody's horses as he went.

Removed from main article[edit]

[1]

It was a myth that Sitting Bull ever came to England. Buffalo Bill in Liverpool. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CosmicPenguin (talk • contribs) 21:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Buffalo/Bison Hunting[edit]

There seems to be no mention of his hunting here. I thought that the huge number of bovines he slew was what he was best known for. Epeeist smudge 08:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that too. He slayed huge numbers of buffalo, and yet there is no mention of this here. Shouldn't we look at both the positive and negative side of this man? 81.151.74.90 (talk) 22:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i couldn't believe it either as i read this article. how on earth can this issue remain unmentioned? it's the same in the german version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.149.208 (talk) 10:18, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Buffalo Bill" earned his name as a result of his skill as a buffalo hunter. It is a matter of "quality", not "quantity." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.133.140.5 (talk) 18:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reference to living relatives[edit]

Removed "Currently his descendants Sean Soltys and Benjamin White attend Southington High School in Southington, CT", an utterly unimportant detail, from the Legacy section. Sean Lindsay (talk) 23:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was goingto remove the text as it is vanity of NN. I see where the text is removed in the wiki format, but despite my refreshes it still shows on my screen. 71.66.254.83 (talk) 02:28, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Disney Village Wild West Show[edit]

I removed the paragraph about the Wild West Show at Disney Village. While it shares elements with Buffalo Bill's show, it seems to me to be a re-creation of a western show, which isn't that unique. The same exact text was added to the Disney Village page, and I think it works better there, anyway. The section was added by User:Earlycreek which is also the name on many of the posts on the URL posted in the article, so there may be a tad bit of promotion and WP:COI. I can be convinced that something should be added back into the article in a condensed form if somebody would like to try. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 22:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response from Earlycreek:

I understand your position regarding the paragraph I added to the Buffalo Bill page. I take your point that the wording could be construed to have promotional elements and COI, especially considering I do have connections with the show in question (more below) but I think inclusion of all or most of the text may be justifiable regardless. Please allow me to explain my thinking:

My original intent was to add information about the show to a Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show or Wild West Show page, where it might have been more appropriate, but those links all point directly to Buffalo Bill so I didn't have that option.

I suggest that two separate pages may be more appropriate to correctly document the two subjects: one for Buffalo Bill and another for Wild West Shows. My argument is that Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show was the precursor to many other Wild West Shows and arguably was largely responsible for creating the romantic myth of the American Cowboy that went on to become the basis not just for Western Cinema but for the underlying cultural movement that defined and in many ways still defines The American Male. The marketing genius of Ned Buntline and W.F. Cody and the impact of their efforts should not be underestimated. I feel that in emphasizing the impact of Buffalo Bill as opposed to other notable people of his era (Wild Bill, Custer, Doc Holiday, Jesse James, etc.) it's important to emphasize the enduring impact of his Wild West Show. Noting the existence and enduring success of Disney’s reincarnation is important in providing that emphasis. To not mention Disney’s reincarnation would be to discredit the enduring impact of Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Show legacy.

Although I understand your assumptions, I argue that Disney’s reincarnation is not just another Wild West Show. Firstly, Disney purchased rights to exploit the name and script of the original "Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show”. Apparently the branding genius of W.F. Cody and Ned Buntline was not lost on Michael Eisner, who rightly recognized that money spent on securing the original name and script was money well spent. Disney’s production appropriately reflects the grandeur and authenticity of the original: it is permanently housed in a building designed by famed architect Frank Gehry, was directed by Broadway Director Robert Carson, has a musical score written by Oscar-winning composer Alan Menkin, and so on. To my knowledge, no other existing Wild West Show remotely compares.

And lest the Disney brand be misleading, a stark difference separates the polished, tassle-hanging, line-dancer-type performers which you might assume would define a Disney treatment of Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, and the rough, raw, reality of our show. Our cast includes authentic Rodeo Cowboys, Indians, horses, bison, and long-horn cattle imported from Wyoming, Colorado, Texas, Alberta Canada, Mexico, and so on, off ranches and Indian Reservations. Some of the original Crow Indians in our show didn't even speak English. I, for example, was born in Sheridan, Wyoming, raised on a ranch, and spent my teenage summers packing mules and guiding hunters and fishing expeditions in the most remote part of the lower 48 states, in the Bridger-Teton Wilderness west of Cody (not completely unlike W.F. Cody). If one considers that “Buffalo Bill” the Ned Buntline creation was a mythical character based on the real experiences of a real personage of the West, one could argue that he still exists to an extent (I portray Buffalo Bill in Disney’s production). Others are at least as authentic as me. Our Sitting Bull is a Crow Indian who was born about 10 miles from where Custer was killed. Another cowboy spent last summer and fall in the same Wilderness area I was in as a teen. Some of our Native Americans perform traditional songs and sacred ceremonies backstage, beyond the public eye, as a part of their culture to mourn deaths and to celebrate certain events. These types of backgrounds, while not universal, are fairly typical among our cast.

While your comments regarding promotion and COI may initially appear justified, my motive for submitting the paragraph in question was founded not in my connection to the Disney production but in my personal connection to the lifestyle, history, and landscape of Northern Wyoming, where much of the story of Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Show unfolded and where I was born and raised. I feel explaining the enduring impact of Buffalo Bill’s legacy by mentioning Disney’s production is important in defining the man and his influence on our world’s culture.

Perhaps another editor’s wording would seem less promotional but still convey the importance behind the fact that Buffalo Bill and his show still exist in an incarnation that very much evokes the spirit, energy, and authenticity of the original. Earlycreek (talk) 01:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt anybody questions the attention to detail and quality that Disney would put into any of its shows; no doubt that it is a fine show. I too grew up in northern Wyoming, and I know very well the thirst that visitors have for the west that they think exists, and so are suckers for staged shootouts, Native American dances, and wild west shows. Certainly anybody can run a stagecoach around an arena and call it a show. We certainly don't want the Buffalo Bill / Wild West article to end up being a directory of these. All that said, you said something very important: Firstly, Disney purchased rights to exploit the name and script of the original "Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show”. That is the key - that make this not just a Wild West show, but the Wild West Show which makes it immediately notable. I will need your help finding a reliable source giving us the year and details when Disney purchased the rights (certainly it had to have been reported in a trade rag), and then we can add something like this:

In <YEAR>, Disney purchased the rights to the name and script of the original "Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show" and created a re-enactment which plays at Disney Village in Disneyland Resort Paris. The show attempts to faithfully recreate an authentic experience, including many of the famous elements of the original show such as the Pony Express, Indian Attack, and Stagecoach Robbery.

I think that is a very reasonable thing for the article. And I also agree with you that at some point, separating Buffalo Bill and the Wild West Show might be a good idea, assuming we can accumulate enough information about the wild west show to keep it from being a permanent stub. Thanks for discussing this - and good luck with your show. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 15:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your comments. On my end, I will try to find some Disney contacts to help verify my assertion regarding the rights to the show. I think a substantial article could be written regarding the Wild West Show based on it's relationship to modern-day Rodeos and the romantic myth of the Cowboys, Indians, and the American West that, as you mention, drives much of the tourism industry in the West. 82.249.36.237 (talk) 00:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any statements about the Disney production and its being influenced by Buffalo Bill's show need, like all assertions in Wikipedia, sources not from participants (first person) but RS - reliable sources: published secondary accounts, preferably from peer-reviewed journals or books from academic presses. The West and its influence in modern American culture has been extensively studied. This is not a matter of editors' opinions on this page, and their doing OR (Original Research) to interview people to satisfy their opinions.Parkwells (talk) 19:38, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

False story about Cossacks in the "Wild West" show[edit]

The riders in fact were Georgians, from the western part of Georgia - Guria, and not Cossacks as it is considered. They were wrongly named "Russian Cossacks" , as Georgia was part of Russian empire then. I wonder why there is still incorrect reports about that matter, as it was documentary proved long time ago. For more information see - www.georgians.ge. Kind regards --Rastrelli F (talk) 06:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

William Frederick "Buffalo Bill" Cody Bio by Helen Cody Wetmore...[edit]

It might be noted that a biography on William F. Cody, Called "Last Of The Great Scouts" by Helen Cody Wetmore,the sister of William F. Cody claiming the Cody family were of royal blood, going back to "Milesius", King of Spain, by way of one of his Son's "Heremon", of the royal Celtic dynasty of what would be Ireland. Other Irish-Celtic varients are, Coddy, Coidy, and Connelly, etc. A possible Spanish and/or French varient of the name Cody could also be Costa, or Coty, Cote, and possibly Cota or Cotta? 71.106.215.70 (talk) 03:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Aedwardmoch71.106.215.70 (talk) 03:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In a book by Claire Wombacher called "Codyview, Buffalo Bill's Link with Duluth", she reveals that Buffalo Bill Cody owned a house in Duluth, Minnesota. It was built by his sister, Nellie Wetmore. The mansion rested on the Bay View Heights hillside, overlooking Lake Superior and was first intended for the retired participants of Bill's Wild West Show. When Nellie couldn't pay the mortgage, Bill rescued her and it went into his name for ten years, as evidenced by the Title's history. To this day, this part of Duluth is referred to as Cody, and the main street through the neighborhood is Cody Street. I haven't read the book but learned about it in a local newspaper article a few years back. Presumably Buffalo Bill visited Duluth at least once. This might merit more research and inclusion in his biography.

Douginduluth (talk) 03:31, 24 May 2009 (UTC)douginduluthDouginduluth (talk) 03:31, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

"The Devil in the White City" is a historical novel, not suitable as a source for facts about Cody's lack of participation in the 1893 Chicago World's Fair. Speculations need other sources.Parkwells (talk) 19:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is not sufficient as a source about WWII publisher's allegations of Cody's Italian birth:

"The false Italian pedigree of Buffalo Bill is one of the many items unearthed by Umberto Eco during his extensive research into the pulp literature and popular culture of Fascist Italy, undertaken for writing The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana." Did Eco refer to this in his book and if so, on what page? If not, where did the assertion come from?Parkwells (talk) 20:34, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wondering why there is no mention of the first Buffalo Bill[edit]

One of the founders of Wichita Kansas was William E. Mathewson. From 1860 forward, he was known as Buffalo Bill even though his modesty precluded him from discussing his buffalo hunts where he gathered meat for the starving settlers. A fuller write-up of him from the Kansas State Historical Society is available at - [[2] Another article at "Legends of Kansas" - http://www.legendsofkansas.com/williammathewson.html And from the book "Kansas: a cyclopedia of state history, embracing events, institutions, industries, counties, cities, towns, prominent persons, etc." - http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/archives/1912/m3/mathewson_william.html

FYI - I have Mr. Mathewson's wall safe in my house. For this reason, I have done a fair amount or research on him. His name is still prominent in Wichita where a street and a school are named after him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UnstableAl (talk • contribs) 20:35, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Our local Shrine center has the calliope used in Buffalo Bill's show in 1906 and 07. It was later sold to Barnum and Bailey Circus and repainted whit the circus motif. Somewhere I have seen a picture of it when Buffalo Bill had it. If someone has a copy of that picture I would really appreciate it. You may contact me at gary@bigwf.com. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.219.233.161 (talk) 16:27, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Some other events[edit]

This article leaves out some interesting events..such as the encounter with "yellow hand" as noted in-Winners of the West Volume 6 Number 10 ST. JOSEPH, MISSOURI September 30, 1929 Transcribed from CD recorded 8/99 Keystone, SD 97.101.49.28 (talk) 11:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC) 10/15/2012 jgorl804@aim.com[reply]

Cody's genealogy[edit]

It might be noted that a biography on William F. Cody, Called "Last Of The Great Scouts" by Helen Cody Wetmore,the sister of William F. Cody claiming the Cody family were of royal blood, going back to "Milesius", King of Spain, by way of one of his Son's "Heremon", of the royal Celtic dynasty of what would be Ireland. Other Irish-Celtic varients are, Coddy, Coidy, and Connelly, etc. A possible Spanish and/or French varient of the name Cody could also be Costa, or Coty, Cote, and possibly Cota or Cotta? 71.106.215.70 (talk) 03:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Aedwardmoch71.106.215.70 (talk) 03:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Costa is an Italian and a Spanish surname, not French, Cotta is an Italian surname, not French. In addition, these etymologies are difficult to support : Costa and Cotta do not sound like Cody at all. Cody is also a French surname found in the old deeds and still used nowadays [3][4], but it does not have anything to do with Buffalo Bill. Sources say that the Codys originated from Jersey and their original surname was Le Caudé [5], old spelling for Lecaudé and Lecaudey which is a Norman surname [6] : Philippe Le Caudé emigrated to America and his son was then called Joseph Cody. The source is The Cody Family Handbook, printed by the Cody Family Association 1941, Descendants of Phillip & Martha Cody. (mistakes : first, it is not Le Caude but Le Caudé and the pronounciation of Caudé in Norman-French is quite similar to Cody, second, Jersey is not England, not even UK, but Normandy). I do not know if we can trust this source, but the Caudé > Cody makes sense. Further back the family maybe descended from a Le Caudé who may have emigrated from Montpinchon, because he was a Huguenot [7]. This village is located in continental Normandy, close to the famous US D-Day beaches (strange coincidence). Nortmannus (talk) 02:44, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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