Talk:CCCP Fedeli alla linea
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the CCCP Fedeli alla linea article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
| This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
 | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||
Requested move 2 January 2023[edit]
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Page not moved. There was no consensus for a move. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane talk 16:30, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
CCCP Fedeli alla linea → CCCP - Fedeli alla linea – the correct spelling of the band’s name has got the hyphen (compare the page on it.wikipedia and the website) EISaxo (talk) 12:00, 31 December 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 20:56, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
This is a contested technical request (permalink). Kj cheetham (talk) 11:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- @ElSaxo: Wikipedia does not care what the official name is. We care about what the most often used name is, even if it is incorrect. UtherSRG (talk) 12:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- hi, I am puzzled by your statement. This is just about a hyphen-minus, it is not a matter of, for example, scientific name vs. common name (Canis familiaris - dog) or given name vs. stage name (Reginald Kenneth Dwight - Elton John), right? In this case both spellings could be equally used, and if the difference between them is only a hyphen there is nothing strange if is chosen the most proper of the two names. I do not think, also, that there is a way to determine for certain if the most common spelling in English is with ot without it, I am quite sure too that there is not so much difference between their occurrences. However, the spelling with the hyphen is not used only in the official site but also on the main music websites: Spotify AllMusic Genius Discogs. But anyway the rule of the common name is not so absolute, for example it is not applied to any Italian soccer team because, to name a few, "Juventus F.C." is not more common than just "Juventus", the same goes for "A.C. Milan", "Genoa C.F.C.", "S.S. Lazio" and so on. So I do not understand why "CCCP Fedeli alla linea" should be preferred to "CCCP - Fedeli alla linea", this really puzzles me. I would like this band’s page to be spelled correctly also in en.wikipedia and that is why I am asking for the moving, but if this were not considered possible I would not try to ask for the moving again EISaxo (talk) 17:33, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- This should be discussed. "Technical" moves are only for cases that are clearly uncontroversial. The discussion here is not just about what we think the best name is, but also whether anyone else might have a different opinion. Also, the proposed name seems to use a hyphen-minus in a situation that calls for an en dash and also seems basically unusual. — BarrelProof (talk) 17:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- O.K. for me, let’s listen to the opinions of anyone interested. I have already argued mine a few lines higher and I think that was a good point, I find it hard to understand why the spelling without the hyphen should be chosen eventually. And it makes no difference to me whether it is used a hyphen or a dash, so if in this case the rules of en.wikipedia require an en dash I will agree on that sign instead of asking for the hyphen-minus EISaxo (talk) 06:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Football clubs are an exception to the rule for the simple reason that the football team often has the same common name as the city - eg "Barcelona" and "Liverpool". But that's a problem for Wikipedia as the city article is already at that name, so the football Wikipedians have a rule to always use the official name to avoid that problem whilst being consistent. Of course, if secondary sources *had* to use the "official" name all the time, it would be A.C. Milano, not Milan! And for the same reason that the main article on Italy's capital is at Rome and not Roma, even though Roma is the "official" name. Wikipedia doesn't always use the official name, for a variety of reasons. FlagSteward (talk) 22:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- I have read this part just now. For the record the Italian soccer team you mentioned is called “Milan” in Italian, not “Milano” which does not exist! On the contrary “Roma” is the name of both the team and the capital, both feminine names in Italian in this one case. EISaxo (talk) 14:48, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- This should be discussed. "Technical" moves are only for cases that are clearly uncontroversial. The discussion here is not just about what we think the best name is, but also whether anyone else might have a different opinion. Also, the proposed name seems to use a hyphen-minus in a situation that calls for an en dash and also seems basically unusual. — BarrelProof (talk) 17:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- hi, I am puzzled by your statement. This is just about a hyphen-minus, it is not a matter of, for example, scientific name vs. common name (Canis familiaris - dog) or given name vs. stage name (Reginald Kenneth Dwight - Elton John), right? In this case both spellings could be equally used, and if the difference between them is only a hyphen there is nothing strange if is chosen the most proper of the two names. I do not think, also, that there is a way to determine for certain if the most common spelling in English is with ot without it, I am quite sure too that there is not so much difference between their occurrences. However, the spelling with the hyphen is not used only in the official site but also on the main music websites: Spotify AllMusic Genius Discogs. But anyway the rule of the common name is not so absolute, for example it is not applied to any Italian soccer team because, to name a few, "Juventus F.C." is not more common than just "Juventus", the same goes for "A.C. Milan", "Genoa C.F.C.", "S.S. Lazio" and so on. So I do not understand why "CCCP Fedeli alla linea" should be preferred to "CCCP - Fedeli alla linea", this really puzzles me. I would like this band’s page to be spelled correctly also in en.wikipedia and that is why I am asking for the moving, but if this were not considered possible I would not try to ask for the moving again EISaxo (talk) 17:33, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- @ElSaxo: Wikipedia does not care what the official name is. We care about what the most often used name is, even if it is incorrect. UtherSRG (talk) 12:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- Is that a logo at the top of the infobox? It doesn't include a dash/hyphen, although it has some little dot (which I didn't even notice was there at first). The album covers shown at https://www.allmusic.com/artist/cccp-fedeli-alla-linea-mn0002171683 seem to show "CCCP" much more prominently than the other words (if they are present at all). Does the WP:COMMONNAME really include all of it? Should this just be "CCCP (Italian band)"? (The sourcing also seems very thin – does this topic pass WP:GNG with WP:IRS? Self-published sources and music selling services are not really independent.) We should look to what independent reliable sources do, but unfortunately we don't seem to be able to find a significant number of independent reliable sources. Commercial music playing websites and catalogues don't really seem like independent reliable sources to me. In any case, I at least oppose using a hyphen-minus in the title (versus e.g. an en dash). — BarrelProof (talk) 06:49, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- I think it is because “CCCP” and “Fedeli alla linea” are on different lines. The hyphen is visible when on the same line like here EISaxo (talk) 14:50, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- It seems like "Fedeli alla linea" (translation: "faithful to the line") is sort of like a subtitle, or maybe a slogan; is that correct? At this point, I weakly support CCCP – Fedeli alla linea (with an en dash), although some sources do omit the punctuation (e.g. here). — BarrelProof (talk) 21:40, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- Note that WP:RSDISCOGS and WP:GENIUS rank Discogs and Genius as low reliability, mostly user-generated sources. WP:ALLMUSIC is also not very encouraging about AllMusic. Spotify, as a music licensor/vendor, is also clearly not independent. — BarrelProof (talk) 03:48, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- It seems like "Fedeli alla linea" (translation: "faithful to the line") is sort of like a subtitle, or maybe a slogan; is that correct? At this point, I weakly support CCCP – Fedeli alla linea (with an en dash), although some sources do omit the punctuation (e.g. here). — BarrelProof (talk) 21:40, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- I think it is because “CCCP” and “Fedeli alla linea” are on different lines. The hyphen is visible when on the same line like here EISaxo (talk) 14:50, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose – A spaced hyphen has no known use in Wikipedia style. See MOS:HYPHEN and MOS:DASH. It appears to be a random separator they threw in at some point, but I don't see it on the album art etc. Dicklyon (talk) 03:42, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Neither the official name nor the name in Italian Wikipedia are particularly relevant. Andrewa (talk) 09:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly agree being I the proposer. The thing I can not get yet is why eliminating a mark, which is part of the name, as if it was of no importance at all. What if the band had initially had the hyphen-minus in the name and then, after some members had left and some others had joined, it had been refounded with the same name but without the hyphen, for example? How would the two bands have been called here? “CCCP (I)” and “CCCP (II)”? Using a hyphen or a dash is the same for me, the important is that one of these marks is included in the name. But if this page was not moved after the discussion, will it be possible at least to write in the intro that the official name is written with the hyphen or dash even if in all the page it is not used? EISaxo (talk) 15:19, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- File:Oh!_Battagliero_cover.jpegAt this stage it's hypothetical - but hyphens and en-dashes are easily confused and so in general Wikipedia either tries to avoid them or lays down strict rules for which one you might expect in particular circumstances. In this case the band themselves have done different things - mostly they seem to have used “Fedeli alla linea” as a subtitle in the logo, and have represented that in different ways - the cover of their 1987 single has nothing, whereas their 1992 compilation album represents it by what appears to be a short hyphen. If the band (or at least their cover artists) can't be consistent, and there's no strong third-party view from English sources, then I think it's reasonable to take the least-confusing-to-readers option by avoiding the whole en-dash/hyphen debate altogether so I oppose the move.FlagSteward (talk) 22:17, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- it is as you say, there are cases where the full name is found written on a single line without the hyphen and cases where it is found written with the hyphen, like in the case reported by me twice. In your opinion is it more likely that the true name has to be written without the hyphen but in some cases it was added by mistake or that the true name has to be written with the hyphen but in some cases it was omitted by mistake? English sources are not omogeneous but if they are based mainly on Italian sources then we should keep in mind that most Italian sources register the name with the hyphen. On the other hand, if en.wikipedia had specific rules that do not allow to use a hyphen-minus (or an en dash) in the titles of the pages, then this would be a good reason not to add it, the only good reason in my opinion. If this is the case, could we at least write in the intro that the official name is written with the hyphen or dash even if in all the page it is not used at all? This would just make the information about the band more precise. Another possibility, which would be better although less likely to be granted, would be changing the page name into “CCCP (Italian band)” (or “Fedeli alla linea (Italian band)”) instead, as proposed by another user. EISaxo (talk) 14:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with the proposal to change the name of the article in CCCP (Italian band), page about the Italian punk band. Would be necessary to create a disambiguation page, because the CCCP (German band) article could be written too, that about the German techno band. The Italian band is known with the name CCCP, I never heard someone pronouncing the second line of the title. Additionally, is the main result if you search on Google from here and the most reliable resources on this topic (Enciclopedia Treccani and the Rolling Stone magazine) are using the same title in their pages. Camelia (talk) 15:59, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- summing up: “CCCP Fedeli alla linea” is good for three persons; “CCCP - Fedeli alla linea” is good for two persons; “CCCP (Italian band)” is good for three persons. The last would be the the most appropriate for the page, being “Fedeli alla linea” a sort of “subtitle” and “CCCP” the “true” name. So, since not enough Italians have joined this talk (and this is quite disappointing to me) to explain why this Italian band should be indicated with the hyphen-minus in its name, will it be possible to move the page to “CCCP (Italian band)” at this point? EISaxo (talk) 17:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with the proposal to change the name of the article in CCCP (Italian band), page about the Italian punk band. Would be necessary to create a disambiguation page, because the CCCP (German band) article could be written too, that about the German techno band. The Italian band is known with the name CCCP, I never heard someone pronouncing the second line of the title. Additionally, is the main result if you search on Google from here and the most reliable resources on this topic (Enciclopedia Treccani and the Rolling Stone magazine) are using the same title in their pages. Camelia (talk) 15:59, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- it is as you say, there are cases where the full name is found written on a single line without the hyphen and cases where it is found written with the hyphen, like in the case reported by me twice. In your opinion is it more likely that the true name has to be written without the hyphen but in some cases it was added by mistake or that the true name has to be written with the hyphen but in some cases it was omitted by mistake? English sources are not omogeneous but if they are based mainly on Italian sources then we should keep in mind that most Italian sources register the name with the hyphen. On the other hand, if en.wikipedia had specific rules that do not allow to use a hyphen-minus (or an en dash) in the titles of the pages, then this would be a good reason not to add it, the only good reason in my opinion. If this is the case, could we at least write in the intro that the official name is written with the hyphen or dash even if in all the page it is not used at all? This would just make the information about the band more precise. Another possibility, which would be better although less likely to be granted, would be changing the page name into “CCCP (Italian band)” (or “Fedeli alla linea (Italian band)”) instead, as proposed by another user. EISaxo (talk) 14:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- File:Oh!_Battagliero_cover.jpegAt this stage it's hypothetical - but hyphens and en-dashes are easily confused and so in general Wikipedia either tries to avoid them or lays down strict rules for which one you might expect in particular circumstances. In this case the band themselves have done different things - mostly they seem to have used “Fedeli alla linea” as a subtitle in the logo, and have represented that in different ways - the cover of their 1987 single has nothing, whereas their 1992 compilation album represents it by what appears to be a short hyphen. If the band (or at least their cover artists) can't be consistent, and there's no strong third-party view from English sources, then I think it's reasonable to take the least-confusing-to-readers option by avoiding the whole en-dash/hyphen debate altogether so I oppose the move.FlagSteward (talk) 22:17, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly agree being I the proposer. The thing I can not get yet is why eliminating a mark, which is part of the name, as if it was of no importance at all. What if the band had initially had the hyphen-minus in the name and then, after some members had left and some others had joined, it had been refounded with the same name but without the hyphen, for example? How would the two bands have been called here? “CCCP (I)” and “CCCP (II)”? Using a hyphen or a dash is the same for me, the important is that one of these marks is included in the name. But if this page was not moved after the discussion, will it be possible at least to write in the intro that the official name is written with the hyphen or dash even if in all the page it is not used? EISaxo (talk) 15:19, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.