Talk:Cailleach

Should We connect this to German Perchta/ Frau Holle?

In much of Southern Germany & neighboring places, they preserved this weird, confusing tradition in their folklore about an old troll/ witch that seems to have an extreme similarity to Freya. What I've just noticed, however, is three extreme deviations from Freya folklore that I only just realized correspond to the Cailleach- the name Perchta, sometimes written Berchta, is similar to Beira, she is portrayed as an old woman instead of a young one & she can cause it to snow- specifically when she makes her bed in the spirit realm.

It occurs to me that they combined aspects of Beira into Freya & that is what accounts for several of the odd additions. My best guess is that, whatever religious practices Freya & Beira were attached to both came to he deemed heretical witchcraft & that is why the two became so strongly associated with one another. It's usually just one, odd thing that links two deities from two different cultures together, rather than them being a 1 for 1.

Also- I found out from a food history channel that pre-Industrial Revolution people would try to only eat the old chickens who had stopped producing eggs, which is probably why Cailleach is also the word for chicken. Lol

NeoPagan Bias

Once again the neo pagans subvert celtic mythology for their own purposes. This article reads just like the new agey, neo-pagan claptrap you can buy at your local wiccan bookstore. There is little reference to authoritative work to support any of what is written. The section about "the Cailleach" in folklore reads as if people in Ireland and Scotland still believe this. Please add a disclaimer that the "folklore" section is really just a neo-pagan revision of a very thinly attested aspect of celtic mythology. --12.181.190.99 (talk) 17:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to be bold and attempt to clean up the dodgier bits here. --Kathryn NicDhàna 20:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I did a fairly major rewrite. It could still use some work. Still need to thoroughly vet the links posted by previous editors, and possibly footnote the folkloric bits, though I did include sources in the bibliography. I think there's more Wikifying to do, such as linkage on the festivals. --Kathryn NicDhàna 21:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I've done a major overhaul. Deleted the dodgy bits no one else was able to source, and fleshed out the stuff I have good sources for. I might expand this more later, but I figure this was enough of a change to remove the flags. And hey, look at that date above. Perhaps I was unable to resume work on this till the shift to Samhuinntide ;-) --Kathryn NicDhàna 04:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I was looking at my family tree and there was a guy called Cailleach Bheur who was a king of Ireland from 642 to 654. I've been trying to find some sources but i've not had much luck yet. - 80.47.123.193 20:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

No one mentioned yet that the name Galicia derives from Cailleach. In more detail, the Roman name for this land was originally Callaecia, meaning 'Land of Cailleach'. This is due to the fact that one of the biggest Celtic tribes Romans fought when first entered the country called themselves 'worshippers of Cailleach' (according to Roman chronicles). Callaecia was eventually transformed (by local phonetics) into Gallaecia > Galecia > Galicia / Galiza. There is an internet reference on this (in Portuguese) at http://agal-gz.org/portugaliza/numero0/boletim00nova05.htm There are plenty of references in books and articles, i.e. it's pretty well documented. I'll try to compile the most relevant info on the issue and document it properly, before adding anything to the main article. Still, I think it's important to mention that, in a strange way, there's a People out there whose homeland's name could be roughly translated as 'the land of the worshippers of Cailleach'. --Milesio, 21:36, 2 September 2007 (GMT)

Good Article nomination

After boldly rewriting, sourcing, and adding pictures to this, I decided to be bold and nominate it for Good Article status in the category of Mythology. If anyone who hasn't contributed substantially to the article would like to participate in the review process, that would be helpful. Or if you think you can further improve the article, that would be great, too.

I vacillate on whether this should be longer. It could conceivably be expanded, and the legends split into Irish and Scottish sections, but I actually like it the way it is now. I think it's a nice little article. If we were to go for Feature status, we'd want to expand it, imho, but for now, I'm interested to see if people think it at least merits a GA. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Review

Hello! I am Rudget, and will be carrying out this GA review. I lived in Ireland until I was 9, and I'd heard about the Cailleach, but this has enlightened me more. But getting back to the review (!), it looks great on first appearances. Regards, Rudget.talk 16:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Assessment

This is my assessment of the (current revision) article. Below the assessment are some tips that will help the page even further.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): [reasonably well written, just needs another look over by the nominator] b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

5. It is stable.

   (It is stable, and as it's been solely edited by Kathryn (who has extended quite a bit) I doubt any harm will come to it)

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

   a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

7. Overall:

   a Pass/Fail:

Here is a greater analysis of my review:

• I can find no original research, but some claims like, and I quote "..Legend has it that if she intends to make the winter last a good while longer, she will make sure the weather on February 1 is bright and sunny, so she can gather plenty of firewood to keep herself warm in the coming months", has no reference provided and was changed by me where Feb 1. was changed to February 1st.
• All images were appropriately tagged, and (if any?) fair use images were rationalised.
• Only a few grammar mistakes, most corrected by me.
• More references are needed, for example in the lead - last sentence (The word simply means 'old woman' in modern Scottish Gaelic, and has been applied to numerous mythological figures in both Scotland and Ireland)
• If possible use inline citations.
• All current references provided are reliable and verifiable.
• Most prose is excellent, some patches though.

General Comments

There's a few problems that have been described above, like the lack of more sources and some patchy prose, but everything else is good and I am willing to pass this article on the assumption that as Kathryn is the sole editor, these problems will be easily and swiftly recognised and corrected. Congratulations to the Kathryn and all the other editors invovled with the article. Rudget.talk 13:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your thorough and helpful review! I think all the places needing sourcing are covered in footnotes already in the article (usually a sentence or two later), but I will add additional footnotes to make it clearer. If I can't find an exact quote in an existing source, the dicdef of "cailleach" I can pull from a Gaelic dictionary. I wrote this in a less dry style than many other articles I work on, but decided to go for it and see what people thought. Others have worked on the article, though not recently. Here and there are sentences that are pretty much the way I found them but, in general, since I started working on it any other edits to the article have been fairly small. This is what it looked like when I first found it: [1]. Thanks again for your work on this. I'll see if I can pull the books out and deal with the additional sourcing some time today or tomorrow. Slán, - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for replying to the comments left by me during the assessment. I see you've carried out all the correction notes I set out. It's nice to see a reviewed article go that extra bit further, thanks. Le gach dea-mhéin, Rudget.talk 12:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Galicia section

While I'm glad to finally see sourcing for these claims, I wish more were in English. Also, compared to the rest of the section(s), the Galicia section is too long and detailed. Detailed about Galicia, that is, not about A Chailleach. I think some of the section should be compressed. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 17:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, not everything is this world comes in English ;) As many of us had to learn English in order to have direct access to some sources, English-speakers should get used to the fact that there's much research out there which is not, and will never be, translated. If one wants to get the "full picture" or something one will inevitably have to learn some languages ;)

Sources for this sub-section are produced in English, French, Portuguese and Galician though. I did a summary of all that and tried to put it in my best English for the article. If anyone wants to summarise it even further please be my guest. Swamp Greetings (talk) 14:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I am all in favour of a multi-lingual society. However, this is English-language Wikipedia. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:13, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

A section that big, including things on migration patterns in Spain, is undue weight. Also, some of the sources are not WP:V for en-wiki, whether or not they are WP:RS. Please see the comments on the talk page here: Talk:Galicia_(Spain)#Need_more_eyes_on_this - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

The (tiny) Galician section has been deleted, disregarding all the sources and evidence linking Galicia to the Cailleach. Thus, putting into context the so-called Latin etymology - maybe that's why Roman chronicles, and Greeks before them! - unequivocally mention that the Callaeci were "Worshipers of the Cailleach" (and one wonders why Galicia and Ireland share so many place-names, in sequential chronology). I actually had logged in to add some more sources :P Also, the Sheela na gig info is fun to follow on too, since the oldest Sheela na gig representation in Europe has been discovered in Galicia (google translate can help)... Oh well. Up to ye all. I won't "undo" because it'd be deleted again; what's the point of sources and research anyway. Swamp Greetings (talk) 15:55, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but there are no such Roman and Greek sources on the Galicians worshiping a "Cailleach" (where do you people get this stuff?? Don't tell me you just found it on the web!). It is widely agreed (pace the ill-informed Spanish scholars that were referenced in the deleted section) that the Old Irish word caillech (originally "veiled one", i.e. nun/religious woman; later simply "old woman, housekeeper" and finally developing into "hag, witch") is derived from Latin pallium "veil", and likely borrowed during the early Christianization of Ireland; thus, it is impossible for this word to have been the name of an ancient, pre-Christian Celtic goddess, no less for it to have any etymological connection with the ethnic name Callaeci (note that I am strictly talking about the name here - I am not denying that a hag/crone figure was a character in pre-Christian, Celtic folklore). Cagwinn (talk) 17:17, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree that the section stays deleted, I'm afraid. Of the references I'm able to look at online, they don't seem to be up to the standards for use as citations on Wikipedia. The Amergin University link didn't have any citations at all, while another one made sweeping statements about the Cailleach being a Celtic Mother Goddess...aiiee), and doesn't even give an actual reference for that specific claim, as far as I can tell. It all seems more than a little spurious.

Furthermore, I can't find any reliable sources that seriously entertain the idea (no mention in Koch's Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia for one...), and I note that the article for Gallaecia doesn't make any mention of this etymology at all. An article I've found that has good references: The Language(s) of the Callaeci makes no reference to the Cailleach at all, though it does examine attested deity names from inscriptions in the area (so apparently the Cailleach isn't one). Without anything conclusive I would wonder that it's equally possible that - perhaps - the name of the Galician tribe in question may have instead derived from the same root word as the Cailleach's name, or indeed a similar one. Or, that like the Gauls etc, their name has a similar meaning as other Names of the Celts that contain a similar element. The etymology for the Cailleach, however, is accepted as deriving from the Latin, and is likely to have come to Ireland after Christianity, not contemporary to the first references to the Gallaeci/Callaeci. Beurlach (talk) 18:44, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Cailleach become Bride the Maiden?

In regard to Marian McNeill's reference in her work "The Silver Bough" that Cailleach becomes Bride. I also noticed similar tradition with corn dollies.

From “The Red-Haired Girl from the Bog: The Landscape of Celtic Myth and Spirit” by Patricia Monaghan (writing about Ireland): “Once cut, the Cailleach sheaf was treated reverently. Dressed as an old woman or plaited into a cross, it hung in house or barn until replaced by the next year’s sheaf. In many areas, the Cailleach sheaf provided material for spring’s Brigit crosses – the same hag-into-virgin motif we encounter in our tales of Niall visiting the well.”

An analogy can be found in “Celtic Christianity and nature: early Irish and Hebridean traditions‎" by Mary Low; for the Caillach was typical made from the last sheaf. “Then at the beginning of February, at the festival of Bride or Brigit, it was the custom in the Hebrides to take a sheaf from the previous year's harvest, form it into a female figure, and carry it from house to house. This effigy was known as the Bride or little Bride. Insome places, the older women of the townland would make her a cradle. These were similar in Ireland.” However I find that in some districts in Scotland the dolly was not called the Cailleach, but instead calling it the Maiden. Muireagain (talk) 19:28, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Does the Cailleach become a Maiden?

Here is another story (as opposed to the tales of Loch Ba, Isle of Mull) from Scotland that has the Cailleach visiting a well to renew here youth:

From "The white wife; with other stories, collected by Cuthbert Bede" (1865) "THE PRATTLING OLD WIFE. MANY years ago, there lived in Kildavee, Cantire, a Chailleach bhearo, or prattling old wife, who possessed wonderful gifts. She had discovered a medicinal well, to which she repaired every seventh year, in order that she might get her youth renewed; and many a time search has been made for this well, but it has not yet been discovered. But this might arise from the circumstance, that, whenever the old Wife paid her visit to the well for the purpose of renewing her youth, she was very careful not to meet with any person on the road: for, if she did, it would deprive the waters of the well of their medicinal charm. ..." http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA124&dq=Cantire%20%22seventh%20year%22%20renew&ei=b9Z3Te7iGoqcgQftqO3TBQ&ct=result&id=ZtoBAAAAQAAJ&output=text

The seven year cycle reminds me of seven periods of youth in 'The Lament of the Old Woman of Beare'.

Revue celtique for 1879-1880 in regard to the tale of 'The Prattling Old Wife' tells of a "fine well at Oranmore [Co. Galway], which runs wine every seventh year, is called from her, Tobar-na-Caillíghe Béaraighe." http://www.archive.org/stream/revueceltique04gaid/revueceltique04gaid_djvu.txt Muireagain (talk) 19:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Older Historical References to the Cailleach

1792 "Curious Stones, l£c.—On a high part of that ridge of hills which separates Stralachlan from Glendaruel, there is a very large stone, remarkable for its situation. There is a descent from it on every side. The prospect from it is very extensive. It is called Cailieach-vear or vera. In the dark ages of superstition, it was personisied, and said to have a considerable property in cattle. Cailieach-vear makes a conspicuous figure in the marvellous tales of the country people, over a great great part of the West Highlands. Her residence was said to be on the highest mountains ; that she could step with ease, and in a moment, from one district to another; when offended, that she caused a flood to come from the mountains, which destroyed the corns, and laid the low grounds under water; that one of these floods was the origin of Lochow, in Lom, of Locheck, in this parish, and of manyother lakes; that the people paid her a superstitious veneration, and were under dreadful apprehensions of her anger." From "The statistical account of Scotland: Volume 4" edited by Sir John Sinclair

1793 "Bera the aged dwelt in the cave of the rock. She was the daughter of Griannan the sage: long was the line of her father, and she was the last of her race. Large and fertile were her possessions; hers the beautiful vale below, and hers the cattle which roamed on the hills around. To Bera was committed the charge of that awful spring, which, by the appointment of fate, was to prove so fatal to the inheritance of her fathers, and to her father's race. Before the sun should withdraw his beams, she was to cover the spring with a stone, on which sacred and mysterious characters were impressed. One night this was forgotten by the unhappy Bera. Overcome with the heat and chase of the day, she was seized with sleep before the usual time of rest. The confined waters of the mountain burst forth into the plain below, and covered that large expanse, now known by the name of the Lake of Aw. The third morning, Bera awaked from her sleep; she went to remove the stone from the spring; but behold no stone was there! She looked to the inheritance of her tribe: she shrieked! The mountain shook from its base! Her spirit retired to the ghosts of her fathers, in their light and airy halls." Ossian. From "The statistical account of Scotland: Volume 8" edited by Sir John Sinclair

1862 "according to Mr Macgregor, and the cailleach, (kayll-ech) carlin, is represented as sitting on the ground, beating it with a mell, to keep down the grass; and when, in defiance of her grim and vigorous exertions, the grass sprung up all around her, she threw away the mell in despair, and vanished into air." From "A treatise on the language, poetry and music of the Highland clans" by Donald Campbell (lieut.), Page 51. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.44.146 (talk) 02:17, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Apront Vs Creel

The sacred Text referenced says, "In the days when rivers broke loose and lochs were made, Beira set herself to build the mountains of Scotland. When at work she carried on her back a great creel filled with rocks and earth. Sometimes as she leapt from hill to hill her creel tilted sideways, and rocks and earth fell from it into lochs and formed islands. Many islands are spoken of as "spillings from the creel of the big old woman"" and therefore I changed apron to basket. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.92.32.180 (talk) 05:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Spoken Wikipedia Version by Irish or Scottish accent Wikipedian

Requesting a spoken version of this article to help with pronunciation. --MarsInSVG (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

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Old Man or Men and Old Woman or Women

Hello @Akerbeltz:. You corrected the translation of the Gaelic to plural instead of singular. I am no Gaelic scholar, but felt that the word "bodach" suddenly appeared in the article with no explanation for those without even a smattering of Gaelic. I therefore tried to give an explanation. Given that words are plural there is a problem here in that in the context they ought to be singular: there is only one old woman in the shrine. The OS map gives "Tigh nam Bodach" (despite his wife being the main character!), as do most references, although some also give Tigh nan Cailleach. How do we square this singular/plural issue? Exbrum (talk) 22:57, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi Exbrum. Grammatically, there's no way either Tigh na Cailleach or Tigh nan Cailleach (same for Taigh nam Bodach) can be construed as a singular. Of course I can't prove it but my suspicion would be that a) either there's no connection to The Cailleach per se and it was simply a place somehow associated with old women or nuns or b) even if there's only one old woman in the shrine now, there might have been more at some point.

Setting that aside for a second, starting at the top, the OS map has Gleann Cailliche 'Old Woman's Glen', then Lòn na Cailliche 'Marshy Meadow of the Old Woman', Allt Cailliche 'Old Woman's Burn', Bealach an Aoghlain 'Pass of the Unclean' and on the other side there is Beinn Mhanach, 'Monks Mountain'. Two things jump out - singular and plural is all over the place BUT at least it's evidence that grammatical inflection in the are was in line with expectations i.e. we're not dealing with an are which had made cailleach inflect differently. The other is the reference to monks and the unclean. It just makes me wonder if this was a place in the past where people put lepers - separating the men from the women? It's of course possible that there are two different things going on here, both something relating to the Cailleach and something else, perhaps a leper colony or something with monks and nuns (though I can't see anything on the old OS maps).

Either way, as far as the two tighs go, the grammar just doesn't support a single old woman/man. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:02, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

PS it is, of course possible, that it's our old foe, cartographer-with-no-Gaelic. I note that Canmore names the site Tigh na Cailliche which would bring it in line with a single old woman. Perhaps we should point out there's confusion over the naming but that Canmore's sources point to a singular? Akerbeltz (talk) 12:15, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

I think your PS is the most likely explanation. Re Canmore, I note that it also gives the "masculine" version as Taigh-nam-Bodach so retaining the plural. Your suggestion of pointing out the confusion is a good one. Both names ought to be in the singular. Could I suggest you make the change. Thanks. Exbrum (talk) 15:29, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

If the bodaich are those stone thingies, then the plural makes sense for tigh nam bodach as there are several of those. I'll give it a tweak over the weekend if I can make time. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:40, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Not quite. My understanding is that the largest stones are the old man (singular) and the old woman (singular), and the smaller ones are their children, the smallest one being her baby. In fact McKerracher, perhaps the best source, does not mention the old man at all, just the old woman and her family. He says that the old woman's house is "Tigh nam Bodach". Exbrum (talk) 17:53, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Merge from Beira (mythology)

We might want to merge the Beira article into this one. I'm not a folklore expert, but as far as I can tell Beira and Cailleach are just two names for the same figure. The Beira page is a stub anyways, and this article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Beira will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. I think this makes sense, but I'd like to hear the opinion of someone more knowledgeable on the topic than myself before anything gets changed. Aquaticonions (talk) 19:00, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't see what makes the name variant Beira notable on its own. Merging it here might be best. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:13, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ~Asarlaí 20:32, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Beira's Place, Edinburgh

JK Rowling has opened a sexual-violence support center in Edinburgh, as announced 12 December 2022, as per Julie Bindel, JK Rowling works her magic again, https://unherd.com/2022/12/jk-rowling-works-her-magic-again/:

"Situated in the heart of Edinburgh, it is a service for women who have been subjected to men’s violence. It is named after the Scottish goddess of Winter, as Rowling explained: 'Beira rules over the dark part of the year, handing over to her sister, Bride, when summer comes again. Beira represents female wisdom, power, and regeneration. Hers is a strength that endures during the difficult times, but her myth contains the promise that they will not last for ever.'

I'll expect some more attention to this article shortly. Rorybowman (talk) 04:25, 13 December 2022 (UTC)