Talk:Camillo Rondani

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Requested move 5 July 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:43, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Camillo Róndani → Camillo Rondani – Surname is spelled without accents, but is pronounced as if spelled "Róndani", according to page 8 of [1] and Italian Wikipedia's Rondani page.

References

  1. ^ O'Hara, James E.; Cerretti, Pierfilippo; Pape, Thomas; Evenhuis, Neal L. (2011). "Nomenclatural Studies Toward a World List of Diptera Genus-Group Names. Part II: Camillo Rondani" (PDF). Zootaxa. 3141: 1–268.
Monster Iestyn (talk) 15:57, 5 July 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 08:40, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination. Italian sources, including the corresponding entry in Italian Wikipedia do not use an accent. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:47, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose per Memorie della Società entomologica italiana Società entomologica italiana · 1969 Vol.48 p1003 - Italian Wikipedia is not a WP:RS print source. The unusual accent on the first syllable is there in WP:RS and required to enable correct pronunciation by Italians, much more so by foreigners. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:02, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Roman Spinner: afraid not, I've just taken a look at the history of the wp.it article and how it started as a probable copyvio in 2009 from a low-MOS web source. Wp.It has a lot of these issues. And there is no evidence that this entomologist played tennis so SERBIANWOMANTENNISNAMES does not apply. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:05, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Monster Iestyn: assume goodwill of course but why would a 2011 pdf by Magnolia Press P.O. Box 41-383 Auckland 1346 be more reliable WP:RS on Italian orthography than scientific Italian reference works? I suggest you withdrawn this nom as based on unreliable for purpose source. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:09, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@In ictu oculi: You've raised valid concerns about the Italian Wikipedia entry, but a simple English-language google search still confirms the widespread absence of the accent mark, particularly on the covers of subject's own works. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:11, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Roman Spinner To be fair, in the case of the subject's own works, his name is always written in all-uppercase on said covers. This may not help us solve whether the accent in his name should be there or not, depending on whether diacritics were available for uppercase letters on typewriters in Italy during his lifetime or not (I honestly have no idea). Monster Iestyn (talk) 16:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Monster Iestyn A point well taken. Nevertheless, googling "writings by Camillo Rondani" at least confirms that booksellers and other book-based resources seem to accept and depict the name in its unaccented form. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:14, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Roman how can you be this long on en.wp and not know how to do an Italian Google Book search? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:47, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@In ictu oculi I use the 2011 article more as evidence that is how his name is most commonly spelled at least in English-language works, rather than an authorative source for Italian orthography (which I don't know anything about admittedly). It is worth noting that the second author appears to be Italian though. Meanwhile unfortunately I was not aware of Memorie della Società entomologica italiana Società entomologica italiana · 1969 Vol.48 p1003, since old volumes of that particular journal are not freely accessible online (though I was able to search Google Books for that page in particular to confirm that his name is spelled like that there as you say). The trouble is also that there are currently no sources in this Wikipedia article to confirm the spelling either way, with or without the accent, and the user who renamed the article from "Rondani" to Róndani" back in 2006 failed to provide any sources or references for this move. On another note, it is a little strange to me that this Rondani/Róndani is the only one on Wikipedia with the accent and not the other two linked at Rondani: are we to take it Camillo Rondani/Róndani is a special case, that all of them should have the accent, or none of them actually need the accent? (Maybe this is a poor defence, though apparently the Italian painter is from the same noble family as the entomologist?) Monster Iestyn (talk) 16:27, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Monster Iestyn: have you looked at how en.Wikipedia works? If the evidence exists in original Italian/Polish/etc sources we don't follow English sources. Why would we? Take a random scroll through the entire en.wp article corpus and you will not find any modern European bios which do not follow the original spelling irrespective of all the unreliable English sources. There is only one BLP on en.wp which has been singled out for Anglicization and she's not an Italian scientist. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:38, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Btw the painter is Rond'ani, not R'ondani. Stress on the penult is not marked in Italian. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:42, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regards the painter, I have actually found Italian-language sources on Google Books that give his name as "Róndani"; most of them are Snippet View only, but this one isn't: [1]. Monster Iestyn (talk) 12:36, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay so that's wrong too. Let's correct it. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:42, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@In ictu oculi: According to Italian orthography#Diacritics (and other English-language online sources on usage of accents in Italian, e.g. [2]), in Italian ó is mandatory only on the last vowel in the word, which it is not in the case of "Róndani" (where it is on the first syllable out of three). Otherwise, it is "generally found only in dictionaries", supposedly. Should this be taken into account at all? Monster Iestyn (talk) 15:02, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Apart from the family (IT:Rondani) there is also the village of IT:Mezzano Rondani named after the family. I could only find references to either with no accent. It seems "Rondani" is a word that is just not written with an accent. As Monster Iestyn says "ó" is very rarely used in Italian. I blame hypercorrection for the cases where it appears, which are a small minority. Vpab15 (talk) 20:41, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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