Talk:Carnosine

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Moved further reading section[edit]

I have no idea how to edit the main section of carnosine, but here is a citation to support the notion that vegetarian diets do in fact lack it. http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/jan2006_awsi_01.htm email me if you want to explain how to edit it. Hilsee@gmail.com delete this when it is added as a citation. thanks to whomever does such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.31.82.146 (talk) 20:15, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The lef.org article may not be a valid citation as I read elsewhere (http://www.therawdiet.com/supplements.html) the lef.org site sells a vegan carnosine supplement. There is an inherent conflict of interest here, I think. Davidresseguie (talk) 15:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I move this here, I doubt if this has been used to write the article, though they may be useful to expand the article:

  • Boldyrev AA, Koldobski A, Kurella E, Maltseva V, and, Stvolinski S (1993) Natural histidine-containing dipeptide carnosine as a potent hydrophilic antioxidant with membrane stabilizing function. A biochemical aspect. Molecular and Chemical Neuropathology. 19:185-192.
  • Batrukova MA, and Rubstov AM (1997) Histidine-containing dipeptides as endogenous regulators of the activity of sarcoplasmic reticulum Ca-release channels. Biochimica et Biophysica Acta. 1324:142-150.
  • Derave W, Özdemir MS, Harris RC, Pottier A, Reyngoudt H, Koppo K, Wise JA, and Achten E (2007) Beta-alanine supplementation augments muscle carnosine content and attenuates fatigue during repeated isokinetic contraction bouts in trained sprinters. Journal of Applied Physiology (Aug 9, 2007) doi10.1152/japlphysiol00397-2007.
  • Dunnet M, and Harris RC (1995) Carnosine and taurine contents of different fibre types in the middle gluteal muscle of the Thoroughbred horse. Equine Veterinary Journal [Suppl] 18:214-217.
  • Dunnet M, Harris RC, Soliman MZ, and Suwar AAS (1997) Carnosine, anserine and taurine contents in individual fibres from the middle gluteal muscle of the camel. Research in Veterinary Science. 62:213-216.
  • Harris RC, Marlin DJ, Dunnett M, Snow DH, Hultman E (1990) Muscle buffering capacity and dipeptide content in the Thoroughbred horse, greyhound dog and man. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology. 97(2):249-251.
  • Harris RC, Dunnett M, Greenhaff PL (1998) Carnosine and taurine contents in individual fibres in human vastus lateralis muscle. Journal of Sports Science. 16:639-643.
  • Harris RC, Kim HJ, Harris DB, Hill CA, Kim CK, Boobis L, Sale C, and Wise JA (2005) The distribution of carnosine and taurine in different muscle fibre types from human v lateralis and the effects of beta-alanine supplementation. Amino Acids. 29:13
  • Harris RC, Tallon MJ, Dunnett M, Boobis L, Coakley J, Kim HJ, Fallowfield JL, Hill CA, Sale C, and Wise JA (2006) The absorption of orally supplied β-alanine and its effect on muscle carnosine synthesis in human vastus lateralis. Amino Acids. 30:279-289.
  • Hill CA, Harris RC, Kim HJ, Harris DB, Sale C, Boobis LH, Kim CK, and Wise JA (2007) Influence of β-alanine supplementation on skeletal muscle carnosine concentrations and high intensity cycling capacity. Amino Acids. 32:225-233.
  • Hipkiss AR, Michaelis J, and Syrris P (1995) Non-enzymatic glycosylation of the dipeptide L-carnosine, a potential anti-protein-cross-linking agent. FEBS Lett. 371:81-85.
  • Hipkiss AR (2000) Carnosine and protein carbonyl groups: a possible relationship. Biochemistry (Mosc.) 65:771-778.
  • Kim HJ, Kim CK, Lee YW, Harris RC, Sale C, Harris DB, and Wise JA (2006) The effect of a supplement containing β-alanine on muscle carnosine synthesis and exercise capacity, during 12 wk combined endurance and weight training. Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition. 3(1): S9.
  • Suzuki Y, Ito O, Mukai N, Takahashi H, Takamatsu K (2002) High level of skeletal muscle carnosine contributes to the latter half of exercise performance during 30-s maximal cycle ergometer sprinting. The Japanese Journal of Physiology. Apr;52(2):199-205.
  • Suzuki Y, Ito O, Takamatsu K (2004) The effect of sprint training on skeletal muscle carnosine in humans. International Journal of Sport Health Science. 2:105-110.
  • Suzuki Y, Nakao T, Maemura H, sato M, Kamahara K, Morimatsu F, and Takamatsu K (2006) Carnosine and Anserine Ingestion Enhances Contribution of Nonbicarbonate Buffering. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 38(2):334-338
  • Tallon MJ, Harris RC, Maffulli N, and Tarnopolsky M (2007) Carnosine, taurine and enzyme activities of human skeletal muscle fibres from elderly subjects with osteoarthritis and young moderately active subjects. Biogerontology. 8:129-137.

--Dirk Beetstra T C 12:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Carnosine for Muscle Growth[edit]

What's up with the hype about Carnosine for weightlifting as in H-Blocker ? Maybe, it is just a marketing fraud. I found the following reference, which some of the Carnosine selling companies build on:

  • Hoffman, J., et al. (2006). Effect of creatine and B-alanine supplementation on performance and endocrine responses in strength/power athletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 38:S126. IM

I did not bother to read it, though, as I'm not an expert and could not judge anyhow, whether the journal was professional. SebastianHellmann (talk) 08:02, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reference Needed[edit]

It ocurred to me, as to the quest for a reference towards the end of the article, http://www.tritolonen.fi/files/pdf/hipkiss_nyas.pdf, p. 371 might help, but not sure. 219.110.234.167 (talk) 03:39, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do humans make their own carnosine[edit]

How much carnosine per day does a human need, and how much can be synthesised from the constituent amino acids ? β-Alanine supplementation augments muscle carnosine content and attenuates fatigue during repeated isokinetic contraction bouts in trained sprinters suggests we can make it given enough β-Alanine in the diet. - Rod57 (talk) 13:05, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What proportion of dietary carnosine is broken up before absorbtion ? - Rod57 (talk) 12:58, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What relative masses of L-hystidine and B-Alanine to make Carnosine in the body?[edit]

What relative masses of L-hystidine and B-Alanine are needed to make Carnosine in the body? I read that carnosine would be destroyed in the digestive tract, so the body needs the two precursors. Some suppliments have both. How much relative quantities of each are needed stoichiometrically? 71.139.160.208 (talk) 19:39, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Question about the use of the word "glycolysis"[edit]

Under the section "Athersclerosis and Aging," the word "glycolysis" may be used incorrectly. The word means to break down glucose. I believe the contributor of that word may have intended to use the actual word used in many of the cited studies, which is "glycation" or its synonym "glycosylation." The latter two words refer to the attachment of a sugar molecule to a protein structure, the prevention and correction of which has been a key topic of research for Carnosine.

I have skimmed most of the studies cited and cannot find the word "glycolysis" used anywhere, but maybe I am missing something? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thank you very kindly for your help!

71.185.215.82 (talk) 00:18, 3 November 2017 (UTC)71.185.215.82[reply]

revision to carnosine page[edit]

Alexbrn,

My citations only added relevant support from peer-reviewed studies archived by the National Institutes of Health website, and some of my citations were of articles by researchers who were already recognized as being lead researchers on the subject in the references on the Carnosine Wiki page - my additions merely filled in omissions.

Summary of my concerns about your revert:

1. My edits didn't vandalize what was already printed on the page, they merely augmented and supported it.

2. The citations filled in missing relevant peer-reviewed studies on the topic, including some by researchers already recognized in previous citations as having expertise in the topic.

3. My edits followed WP:MEDRS guidelines.

4. Your revert was a wholesale action that did not examine my contributions on a per-case basis.


Thank you very kindly, 71.185.215.82 (talk) 15:57, 3 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.215.82 (talk)

Sources for health content should be WP:MEDRS and we must avoid dubious journals like those published by Frontiers. With this is mind, is there anything you think is worth adding? Alexbrn (talk) 16:57, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Alexbrn, Many of my edits did not include citations from "Frontiers." I had proposed that we cite additional supporting documentation for the assertion that a carnivorous diet is richer in carnosine, and had listed another Hipkiss article from the respected journal "Mechanisms of Ageing and Development." This edit would have supported the previously accepted Hipkiss article already posted.

So Wiki would accept Hipkiss studies posted in some journals, but reject Hipkiss' work posted in "Frontiers?" I had used that study to add extra support to the list of researchers from Britain, but it would be a simple matter to swap out that citation for another Hipkiss study already posted elsewhere in the article. You are permitting a citation after "Britain" including only researchers from 1989, while Hipkiss is a more contemporary researcher from that country. If one of the following three journals is not blacklisted, we could cite it instead:

Hipkiss, A. R. (2006). "Does chronic glycolysis accelerate aging? Could this explain how dietary restriction works?". Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. 1067: 361–8. PMID 16804012. doi:10.1196/annals.1354.051.

or

Hipkiss, A. R. (2005). "Glycation, ageing and carnosine: Are carnivorous diets beneficial?". Mechanisms of Ageing and Development. 126 (10): 1034–9. PMID 15955546. doi:10.1016/j.mad.2005.05.002

or

Hipkiss, A. R. (2009). "Carnosine, diabetes and Alzheimer's Disease". Expert Review of Neurotherapeutics. 10.1586/ern.09.32

or all of them, in order to provide a fuller understanding of Britain's most current participation in the topic, as Britain has done much relevant work since the single older study that Wiki is permitting as the lone citation there.

This 2000 Horning study could be included as being from the U.S., perhaps as a citation following "and other countries": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10661495

This 2000 Wang et al study from China could be included as being from China, as a citation following "and other countries": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10951108

You had deleted my citation of an Italian study from "and other countries." Does this mean that the journal "Molecular Aspects of Medicine" is on the blacklist?

The 2010 Baldyrev et al study from Russia could be added as a supporting citation after "Russia" if the journal "Rejuvenation Research" is not blacklisted.

Following "therapeutic potential" under the section Athersclerosis and Aging, I had cited the 2001 Hipkiss study from the journal "Mechanisms of Ageing and Development," the 2005 Hipkiss study from the journal "Mechanisms of Ageing and Development," and the 2013 Hipkiss study from "Chemistry Central Journal." At least the latter study is more recent by seven years than the study currently cited as being the lone study permitted so far.

So as far as I can see, the blacklisted "Frontiers" journal only accounts for one of my citations. Are there others that are blacklisted? 71.185.215.82 (talk) 13:25, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As I said sources also need to be WP:MEDRS, which also means we do not use primary sources for this sort of health info. In general we present knowledge from secondary sources. Including papers from other countries as evidence of research in other countries is a species of WP:OR. Alexbrn (talk) 15:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Alexbrn for the explanation. I have carefully read WP:MEDRS and WP:OR. May the lee-way of this clause of WP:MEDRS be used under "Physiological Effects" due to lack of sufficient studies on Carnosine? 

    ("Keeping an article up-to-date while maintaining the more-important goal of reliability is important. These instructions are appropriate for actively researched areas with many primary sources and several reviews and may need to be relaxed in areas where little progress is being made or where few reviews are published.")

71.185.215.82 (talk) 22:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think not as we lack reliable sources and this is a research backwater. You could ask at WT:MED if you disagree. Alexbrn (talk) 07:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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