Talk:Carnyx

Assessment, stub class for now

I assessed this as a mid-importance article for the Wikiproject Musical Instruments, an instrument known mainly from artwork discovered in archaelogy, forerunner of trumpets. I rated it a start because it is provides the bare bones of a story, but has sufficient photos to tell the story. If you improve it and want reassessment or need help or have questions, please drop me a line. Needs to bring in quotes from literature and refs. Jacqke (talk) 01:56, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Recent Carnyx find

There was a find of four really well preserved carnyxes from gaul in the last couple of years, sothe article needs to be updated. I will try and dig out that material over this weekend, but if anyone else has it to hand, please update the article. --Nantonos 12:14, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

It is perhaps worth mentioning that there are two distinct interpretations of how a carnyx was played. John Kenny has built a replica, which he plays on several albums, and plays it like a Swiss Alpenhorn i.e. using his mouth. However a recent documentary on the Romans reconstructed one as a kind of wind-harp. There were whistles or jangles placed inside the opening. The player would either hold it into the wind, causing a whistling or humming sound (rather unlikely, given that the sound would be blown AWAY from the enemy) - or else he would run towards the enemy, and the breeze that resulted caused the wailing sound. It look many attemps to produce anything loud enough of wierd enough to frighten an enemy. Ogg 10:17, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I can't remember when the documentary was broadcast, or who the scholars were. It must have been on UK television between 2004 and 2005. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Ogg 19:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

A photo of a reconstructed carnyx would be useful. Deipnosophista (talk) 13:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I haven't been able to find a photo in the public domain. --Deskford (talk) 13:41, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

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Deskford Carnyx

What's up with the Roman comments on the Deskford Carnyx?

"The location and age of the Deskford Carnyx suggests the instrument had a peaceful, ceremonial use and was not only used in warfare."

Based on what?

"The Deskford find was made almost entirely of brass, a metal used almost exclusively by the Romans, and strictly controlled by them."

This may be true. But please verify.

Given that Deskford is outside the Roman zone of occupation, is it possible it was created from Roman brass which had been melted down.

"Further, the basic size and shape of the Deskford find suggests it may in fact have been a Roman military draco standard."

Evidence? Deskford is not in an area occupied by the Romans, although they did send expeditions there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:1409:A827:1:1:F843:C375 (talk) 10:14, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I am disheartened to see that this was noticed several years ago at this point, but I have made a brief and hopefully useful effort to correct this rather out-of-place remark in the article. I have not gone back through the edit history to identify who added that, but it jumped out at me, too. I kept the part about the Deskford carnyx being brass, and the accompanying citation,[1] since I think it is of note that the material used to make it was repurposed Roman metal. If I recall correctly a similar phenomenon exists relating to Pictish silverwork, in that there were no silver mines in Scotland at the time, and it is all just melted down Roman coins. The cited paper makes it clear that recycling of copper and bronze were indeed taking place in Britain, which the citation to the National Museum of Scotland I have added also mentions.

The second sentence quoted above me here is a little more troublesome, since it cited a 25-year old book, heavily abbreviating the title and without any sort of additional information (no google books link, no ISBN, but there was a page number at least). I am afraid I could not locate a copy of the 1997 edition of Coulston's "Roman Military Equipment (2? I really am not sure)" to verify whether or not the claim that the Deskford carnyx is possibly a Roman / Sarmatian draco cavalry standard, but if needs be I will make a more spirited attempt to do so. What I was able to find instead is a copy of a 2006 edition of I believe the same book, "Roman Military Equipment: From the Punic Wars to the Fall of Rome (2nd Edition)" by M.C. Bishop and J.C.N. Coulston. I assume this more recent work (there is also a 2016 edition, but I rather awkwardly have the one which is neither the version cited or the most up-to-date), and therefore a more accurate reflection of at least the opinions of the authors and / or editors, so I am not acting unreasonably by referring to it in the original source's place. There is, indeed, some discussion of dracones to be found in it, but not anything like the claim that the Deskford carnyx was an example of one. The carnyx is not mentioned at all, and (from pg. 185 in my copy):

"Fine dracones appear on the Antonine Portonaccio sarcophagus and the 3rd-century Ludovisi Sarcophagus. Indeed snake imagery, with its links to the Danubian Rider-God cult, was common in the decoration of 2nd- and 3rd-century cavalry equipment. The Niederbieber head and the Egyptian vexillum are the only two surviving items which undoubtedly come from military standards. Many which have been claimed as standard fittings, such as the Vindolanda horse statuette and numerous beneficiarius spearheads, had more plausible functions. The paucity of definite artefacts is perfectly understandable, given the spiritual, ritual and honorific value of standards to their military formations."

Almost the exact opposite claim is made, in fact. Either Bishop and Coulston backtracked on an earlier claim, or perhaps some extremely minor, petty conspiracy has been lurking here in this Start-class quality article about a big tube the Celts used to honk across the battlefield. A small part of me wonders if I have naively stumbled into some sort of obscure, esoteric grudge somebody has against the Picts? Fingers crossed this is not somehow related to political arguments about Scottish Nationalism or something. 𒆳𒄷 (kur^mušen) 03:02, 8 December 2023 (UTC)