Talk:Chanson

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Songs

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Why chanteuse?[edit]

Why does chanteuse redirect here?

Shouldn't there be some explanation of the relationship of the word "chanteuse" to "chanson" in the body of the article? --Robotech_Master 04:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

French[edit]

In modern French, "une chanson" normally means "a song". As described in "Chanson today" (I corrected the inadequate plural there was), one would say "la chanson française", or maybe "la chanson" by ellypsis (e.g. "J'aime beaucoup la chanson" means liking chanson française when no song is specifically mentionned). "Chanteur" means "singer", there is no specialization to be involved: Pavarotti, Britney Spears and Jacques Brel are all "chanteurs". It's like saying: "Singers specialized in songs are called singers." Just pure obviousness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.41.254.172 (talk) 08:48, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The english implication of the word is a french style of song, however, or at least french originated. It's a bit like how german boutique means something upscale. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.176.44.248 (talk) 20:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused. How can "chanson", in French, mean a specific genre when the word's usual meaning is "song"?

w:fr:chanson doesn't say that a "chanson" is a specific genre.

The only French concept I know that might be related is w:fr:chanson à texte (songs where the text of the verses, often a story, is the focus).

Can anyone clarify? Great floors (talk) 16:31, 1 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, because the whole article is ridiculous. See my comment under a new topic below. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do think it have issues, but I do think it's an interesting question. What's wikipedia policy regarding loanwords that take a colloquial sense that wasn't in original language --Ostream (talk) 19:36, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Example audio[edit]

This article would greatly benefit from an audio example. — C M B J 04:24, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nouvelle chanson[edit]

There is a discordance. The "Nouvelle chanson" section claims to be about what in France is called "chanson" or "chanson française" (meaning Édith Piaff, Trenet, Jacques Brel, Brassens or more modern artists like Dominique A, Alain Bashung or Miossec) but the main article of "Nouvelle chanson" (check the link which is proposed in the article) is about the "nouvelle scène française" so only artists from the 90s onwards.

So if "Nouvelle chanson" is the equivalent in English for what in France is called "chanson" or "chanson française" the link should redirect to an article that actually talks about that and not only about "nouvelle scène française". I think there are two possible solutions, or another article is made talking about the "chanson française" or the "Nouvelle chanson" article is expanded.

In the other hand if "Nouvelle chanson" refers to the "nouvelle scène française" then this article ("Chanson") must be changed. There must be another section between "Modern chanson" and "Nouvelle chanson" that talks about the "chanson française" from the beginnings of the XXth century until the 90s and the contents of the "Nouvelle chanson" section must be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.123.62.16 (talk) 09:32, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, me thinks[edit]

This whole prissy & artsy-fartsy nonsense should be deleted, lest we begin to have hundreds of thousands of articles on English Wikipedia named with a word in a foreign language but describing only a subject that goes in completely under the English word for it. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:58, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming to "Chanson francaise"[edit]

French native here, guys chanson just mean song... I was going to argue for deletion, but we do have an idiom for specifically french lyrical singing. Medias and the general public would use the term "Chanson francaise". I think it'd be better suited.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanson_fran%C3%A7aise

--Ostream (talk) 19:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

French song in that case. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:11, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, probably. The article also has a gaping hole where coverage of the period of Jacques Brel, Charles Trenet et al would go (neither are mentioned, though Piaf is). Apart from pre-classical stuff, if "Chanson francaise" means anything at all to modern English-speakers, it is probably that. Johnbod (talk) 04:37, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done - but that was instantaneously reversed without any discussion. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:52, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Notice to remove uncited material June 2021[edit]

For 10 years now, this article as per template has been missing inline citations to substantiate a large number of highfalutin (not to say hotsy-totsy) allegations and conjecture, and to motivate the existence of the article per se. It reads more like a personal essay giving the educational opinions of a talented music and/or French teacher, but not like a well-sourced Wikipedia article. Unless the requested inline citations are added soon, I will be removing all that stuff. Fair notice. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:30, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A source is also needed to clearly substantiate that chanson is the predominant (and title-worthy) denomination to use for an article on the topic of French songs on English Wikipedia (English) Wikipedia. Also see the previous 2 sections on this page immediately preceding this one. There is no clarity (none whatsoever) on that issue. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:38, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SergeWoodzing, "Chanson" does not refer to all French songs. It is a broad term, yes, but not broad enough to include every single song to French text in every possible genre (which is what "French song" would imply). I suggest you take a look at the Grove article; the word is usually used in the context of Early music (the "Historical chanson" section here, see also Britannica on the matter). The "Modern chanson" section is a bit more dubious, and perhaps only tangentially connected to the rest. As the English-Language Wikipedia, we should define words by their use in English—the idea that "Chanson" is perfectly replaced with French song would be incorrect (as it is not used in such way). I would suggest adding a hat note like "This article is about the use of the term in English, see Song for the French meaning" or something and would advise careful consideration on how to present the term more broadly in the lead, but continuing to stress the dominance on the Early music use. Best - Aza24 (talk) 19:51, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for constructive suggestions! I do not have access to the Grove article and do not intend to log in or subscribe. I do intend to remove everything from this article which has no source. Soon. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:12, 20 June 2021 (UTC)--SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:12, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You do have access—through the default library bundle at Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library (you just have to sign in, you pass the longevity and number of edits requirements). Otherwise you should be able to preview the opening paragraph regardless, which is helpful in itself. Aza24 (talk) 20:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"You do not currently have access to this article" fact. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:35, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if you purposely ignored what I just said, but go to here and sign in and you will have access. Refusing to do so is on you, but you have been given a source to one of the most authoritative encyclopedias on the subject. Removing information to improve the encyclopedia is helpful, but doing to for the sake of doing so (or worse, to prove a point) is not. Aza24 (talk) 20:41, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Neither I nor anyone else working on Wikipedia is obligated in any mandatory way to sign in to the library. Whatever you mean that I should look at can be quoted here, right? That's what inline citations are all about: verifying, citing, quoting, page numbers.

I will remove anything that does not have a reliable and (and) verifiable source, nothing else. Nothing else should be inferred, neither in a helpful nor an accusatory manner. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:48, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The German article de:Chanson is not bad, perhaps that can help. Normal French songs are mélodies. Chanson - to my understanding - is a very specific term for Early music chansons here, and 20th-century chansons there. Folksongs in French are no chansons, and artsongs in French are also no chansons. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:39, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Would be interesting with more reliable & verifiable sources, less personal opinions without such. Wikipedians adding stuff like this is how this is, and that is so, and I'm telling you all this or that is really of no value to an article without reliable sources. Takes up space and makes discussion much more tedious & difficult. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:08, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]