Talk:Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Propose changing African ancestry "myth" to "claim"

I'd like to change the term "myth" to "claim" in this entry. Myth implies a long-standing and popularly held belief that has no grounding or has even been disproven or countered with historical research. By contrast, in this case, recent (20th c.) scholars are building a claim from historical evidence and reasonable historical conjecture. The claim is highly contentious but seems to be made in good faith and remains open to scholarly critique. Some of the evidence is indeed comprised of rumors or comments from the past, but not ones that ever rose to the status of popular myth, more like quiet whispers, so "myth" seems inaccurate to describe them. All this also assumes that the term is being used neutrally here. In this case, though, the use of "myth" seems to be working to discredit the claims before they can be considered, so it may represent a bias in the entry. "Claim" is a neutral term implying some have made the claim with some evidence, but that it remains contested on legitimate grounds, where as "myth" asserts already that it is factually untrue. Any opposition to replacing the term "myth" with "claim"? Troutfang (talk) 14:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

There is no need to change it. It is not a widely held scholarly position — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.9.254.195 (talk) 13:34, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. I was unable to find a single peer reviewed article in Historical Abstracts to support this myth, and the entry on Princess Charlotte in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography Online (revised 21 May 2009) by Clarissa Campbell Orr makes no mention of it either. The "evidence" for this ancestor myth is the argument that Princess Charlotte had "African features." This is especially flimsy because there were numerous fraudulent portraits of the princess in circulation. See Timothy Clayton's "A Spurious Charlotte Exposed" in Print Quarterly. Sep2008, Vol. 25 Issue 3, p254-267. Abstract: "Investigates the scandal in which prominent London print sellers John Bowles and Robert Sayer advertised fake portraits of German princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz following her betrothal to British king George III. The fraudulent print, which depicts Mrs. Geo Pitt, appeared in newspapers and caused a stir in the art community in the early 1760's. Newspaper articles chronicle the publishing history of the false print, tracing it to artist Richard Houston, who went on weeks later to produce a real portrait of Queen Charlotte. The scandal reflected the ruthlessness of the business at a time when the print selling trade soared in London." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.222.70 (talk) 19:24, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

"Margarita de Castro e Souza, a 15th-century Portuguese noblewoman who traced her ancestry to King Afonso III of Portugal (1210–1279) and one of his mistresses, Madragana (c. 1230–?),[73] was from a "black branch of the Portuguese Royal House"" this appears to be the only real evidence, even if Madragana was black African, possible but statistically unlikely, after 5 centuries she would be one among something in the order of up to a million potential ancestors of Charlotte (assuming a generation is 25 years). We enter "no true scotsman" territory, if due to severe inbreeding and other sources of admixture (all speculative) she was by a miracle 0.1% black rather than 0.0001%, would she be black? It would not be in good faith to treat it like a legitimate claim, whether in light of the recent TV show or diversity or any other reason. If you want to attack someone, why attack people who hold to academic standards? Why pit diversity against it when there are real life equivalents like Alexander Pushkin and Alexandre Dumas fully supported by people who value facts and the truth and will never yield? 2A00:23C7:69A6:D01:7CBD:767D:2745:83D9 (talk) 12:40, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Agreed! Abedidos (talk) 04:38, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

It's a ridiculous myth and shouldn't be given the time of day on Wikipedia as the "claim" is pseudohistory. I propose it remains as is or be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c4:1e95:2201:4895:8967:4ba4:1a71 (talk • contribs) 00:13, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Agree. The original proposal suggested using "claim" instead of "myth" because the word "myth" implies a longstanding idea or story. The word "claim" is defined by Macmillan as "a statement that something is true, even though you have no definite proof." Definitely not implying it is a scholar-held opinion.

Since this idea has been floating about for, what, 25 years, I opine that "claim" is a more accurate description than "myth". It should be changed. History Lunatic (talk) 01:44, 4 November 2021 (UTC)History Lunatic

Black Ancestry?

Does a person who MAY have had 0.0000029% Arab blood make them black? In that case we can all claim to be just about anything we like. This is just silly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rustygecko (talk • contribs) 10:35, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

You are exctly right. That is specially amusing for a Brazilian. In Brazil most white people have more than 10% non white ancestry. Knoterification (talk) 04:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)