Talk:Chicano Park

Untitled

I expect the San Diego community to contribute to this page...--Rockero 04:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Bias and disputed tags

I asked the editor who tagged the article to explain why over a week ago. As there is still no discussion on the matter, I have removed them. Please feel free to put them back up with an explanation.--Rockero 21:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

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Edits by Roger Ogden

This article has a number of edits, some this year and some in 2018, by someone with the user name "Roger Ogden", who would seem to be the same Roger Ogden widely documented (including in the article itself) as having organized protests against the park. In addition to the obvious conflict of interests and violation of NPOV this situation presents on its face, almost all of this user's edits (as well as those of anonymous mobile editors coinciding in time and content with Ogden's logged-in edits that are almost certainly also the work of the same person) have been comments hostile to the park. Furthermore, Ogden has linked to his own media as "sources" for edits he has made, and while not logged in seems to have taken steps to hide that fact: in a 2018 edit sandwiched between other Ogden edits and taking place minutes before Ogden edited the article while logged in, the author name on the citation to a page on Ogden's Scribd account was changed from last1=Ogden |first1=Roger to last1=Superior Court File |first1= . Many of the edits are at best tenuously connected to the park or seek to paint the Chicano Park Steering Committee as one step away from a terrorist organization. Possibly the majority of his "work" on the article has been edits to the "Controversies" section, where (in addition to grinding various political axes against the park) he has concentrated on heavily rewriting the list items concerning his own actions by continuously inserting more and more language designed to make him and his supporters look like innocent victims and his opponents as a rabid mob; regardless of one's opinions about the motives of either side, the result is a cartoonish violation of NPOV. The version before his 2018 edits read as follows:

• On September 3, 2017 alt-right blogger Roger Ogden organized a "Patriot Picnic" at the park in protest of its supposed "anti-American" features. Over 500 attended the counter-demonstration to prevent the group from entering the park, and Ogden and his group were eventually escorted out by police.
• On the morning of February 3, 2018 a second "Patriot Picnic" was organized by an anonymous group, calling itself "Bordertown Patriots", with the intention of flying the U.S. flag in the center of the park. Ogden was again involved, as were a number of alt-right figures such as Joey Gibson. Hundreds of people came to again prevent the right-wing from entering the park. Two of the "patriots" were arrested, one for possession of a billy club and another for public urination. Police also attacked and beat a man who was allegedly jaywalking, who was subsequently arrested for assault on a peace officer; despite initial press reports to the contrary, the man was not involved with either side of the protests.

The version following his barrage of edits, with new language bolded:

• On September 3, 2017 Blogger, Roger Ogden, a critic of the park organized a "Patriot Picnic" at the park for a group of five persons to discuss among themselves the "anti-American" features of some murals. Over 500 attended the counter-demonstration to prevent the private group from accessing the park. Ogden and his small group were eventually escorted out by dozens of police for their own safety, due to the threat from the angry crowd of park supporters.
• On the morning of February 3, 2018 a second "Patriot Picnic" was organized by an anonymous group, calling itself "Bordertown Patriots", with the intention of flying the U.S. flag in the center of the park. Ogden was again involved, as were a number of "patriot" figures such as Joey Gibson. Hundreds of people came to again prevent the group from entering the park. Two of the "patriots" were arrested, one for possession of a alleged "billy club" and another was cited for public urination in the free speech zone, where the group was confined with no facilities for hours. Police also arrested Frederick Burnett Jefferson, who was subsequently convicted of felony assault on a badly-injured police officer, as well as two felony counts and one misdemeanor count of resisting arrest Jefferson was sentenced to seven years in prison on August 31, 2018. That same night he was found dead in his jail cell. An investigation is underway. While in jail he had also been implicated via DNA in a rape in Maryland and faced another trial.

Another string of edits earlier this year contained even more self-serving language:

• On September 3, 2017, Blogger, Roger Ogden, a critic of the park organized a "Patriot Picnic" at the park for a group of five persons to discuss privately among themselves anti-American and anti-police features of some murals. Over 500 attended the counter-demonstration to prevent the small group from peacefully accessing the park. Ogden and his small group were eventually escorted out by dozens of police for their own safety, due to the threat from an angry mob of hundreds of park supporters.
• On the morning of February 3, 2018, a second "Patriot Picnic" was organized by an anonymous group, calling itself "Bordertown Patriots", with the intention of flying the U.S. flag in the center of the park. Ogden was again involved, as were a number of "patriot" figures such as Joey Gibson. Hundreds of people came to again prevent the group from entering the park via the threat of mob violence. Two of the "patriots" were arrested, one for possession of an alleged "billy club" and another was cited for public urination in the free speech zone, where the group was confined by the police for hours due to the threat of violence from the surrounding park supporters with no restroom facilities. Police also arrested Frederick Burnett Jefferson, who was subsequently convicted of felony assault on a badly-injured police officer, as well as two felony counts and one misdemeanor count of resisting arrest Jefferson was sentenced to seven years in prison on August 31, 2018. That same night he was found dead in his jail cell. An investigation has been completed. He committed suicide by hanging. While in jail he had also been implicated via DNA in a rape in Maryland and faced another trial.

I have reverted all of his edits to the article, including those from 2018. (I also made other edits prior to realizing Ogden's involvement in the article.) I am not arguing that any other version of the text is completely free of any bias, but the obvious conflict of interest combined with the clearly self-serving nature of the edits leads me to propose that user Roger Ogden be blocked from making any further edits to this article. (I would appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction as to where to formally make this request.) -Literally Satan (talk) 08:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I have no personal interest in this park. I am just a blogger who has studied the history of the park and I am a critic of the park. I am not an "alt-right" blogger as you say, showing your own bias trying to demonize me. I am a conservative, constitutionalist blogger. I began blogging in 2008, which is about 8 years before there was an alt right. I never belonged to any alt right groups.

I realize I cannot advocate politics, but I think I have some facts to add that would be beneficial to this Wiki. If I did not do edits correctly it is only due to my inexperience with editing Wikipedia and that can be corrected. I did research and development as my career. Though it was not in this area, I know how to look things up and will go to the trouble to do research to support my work.

I have some information about a grand jury investigation of the relationship of the Chicano Park Steering Committee with the Chicano Federation. The Chicano Federation has always been a legitimate nonprofit charity. Without going into detail, it was found that the Chicano Park Steering Committee was having a very bad influence on the Chicano Federation, not the reverse, as Literally Satan maliciously implies. The Grand Jury recommended that the two groups be separated, not due to bad behavior of the Federation, but due to the malfeasance of the Steering Committee members and others involved with the Park. There was property being stolen and funds misappropriated by the Chicano Park leadership and the Federation members were being physically intimidated. I uploaded the entire Grand Jury report and cited that. It is not my own work that I am citing, but court case documents.

I also researched David Rico's background, who was one of the Founders of the Park and a leading member of the Steering Committee until his recent death. He was also the national head of the Brown Berets, a kind of Chicano militia group. The same year he founded the Park he was convicted of criminal syndicalism, the crime that they charged terrorists with, before there were anti-terrorism laws. He and two other radicals plotted to firebomb City College, the investigators also believe they plotted to attack San Diego City's critical infrastructure and they wanted to start a revolution. I uploaded the most important parts from the court case file and cited that.

I actually never organized a protest at Chicano Park. I really did just plan to go there to give a few people a private tour of the politically provocative murals in the Park. My belief is that one of the radicals connected to the park had me unknowingly add him to my email list. That person snooped on my email and he publicized that we were coming and he and others organized a crowd of more than 500 to prevent us form using the Park. We went to the Park anyway, after we knew a angry crowd was being organized against us, just to show that we would not be intimidated and were determined to get out the truth about the political radicalism associated with the Park. The police protected us that day from the angry crowd.

"Literally Satan", also deleted a number of photos that I made of park murals. They were all valid photos and should not have been deleted. They were deleted because they show a part of the park that they do not want the general public to see, but I think the public needs to be informed about the radical side of this Park.

I would request that "Literally Satan" be blocked from this page, because he reversed all of my edits in a very unfair way, some of them very well supported with references to court documents. If there were any problems, it should have been discussed one-by-one. All of my edits should not have been deleted wholesale and neither should valid photos of the murals be wantonly deleted as he did. TRobles (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Sorry above should have been posted under Roger Ogden. RogerO (talk) 02:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I never called anyone "alt-right", and I didn't make any statement about the relationship between the Chicano Federation and the Chicano Park Steering Committee. I came to the article, saw the section about the protests in 2017 and 2018, and rewrote them to try to bring them to a neutral point of view. Only after I made a couple of edits did I see that many edits had been made by a source directly involved in the events described in the article, almost all of which were either self-serving or inflammatory and most of which were completely unsourced. The edits I made after this discovery were not endorsements of any previous version of the article; they were simply reversions of inappropriate edits made by a particular user for reasons stated above.

I have made a formal request for a page ban on the administrators' noticeboard. All interested parties are requested to weigh in on that page. Thank you. -Literally Satan (talk) 11:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)