Talk:Chronological list of American classical composers

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Composers

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Composers, a group of editors writing and developing biographical articles about composers of all eras and styles. The project discussion page is the place to talk about technical and editorial issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!ComposersWikipedia:WikiProject ComposersTemplate:WikiProject ComposersComposers articles

Arrangement[edit]

Maybe it would be better to arrange simply by "Born in 18th century", "Born in 19th century", "Born in 20th century"? The current arrangement is by genre, and not everyone born in the same time period wrote in the same genre. I'm thinking, for example, of Scott Joplin, who would belong under "Romantic" in the current arrangement, but I'd hardly call him a Romantic composer. I did add Henry Clay Work and Stephen Forster to Romantic, but perhaps this list is supposed to focus more on composers of instrumental music than on songwriters? +An gr 09:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, this list is supposed to be based on American classical composers. Classicalfan2 (talk) 22:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Right, but defined how? What definition of "classical composer" includes George Gershwin and Philip Glass but excludes Scott Joplin? I see you removed Henry Clay Work again. That's fine, but if we exclude Work, we should probably exclude Foster as well; he was really a writer of popular songs rather than a classical composer (although he did influence composers such as Puccini and Ives). +An gr 13:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Through my experience of reading about and listening to classical music, George Gershwin and Philip Glass have many more classical music traits than Scott Joplin, Henry Clay Work, or (apparently) Stephen Foster. For instance, Gershwin composed in a modernist style fused with jazz and other popular music, and Glass is a composer in the contemporary style (like John Cage). Scott Joplin was a ragtime composer and a forerunner of jazz and has minimal (if not, no) classical music traits. And Work and Foster mostly focused on popular songs, although Foster wrote "Beautiful Dreamer", which sounds Romantic. I hope this helps. Classicalfan2 (talk) 14:49, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Still, if you go to your local record store and look for CDs of Scott Joplin, you'll find him in the Classical section, not in the Jazz section, and the recording will almost certainly have been made by someone known as a classical pianist, not a jazz pianist. I'd say Joplin is then at least perceived as a classical composer, even if his compositions don't necessarily have a classical form. I discovered this page because a German co-worker of mine (I'm an American living in Germany) asked me for the names of some American classical composers so she could get an idea of what American classical music sounds like - and in addition to Ives and Copland, I recommended Scott Joplin. Then I went to Wikipedia and found this list and List of American composers for some more names I had forgotten, such as Amy Beach, Charles Griffes, and Samuel Barber (who I keep forgetting was American; I keep expecting him to have been British). +An gr 15:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So, what do you think we should do with this page and chronological lists of composers of other nationalities (i.e. French, Italian, German)? Classicalfan2 (talk) 21:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I guess a clearer, preferably objective, definition of the criteria for inclusion in the list would be a good place to start. +An gr 21:53, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry for the delay, as I have read this response much earlier. But how do you think we should put a suggestion through so we could get a third idea? Classicalfan2 (talk) 21:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A Request for Comment? +An gr 21:28, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Sorry for the delay. Classicalfan2 (talk) 21:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Chronological lists of classical composers[edit]

Another user has suggested that there should be a "clearer definition of the criteria" for the inclusion of composers into my chronological lists of classical composers. I thought it was okay the way it was, but obviously not all people think the same way. Any suggestions? Classicalfan2 (talk) 21:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But what is "the way it was"? I haven't seen the other lists in this series, but this one doesn't even have a lead paragraph. Who counts as a classical composer? We talked above about whether Scott Joplin is one. Who counts as an American? Could Thea Musgrave be added to the list? She was born in Scotland, but has apparently become an American citizen. +An gr 22:02, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I meant "the way it is". By the way, you're the one who suggested the RfC, no? Also, I don't know how I would go about writing a lead paragraph explaining the criteria without possibly making grammatical errors. I'm also not sure how to explain it in words. But let us not be alone in this discussion and consult an expert who might know how to solve our problem. Antandrus, perhaps? Classicalfan2 (talk) 01:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry about grammatical errors. It's a wiki: if you make any, someone will fix them! I'm hoping the RFC tag will bring more editors into the conversation, though we may have to wait a day or two for them to show up. +An gr 09:22, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just gave it my best shot. Classicalfan2 (talk) 01:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to request for participation via Community Portal: The idea of a list of American composers by birthday is a good one. Wikipedia needs a function to generate lists of birthdays of notable persons by category. That way, with a few clicks, the system itself would give all people who have bio articles tagged "American Composer". Doing it manually is much less efficient, and leaves open the accuracy issues identified elsewhere in this discussion. Here.it.comes.again (talk) 05:34, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to rename[edit]

I propose to rename this page to "Chronological list of American composers", for these reasons:

There are more than a few here whose music would not fit within the definition of the "classical" style. William B. Bradbury, for example.
There are some here who wrote "classical"-style music and also in other styles.
The definition of "classical" used on this page cannot be based on the Classical Music Era, because it deliberately includes other eras. The definition must refer to the "classical" style of music, which spanned several eras and centuries.
There is no other list (that I know) that shows American music composers chronologically.

Otherwise, I like the current format of the page. Separate pages by centuries or musical eras would not be helpful, I think; but perhaps "classical" style could be a subdivision of "Chronological list of American composers".

Please also notice this wonderful page on the German Wikipedia – over 800,000 articles. Extremely useful, not just for composers! – Bcjohnston (talk) 19:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]