Talk:Civilización o Barbarie

Content dispute

In this edit, I had undertaken a major rewrite of this article to address several issues:* WP:MOS issues involving poorly formatted headers (we don't use "big" tags in headers to make them bigger), and we don't arbitrarily introduce font changes that may not be supported on all users' browsers).* WP:COPYVIO issues involving wholesale quoting of prior performance notes* WP:NPOV issues wherein the text appears to be very much trying to promote the piece rather than simply describe it.In this edit, Goliath613 (talk · contribs) reverted my edits, noting WP:IAR.  As I have pointed out on User talk:Goliath613, WP:IAR is intended to encourage users to improve the encyclopedia, despite any rules that might be in the way.  It is not intended to give carte blanch to users to create poorly formatted, spammy, copyright violating content.I invite Goliath to explain here why xyr version should be preferred.  Other users are, of course, welcome to comment as well. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 11:26, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

This is article is a total disaster. With the amount of problems here, WP:AFD, followed by a well-done recreation, may be the best solution. Toccata quarta (talk) 12:57, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Toccata, were you able look at my version to see if it was any better? WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:26, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

In contrast to you and since we are making an entrance about something as intangible as music (which the reader can not listen to), I believe (this) program notes (without doing any judgement about the content), could give the reader of the Wikipedia some inside about the way the artist thinks and feels about (his) music etc. If you think such an inside is irrelevant, it remains only your opinion of which I take notice. The copyright issues are covered in that we asked the artist for his permission to publish the material here. If you know how this can be made official (as with the visual material (which I hope he will have permissioned in the near future) please help with this issue.--Hammero (talk) 14:51, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Two points: WP:COPYVIO and WP:PSTS. Toccata quarta (talk) 15:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

To expand on Toccata's brief note, copying the text verbatim from other sources violates Wikipedia's copyright policy.  This can be managed by reading the information at WP:Donating copyrighted material, but doing so is usually not worth the effort because the borrowed text rarely has the proper encyclopedic value.::::: The second point Toccata has brought up is the problem with using primary sources.  While there may be some value in "knowing the composer's mind" about the music, it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to serve as the artist's direct means of communicating with his listening audience.  If the artist wishes to do so, there are many avenues available to him; Wikipedia is not one of them.  What we need here is a brief description noting that the artist does have very specific instructions in mind for performances of this music, as can be cited from various published sources.  What we do not need (as it serves no encyclopedic value) is a detailed description of each venue in which the music was performed.  Such material detracts from the readers' understanding of the article rather than adding to it, as long unbroken piles of text such as this are entirely likely to be skipped by all but the most esoterically-minded readers.  Remember, this is a general-purpose encyclopedia, not a musicology journal.  Also, what we do not need is material that is formatted oddly, violating Wikipedia's manual of style, which is written to optimize the readability and accessibility of pages.  Hammero and Goliath have added large pieces of text formatted in a Calibri font, which may not be available on all users' computers.  It is unknown how such text will be rendered when the required fonts are not available.  Instead, text should be left with no specific font designation, allowing Wikipedia's style sheets (and the user's own preferences) to determine which fonts to use.

Also, the use of references quoted from the composer's private notes and journals is not allowed, unless Mr. Kuczer is willing to let any Wikipedia editor who has the desire to do so to knock upon his door and demand production of the matierals for review and verification.  In order to verify Wikipedia content, sources must be publicly available; not held in private collections.::::: The final point I would like to make in arguing against the current form of the article is the use of extensive, but somewhat unrelated, quotes in the references. Brief snippets of quotes may be made (and these, better in the main body of the article) to give the flavor or the review without quoting so extensively as to run into copyright issues or to sound overtly enthusiastic.  Remember, we are trying to present a neutral view of the music, not a paean to the music.— Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiDan61 (talk • contribs) 17:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

All that eloquence, and I forgot to sign!  Ooops! WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:31, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

From the beginning my feeling was, that what you are doing here, what your true interest was, is more about you trying to make your way (up), with some petulance and arrogance, in the wiki, than your interest for the wiki, the artist, the article itself, and most important its content. You assert things as if there would be a known "truth" which they certainly are not. (...What we need here... or What we do not need (as it serves no encyclopedic value) or ... Such material detracts from the readers' understanding of the article rather than adding to it as long unbroken piles of text such as this are entirely likely to be skipped by all but the most esoterically-minded readers...) . So, all of these sounds pretty esoteric to me and remains to be proven. You do not seem to be a very profound reader...In respect to the (five) concerts described, as I understand it, they are given only as a concrete example of how a concert might be actually formed and organized (the composer claims that there might be more than 30000 possible combinations, which would be difficult to manage without some guide). You do not seem to understand, that in this case, we are talking about tape-music, for which no performing score exists... We thought the drawings and the descriptions of very unusual concert situations would interest a reader of an article about electronic and electroacoustic music (I admitted my mistake in uploading them, since i did not realize the field (i think it was, "my own"), was to appear if not completed by me and I thought copying what the artist wrote to me when sending the pictures by mail, would be the easiest way, without bothering the artist again, to make sure the copyright stayed with him.). Regarding the quotes and critics to the concerts, if you look at the first version done by Goliath613, you will see that there were almost no quotes at all. He decided to bring them in, (and we had to ask the artist to specially search for them and send them to us (since he did not find that to be that interesting)), as the notability of the pieces was put into question. So as to address that point thoroughly, we decided to put them all. Perhaps they need not be there and could be perhaps taken away once the notability is decided. I will of course admit questions and help about formatting text, if there is a true standard for that, since I myself am new to the Wikipedia, and I am only helping because of the english, and are still trying things out to see how they result (not so Goliath613, who has written more than 60 articles in the German one, between others, the longest existing one) (You tried to lecture him, although you seem to have only written three, very short ones...). I did not find your version of the CoB article to be a bad one. I thought the way you did it, the "cut to size" act, was arrogant, without knowledge about the subject and without a true feeling for the thing.
The article could also have read as follows:
Civilización o Barbarie (Civilization or Barbarism) is a tape-cycle from 1984 by the Argentinian composer Bernardo Mario Kuczer. Its existence can be asserted, because it is included in the INDEX in: Music since 1900, 6th Edition Kuhn, Laura, Schirmer Books 2001, p. 1003, that of Kuczer, because he is included in the German telephone book.
Let's wait for Jerome Kohl's advice then.--Hammero (talk) 20:07, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Since I have been personally invited to give an opinion, I shall do so. First of all, WikiDan61's edit was entirely appropriate, and Goliath613's reversion, although undoubtedly made in good faith, appears mainly due to inexperience with Wikipedia formatting, style, and verification conventions (for example, published vs unpublished sources). As to the content, here too I must side generally with WikiDan61. There is too much trivial detail, and not enough general introduction aimed at the uninitiated reader. In particular, the material on different versions should be consolidated under a simple heading such as "Performance practice", with an explanation like, "The work is conceived modularly. The constituent parts may be presented separately or in various combination, with as many as 30,000 different combinations possible. Some realized examples are ...", with a brief presentation of three or four of the performances presently given in list format, omitting all unnecessary details (all that is required is place and date of performance, the segments included, in their order of appearance, and the overall timing of the version). Also, the two very long headers should be trimmed to just three or four words, which should not be difficult at all. This will do to be getting on with.–Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

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