Talk:Clan Carruthers

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Article needs complete re-write[edit]

Ok this article needs to be completely re-written. As I will demonstrate it does not meet Wikipedia standards in terms of sourcing, reflecting what the sources say and using sources that directly support the info in the article: I have started checking the website references you have used: You have written in the article: "The Carruthers Clan is unofficially represented by the current Proprietor of The Dormont Estate: Mr J.A. Carruthers." However the reference you have given:[1] does not say anything whatsoever to support this statement. All it gives is a contact address for the proprietor of the estate. It says absolutely nothing about the Clan Carruthers and who represents it. Therefore this will have to go for a start. Ok next you have written: "Sometimes considered a Sept of the Bruce Clan by members of Both Families, because of a long history of marriages & close relations beginning shortly after the Arrival of De Brus' of Normandy." However the reference you have given: [2] says absolutely nothing to support this statement. All it shows is that Carruthers is considered a sept of Clan Bruce. The reference says absolutely nothing about Carruthers and "marriages & close relations beginning shortly after the Arrival of De Brus' of Normandy". Therefore this will have to go as well. Next you have written: "The Carruthers Clan & Kinship Has a long history that predates the Norman Invasions & thus the arrival & Invention of the Bruce's as a Scottish Clan" and given references: [3] and [4], once again there is nothing in these sources that directly supports the statement you have written in the Wikipedia article. Next you have written the statement: "Historically Arms were presented to individuals as an Honor, Often for exceptional service to the "Land", or the Country. Coats of Arms were traditionally designed using symbols that represent the specific acts of service being Honored." and given reference: [5] once again there is absolutely nothing in this source to support your written statement. Ok next you have written "Carruthers, likely Meaning "Caer"-"Rydderch" (Rydderch's Fort) was first documented in writing during, but pre-dates, the early 12th Century, when William de Carruthers Made a donation to the Abbey of Newbattle" and given reference [6], and what a surprise the source says nothing about when Rydderch's Fort was first documented and nothing about pre-dating the early 12th century, and nothing to support your written statement. Ok, next you have written the statement: "At one Point the Name was pronounced "Cridders" or "Kridders", quoting references: [7] and [8], the first reference says nothing about how the name was "at one point pronounced" and the second reference only mentions how it is "locally" pronounced. So once again what you are writing is not directly supported by the source. Ok, next you have statement: "Clan Carruther & Clan Rutherford share a common History & Location, as well as the Ancient Kings Name, Ruther, The names similarities suggests that, The Carruthers Lived in, Built or Protected Ruther's Fort(s), While the Rutherford's Lived Around the Fort(s). The two Families seem to Merge in the 12th century when the Rutherford's Can be traced to Flanders" and given reference:[9] which is about Clan Rutherford and says absolutely nothing about Clan Carruthers and therefore again your statement is not supported by the source. This is exactly how you are not supposed to write a Wikipedia article. I am going to copy my evidence to the article talk page so that Wikipedia admin can see it, as I have no choice but to completely re-write the article. And by the way Halbert's Family Heritage are known to be very unreliable.QuintusPetillius (talk) 11:36, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The re-write was done respectfully, I apologize for misinterpreting your intent. Thank you. Comradcaer (talk) 21:03, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions[edit]

Strait From the book (Records of the Carruthers Family) A well written & sourced book, Not Halbert's

"According to Dr. Robert Clapperton the first mention of the Carruthers family in mediaeval times is in the reign of Alexander II (1215-45), When William de Carruthers Made a donation to the Abbey of Newbattle. Among those who swore Fealty to Edward I of England in 1296 was Simon Carrutherw, parson of Middlebie".(1) sourced on the page (Hist. Mss. Comm., 6th Rept., Appx., p. 709.)

My Suggestion,

The First documented Member of the Carruthers Family to be Mentioned by name was (is) William de Carruthers when he Made a donation to the Abbey of Newbattle during the early 13th Century.

How would you write this?

Is my source written up to Standards?

(Records of the Carruthers Family, Compiled by A. Stanley Carruthers, FSA (scor.), and C. Reid., London Elliot Stock,1958., P. 49)Comradcaer (talk) 21:03, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What primary source is cited for the donation to the Abbey of Newbattle? There's no name looking anything like Carruthers in the abbey's register [10].

Black notes the record of Simon - without giving a specific date - but none of the other early forms of the name he lists date earlier than the fourteenth century. In fact the reference to Simon isn't backed up by a primary source at all; it merely comes from a nineteenth-century description of the family that doesn't give a source for the factoid [11]. I'm surprised Black even mentioned it.

The Dictionary of American Family Names states that the earliest record of the name dates to 1334 (Carrothres) [12]. Here's a link to a PhD thesis on Cumbrian place names, one of which is Carruthers [13]. The author gives several early forms of the name. The first being Karothris (to which the author cites the Exchequer Rolls, 1264-1359), and the second is Car-rothres in 1334 (to which he cites Registrum Monasteri de Passelet). The register can be viewed here, see bottom paragraph on page 140 for Nigello de Carrotherys [14]. I don't think the Exchequer Rolls source can be viewed online, but if you plug "Karothris" into GoogleBooks you'll find an academic book review that notes the chamberlain "Nigel de Karothris" (citing the Exchequer Rolls, volume 1, page 458). This must be the record noted in the thesis. Black gives a couple records noting Nigel in the early fourteenth century.

Anyway, unless it's clear that Clapperton had an historical source for his claim about the donation to Newbattle, I think we should follow the date given by the Dictionary of American Family Names. It's a reliably published source (Oxford University Press), more modern that Black, and therefore presumably more reliable in it's treatment of historical sources. At least we're assured that its claim itself is supported by a primary source. Black lists a supposedly earlier record of the name to the reign of Robert I, but since the Dictionary of American Family Names and the thesis make no mention of this, I think there must be some sort of error with Black's source (perhaps it refers to the reign of Robert II instead?).--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:24, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, Sounds Reasonable. TY.Comradcaer (talk) 01:44, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the primary source used by the Carruthers family is that of Carruthers and Reid ‘records of the Carruthers family’ published in 1932 which gathered information from the main family lines of Holmains and Dormont as well as others. Bruce7169 (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of unsourced information[edit]

Just repeating a message that I posted to: User talk:Caruthers32. Let's just be perfectly clear about what Wikipedia is about. It is about writing articles with information that are reflected in the sources being quoted. I have noticed that another user, (Maybe its you ?), has been doing extensive damage to the Clan Carruthers article in which they are doing the exact opposite of what Wikipedia is about and adding lots of unsourced information. The rules of Wikipedia allow for all of this unsourced info to be removed. The only reason I haven't done it already is because they have not touched the important history section that I started. Also, the said editor, when having added a few sources seems to have resorted to the official Clan Carruthers website, when really we should be looking for proper published secondary sources.QuintusPetillius (talk) 09:28, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Campbells[edit]

I was born in Glasgow Scotland, my mother was Campbell, my Grandaughters father is Carruth. I was wondering if there was any history between the clans. 2600:1700:5620:41E0:6C24:D9DA:4E8F:4EC3 (talk) 16:37, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]