Talk:Comb Ceramic culture

Place names dating from the stone age?[edit]

Is this a hypothesis or how can they tell an absolute age for a place name? An interesting find. Where may I read more?Clarifer

Within the Jäkärlä group there are empty dolmens made of sandstone.

Those structures have nothing to do with dolmens, and they have been re-dated to the Pre-Roman Iron Age. Earlier they were associated with Jäkärlä group, but this is not accepted anymore. 217.112.242.181 13:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Coming back to the topic: Old place names (toponymes) can be adopted by invadors or replaced by own ones, which linguists most times are able to recognize. In particular North America gives a plenty of examples. You can not normally be sure about their age.2A02:8108:9640:AC3:E5F8:91CE:D0F:830 (talk) 16:03, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Article name[edit]

Shoulden´t the main article name be Comb Ceramic Culture and the redirect be "Pit-Comb Ware culture", instead of the other way around? Is this realy the most common name fore the culture in english? --MiCkE^d _b 14:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A quick googling suggests you may be right. However, I don't know if they are the same thing or if one is a subcategory of the other. Anyone? Clarifer 12:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't even heard the expression "Pit-Comb Ware culture" before (although that doesn't have to mean anything, I work mostly with the Swedish Stone Age, and in swedish)... Anyway I'll try to move it back to the original name then. --MiCkE^d _b 17:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, tried it. As I suspected there is article history in the way, we need a sysop to do it. Do I put {{Move}} on top of the article page or on this talk page or what? Is there a separate page where you can request a page to be moved? (I'm new to enwp). --MiCkE^d _b 17:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article has been renamed from Pit-Comb Ware culture to Comb Ceramic culture as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 06:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pit/Comb Ware is ten times as common on GBooks, so I moved it back. (It's also the only name I've ever seen for it.) — kwami (talk) 22:06, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Distribution[edit]

"Would" it include the Varva culture - or "did" it?? 195.4.78.10 (talk) 12:51, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not grasped?

Further: the here described distribution differs considerably from the map! Experts, please help and correct both! 2A02:8108:9640:AC3:C114:BC81:C99B:A1EB (talk) 06:54, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Map[edit]

What is this map supposed to show? Many of the cultures on the map are not contemporary at all, and large sections are blank. Megalophias (talk) 23:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comb Ware, Liao civilization, and genetics[edit]

Caveat! Before we can accept the following views, the author has to prove that CCC is congruent with Y-hg N from the beginning. Up to now it is hazardous speculation.2A02:8108:9640:AC3:E5F8:91CE:D0F:830 (talk) 16:08, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This edit added the following text:

Looking also outside Europe, Pit–Comb Ware developed in the northern woodlands of Eurasia, and widely distributed in the Baltic, Finland, the Volga upstream flow, south Siberia, Lake Baikal, Mongolian Plateau, Liaodong Peninsula and the Korean Peninsula. The oldest ones have been discovered from the remains of Liao civilization - xinglongwa culture (BC 6200 - 5400 BC) -.^[1] It appears in 4200 BC in Finland and 4000 BC in the Korean Peninsula, so the Urheimat is assumed to be Liao region and spread afterward to North Europe through Siberia and to Korean peniusla. This is possibly related to Uralic migration and spread of haplogroup N (Y-DNA). In recent genetic analysis of ancient human bones excavated from the remains of Liao civilization (Hongshan culture etc.), haplogroup N1 (Y-DNA) was found with high frequency of 67-100%.^[2] So, a new possibility arose that the Urheimat of both Uralic peoples and Comb Ceramic is the Liao river region.

There are a lot of problems with this text, so I've added several source-tags and OR-tags:

Comb Ware developed in the northern woodlands of Eurasia, and was widely distributed in the Baltic, Finland, the Volga upstream flow, south Siberia, Lake Baikal, Mongolian Plateau, Liaodong Peninsula and the Korean Peninsula.^{[citation needed]} The oldest tokens of Comb Ware have been discovered from the remains of Liao civilization - xinglongwa culture (BC 6200 - 5400 BC) -.^[3] It appears in 4200 BC in Finland and 4000 BC in the Korean Peninsula,^{[citation needed]} so the Urheimat is assumed to be Liao region and spread afterward to North Europe through Siberia and to Korean peniusla.^{[citation needed]} This is possibly related to Uralic migration and spread of haplogroup N (Y-DNA).^{[citation needed]}

In recent genetic analysis of ancient human bones excavated from the remains of Liao civilization (Hongshan culture etc.), haplogroup N1 (Y-DNA) was found with high frequency of 67-100%.^[4] So, a new possibility arose that the Urheimat of both Uralic peoples and Comb Ceramic is the Liao river region.^{[citation needed]}

References

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:09, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Japanese article does not mention Europe; the genetic study says nothing about Uralic. WP:OR indeed. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:16, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The oldest Pit-Comb Ware is discovered from remains of Xinglongwa culture (6200 BC - 5400 BC), in Liao river region, north China.

中国北方新石器文化研究の新展開【詳細報告】「東北アジアにおける先史文化の交流」王巍（中国社会科学院考古研究所・副所長）(in Japanese)

5．中国東北部の興隆窪文化

ここ十年来、…

興隆窪遺跡は…

興隆窪遺跡の土器のほとんどは平底の円筒形土器であり、口縁外部、頸部と胴部にはそれぞれ違う文様を施すのも特徴的である。連続の櫛目文が最も代表的な文様で、そのほか周回文、押型文、箆（へら）描き文、爪形文などがある（図3）。

…

5．Xinglongwa culture in north-east China

ここ十年来、…

興隆窪遺跡は…

Most of the earthenware of the Xinglongbu ruins is a flat-bottomed cylindrical pottery, and it is also characteristic to apply different patterns to the outside of the rim, the neck and the torso. Continuous combs are the most representative patterns, and others are orchestra, pressed form, spatula drawing and nail form (Figure 3).

…

And it spread to Siberia later.

世界大百科事典第２版の解説(in Japanese)

＜くしめもんどき　櫛目文土器＞

櫛歯状の施文具で文様の施された土器の総称。世界各地の各種時期の土器に認められるが，狭義には北欧から西シベリアにかけて分布する新石器時代の土器，また朝鮮半島の新石器時代の有文土器ないし幾何文土器と呼称されるものを指すのが普通である。西シベリアの沿オビ地域の新石器時代の土器(前4千年紀終末～前3千年紀後半)は，すべて櫛目文を有する丸底土器である。このような器面全体を櫛目文でおおう新石器時代の丸底土器は，エニセイ流域のウニュク遺跡(前4千年紀終末～前3千年紀初頭)やアンガラ上流域のウスチ･ベラヤ遺跡第IIa層(前5千年紀)からも出土している。

＜Pit-Comb Ware＞

It is a collective term of earthenware to which a pattern is given with a comb-toothed facsimile. It is recognized in the earthenware of various times around the world, but in the narrow sense it refers to the Neolithic pottery distributed from the Northern Europe to the West Siberia, also referred to as the Neolithic Era figured pottery or geometric patterned pottery of the Korean Peninsula. The Neolithic pottery in the Ob region, in the western Siberian region (from the end of the previous millennium to the latter half of the third millennium) is a round bottom soil with comb text. The Neolithic round bottom soil cladding which covers the entire surface of this instrument as a texture of a comb is also excavated from the Uenuc ruins of the Enisei watershed (from the end of the 4th millennium to the beginning of the 3 rd millennium Beginning) and the Ust-Bereya ruins IIa layer (the 5th millennium)in the upper region of Angara.

Estimated time Pit-Comb Ware arrived:

Xinglongwa culture : 8200-7400 years BP
upper region of Angara : 7000-6000 years BP
Enisei watershed : about 6000 yaers BP
Ob River region : about 5700 years BP

--ABCEditer (talk) 12:30, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

None of this stuff linking Liaoning to European combed ware is in the references given. The same quoted above says (Google translate) "In addition, there are similar earthenware in northeastern China and Korea, but the relationship with that in Siberia is not clear." Megalophias (talk) 16:39, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Joshua_Jonathan.[edit]

@Joshua Jonathan: Please explain your edits. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 06:24, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is sourced info, as explained in the edit-summary
This is not in the source, as explained in the edit-summary.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:55, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshua Jonathan: Where have you read that Serteya is Pit-Comb? --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 08:21, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Language[edit]

The paragraph was self-contradicting and confused. Hope it's better now. Hans J. Holm 2A02:8108:9640:AC3:C114:BC81:C99B:A1EB (talk) 07:28, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Genetics update[edit]

I updated the Y-hg nomenclature to the current one according to C. Quiles 2021, and ISOGG 2020.HJJHolm (talk) 15:29, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] 中国北方新石器文化研究の新展開【詳細報告】「東北アジアにおける先史文化の交流」王巍（中国社会科学院考古研究所・副所長）(in Japanese)

[2] Yinqiu Cui, Hongjie Li, Chao Ning, Ye Zhang, Lu Chen, Xin Zhao, Erika Hagelberg and Hui Zhou (2013）"Y Chromosome analysis of prehistoric human populations in the West Liao River Valley, Northeast China. " BMC 13:216

[3] 中国北方新石器文化研究の新展開【詳細報告】「東北アジアにおける先史文化の交流」王巍（中国社会科学院考古研究所・副所長）(in Japanese)

[4] Yinqiu Cui, Hongjie Li, Chao Ning, Ye Zhang, Lu Chen, Xin Zhao, Erika Hagelberg and Hui Zhou (2013）"Y Chromosome analysis of prehistoric human populations in the West Liao River Valley, Northeast China. " BMC 13:216

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