Talk:Communalism
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Municipalism etc.[edit]
@Czar: Hello. The reason why I'm persisting here is that we used to have a single page for the whole concept, which covered some of its instances as a variant of municipalism etc.; traces of these are still found in both the municipalism article and in Communalism (Bookchin). This allowed me to link "communalism" in two Romanian-themed articles Constantin Dobrescu-Argeș and Free and Independent Faction, both of which now pipe to municipalism because they can't pipe to either this page or to Bookchin's trademarked variant (not after the whole article structure was redesigned around his use, rather than around the vaguer concept which transcends him). The term "communalism", sometimes rendered as "communism" (both from "commune") has secondary but significant use as a by-word or quasi-synonym -- readers may encounter it under any of these designations, particularly in settings where Marxism is not the normative reference. As "Commune"+ism, it is certainly a widely used, and intuitive, translation of the French communalisme, which can also be rendered as "municipalism" or "municipal socialism". I really don't see why this is a controversy at all. Dahn (talk) 04:13, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Traces of the "communialism-as-communism" notion, which I suppose come about because communism can be etymologically linked to both "communal" and "commune", can still be found in literature that advocates for the model or rejects it. Dahn (talk) 04:22, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi @Dahn, my main concern is to say that "communalism refers to ... communism" etc. If that is so, then those pages should show a link that the term is commonly used as a synonym. If not, we would not list the term for disambiguation. To the question of how to link the broader concept, it's best to link as directly to the actual topic as possible, so if that's Bookchin, to link directly to the Communalism (Bookchin) redirect, or if it's the dictionary definition of communalism, to link directly to wikt:Communalism. The two Romanian-themed articles can link directly to this page but if you mean that they trip the dab fixer tool/bot, then the solution is to have them link to Communalism (disambiguation), with the disambiguation text, which tells the dab fixer that it's okay to link directly to the dab page and that it doesn't need to be further disambiguated. On a related but less directly relevant point, Wikipedia designates WP:MISES as an unreliable source, so we don't use it for reference. czar 04:57, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Czar: It would really help if you can make at least a note of the general point I'm making, which is specifically about how the term is being used. To begin with: I'm not arguing that we should use mises.org as a reference, nor am I adding it to any article; I am positioning out that the Rothbard book which is reproduced there in facsimile attests the usage of "communalism" for "communism", which should be non-controversial (especially since Kropotkin did the same at his far-left end). As I have also noted, "communalism" for "communism" is indeed rather obscure and antiquated, and would probably not appear in the article on communism -- but it won't do anybody any harm to have it included here, since somebody may in theory still stumble on that usage. "Communalism" for "municipal socialism" and "municipalism" is indeed a bit more widespread, and can perhaps be noted in either article -- though the implicit claim that it should my task to develop those articles, or to create a Wiktionary entry, for simply wanting this page to attest the usage, strikes me as uncollegial. After all, nobody asked me when this page was overhauled and the link was lost. (Also: as I have mentioned, I have already piped to municipalism in the two Romanian articles, because that is what the term means in those contexts, where it refers to peasant government directed by the communes of Romania.) Please, let's be reasonable here. Dahn (talk) 05:20, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- If it is significant enough that we would want to disambiguate it, then it should be sufficient enough to at least mention in the parent article. Then there would be no issue with mentioning here that it's an antiquated synonym. I don't think it's that clear cut, personally, hence why I'd like to see a reliable source that says so.
- As for whose responsibility that is to make that case, the burden of proof is on the editor adding the content. To ask for verification before adding content is the Wikipedia way, not some mark of antagonism so please do not read it as such. czar 05:29, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Let's not juggle about with words. The burden of proof for the use, and verification, has been provided here, it is in no way my responsibility to add the word in all the relevant articles; nor does anything in WP:BURDEN validate that approach. (Incidentally: which policy refers to the terms necessarily showing up in articles before disambiguation? It looks to me like you are introducing a personal preference in lieu of actual policy.) Dahn (talk) 08:56, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- WP:DABRELATED, as I had linked above. czar 12:19, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Also, per R. C. Cobb, quoted here, page 112: "Communalism" has been described as one of the most characteristic traits of the popular movement and, if it can be taken to mean a strong dose of anarchism, this is certainly true. But it could be put to other, more disguised, uses, and very often "communalism" is simply the rebirth of regionalism or municipalism, in a more respectable, apparently revolutionary, form. Must I go to all the relevant articles and add this particular reference, or others, for something that is ultimately a fact determined by common sense -- namely, that municipalities are sometimes "communes", and that municipalism is therefore sometimes "communalism"? Dahn (talk) 09:07, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not looking to debate the the "municipalism" connection on this talk page. I'm looking for you to add "communalism" on the two pages (municipalism and municipal socialism) you added to this dab page as needing disambiguation. czar 16:55, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- Let's not juggle about with words. The burden of proof for the use, and verification, has been provided here, it is in no way my responsibility to add the word in all the relevant articles; nor does anything in WP:BURDEN validate that approach. (Incidentally: which policy refers to the terms necessarily showing up in articles before disambiguation? It looks to me like you are introducing a personal preference in lieu of actual policy.) Dahn (talk) 08:56, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Czar: It would really help if you can make at least a note of the general point I'm making, which is specifically about how the term is being used. To begin with: I'm not arguing that we should use mises.org as a reference, nor am I adding it to any article; I am positioning out that the Rothbard book which is reproduced there in facsimile attests the usage of "communalism" for "communism", which should be non-controversial (especially since Kropotkin did the same at his far-left end). As I have also noted, "communalism" for "communism" is indeed rather obscure and antiquated, and would probably not appear in the article on communism -- but it won't do anybody any harm to have it included here, since somebody may in theory still stumble on that usage. "Communalism" for "municipal socialism" and "municipalism" is indeed a bit more widespread, and can perhaps be noted in either article -- though the implicit claim that it should my task to develop those articles, or to create a Wiktionary entry, for simply wanting this page to attest the usage, strikes me as uncollegial. After all, nobody asked me when this page was overhauled and the link was lost. (Also: as I have mentioned, I have already piped to municipalism in the two Romanian articles, because that is what the term means in those contexts, where it refers to peasant government directed by the communes of Romania.) Please, let's be reasonable here. Dahn (talk) 05:20, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi @Dahn, my main concern is to say that "communalism refers to ... communism" etc. If that is so, then those pages should show a link that the term is commonly used as a synonym. If not, we would not list the term for disambiguation. To the question of how to link the broader concept, it's best to link as directly to the actual topic as possible, so if that's Bookchin, to link directly to the Communalism (Bookchin) redirect, or if it's the dictionary definition of communalism, to link directly to wikt:Communalism. The two Romanian-themed articles can link directly to this page but if you mean that they trip the dab fixer tool/bot, then the solution is to have them link to Communalism (disambiguation), with the disambiguation text, which tells the dab fixer that it's okay to link directly to the dab page and that it doesn't need to be further disambiguated. On a related but less directly relevant point, Wikipedia designates WP:MISES as an unreliable source, so we don't use it for reference. czar 04:57, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Lacking the Meaning of Communalism[edit]
The prior organization of Communalism as its own page properly conveyed the meaning of Communalism and elaborated its distinction from various similar ideologies such as Bookchin's Communalism and Municipalisms. Currently however Communalism is left undescribed. Municipal Socialism is not synonymous with Communalism as Communalism can and really ought to be a sovereign commune rather than exclusively municipal communes which lack sovereignty as administrative subdivisions of a larger sovereign state. Communalism as defined in general is just the ideology of a commune with communal (common to its members) ownership of property. It would be worthwhile to recover the prior page's header to actually convey it's meaning rather than just the meaning of various subuses. Darkmagine (talk) 11:29, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- "Communalism" as a term refers to several unrelated ideas, hence this disambiguation page. See any of the linked articles to get a description and distinction for each. czar 13:48, 15 May 2022 (UTC)