Talk:Croatian Armed Forces (Independent State of Croatia)

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Structure of this article and the homeguard, air force and ustasha articles[edit]

The armed forces of the NDH were originally created with two parts, the army and the navy (as per the decree of 10 April 1941). The following day the Ustasha militia was created, and remained separate until 1942. Then the decree of 18 March 1942 organised all of the armed forces of the NDH into 1. the army, comprising the land army, the navy and the air force, 2. the gendarmerie, and 3. the Ustasha militia. In July and August 1942, this was again reorganised, and the Ustasha militia consisted of its previous units, Pavelic's personal guard, the railroad security trops, the gendarmerie, and some others elements. In December 1944, the army (as created on 18 March 1942, and therefore including the airforce and navy) and the Ustasha militia were consolidated into one force. This development is not at all clear in the corresponding articles, and I propose to start re-writing this article to be an overarching article about the development of the armed forces from 10 April 1941 including the above information. Currently the articles appear to suggest that there was a separate airforce and navy, which there were not, they were part of the army throughout their existence. Peacemaker67 (talk) 02:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, my view is that there should be two main articles, one with the title 'Army of the Independent State of Croatia', covering the army, navy and airforce until the unification of the armed forces (using Croatian Home Guard article) and the second one (tNhis one) with tIhe current title covering the post-unification period. There could then be offshoot articles for the navy and airforce off of the Army article. Peacemaker67 (talk) 10:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
One article should be titled 'Croatian Home Guard (Independent State of Croatia)', (the official name of the NDH army was Croatian Home Guard) and this one should be titled 'Croatian Armed Forces (Independent State of Croatia)', (Croatian Armed Forces was the official name of the NDH army from 1944 to 195). There should be also a separate article for the Ustashe Militia, which was independent until 1944 when it was merged with the Home Guard into the Croatian Armed Forces.--Calapone (talk) 11:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What is your source for this? The source I am using for the above is The chapter on the Croatian Armed Forces in Tomasevich Vol 2. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:43, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Calapone, with all due respect, you're not making much sense. -- Director (talk) 13:34, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Peacemaker, the crucial question is what was the name of the armed forces of the NDH? Was the term "Croatian Armed Forces" used before December 1944? But could you clarify your elaboration above Peacemaker? Lemme try to get this straight:
10 April 1941 - 18 March 1942

  • Croatian Armed Forces
    • Croatian Home Guard
    • Croatian Navy?
  • Ustase Militia (as a separate party army)

18 March 1942 - December 1944

  • Croatian Armed Forces
    • Croatian Home Guard
    • Ustase Militia
    • Gendermerie

December 1944 - May 1945

  • Croatian Armed Forces (a single military organization without branches?)

Am I getting that right? If I am, then what I would support (is this your idea as well?) is a "Croatian Armed Forces" article that includes sections on the Croatian Home Guard, the Gendermerie, and the Ustase Militia (with links to their main articles). In addition, I would have a "History" section that deals with the military activities of the Croatian Armed Forces, and that would include a "Organization" subsection for detailing organizational changes as you elaborated above (possibly even with a Wikitable).

On a related note, I have to say that here is no need for Croatian Home Guard to be a disambiguation article: there was the Royal Croatian Home Guard of the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, and the "Croatian Home Guard" of the NDH. We should simply have two articles: "Royal Croatian Home Guard" and "Croatian Home Guard". -- Director (talk) 13:18, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

well sort of. Without Tomasevich in front of me that looks right as far as it goes. Wasn't there a Home Guard after independence though? I just don't think Croatian Home Guard covers it, or reflects the sources. My view is if there was a decree calling it the Army, which there was according to Tomasevich, and others also refer to it as the Army, it is the Army of the NDH. Peacemaker67 (talk) 13:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The NDH was notorious for bureaucratic incompetence and over-complication :). Ok, so the first thing we need to get straight is whether the name of the over-arching military organization was "Croatian Armed Forces" throughout the war? If that is so, we should probably use "Croatian Armed Forces (Independent State of Croatia)", though I personally really like "Armed Forces of the Independent State of Croatia", as it is far more elegant.
In the meantime Peacemaker, you should probably not move-war, as move-warring quickly grabs the attention of admins (who will likely just protect the page and maybe even sanction you). The thing to do when your move was reverted is to post an RfM, but before that, I think its a good idea to have a preliminary discussion like this one that helps build consensus. -- Director (talk) 13:36, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the advice. Given that there was relevant recent discussion on the talk page, and the user involved did not produce any sources or policy, it would seem a little rich for any action to be taken against me over this, but regardless, I will leave it alone until I have my texts in front of me. Peacemaker67 (talk) 13:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah you would think that, wouldn't you? :D Thing is, admins by and large don't really care. As far as sources are concerned, you might be interested to learn that Tomasevich's Volume II, Occupation and Collaboration is actually available on line [1]. Its a preview, so some parts are not available, but I think a greater majority of the book is. -- Director (talk) 13:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The structure of the NDH armed forces was as follows.
10 April 1941 - December 1944
  • Croatian Home Guard
    • Ground Army
    • Croatian Navy
    • Croatian Air Force
  • Ustashe Militia
  • Gendermerie
December 1944 - May 1945
  • Croatian Armed Forces
    • Ground Army
    • Croatian Navy
    • Croatian Air Force
Source.--Calapone (talk) 14:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm yes that's basically what I thought up until now. The questions are therefore: was the term "Croatian Armed Forces" used before December 1944? What exactly happened with the decree of 18 March 1942? -- Director (talk) 14:46, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The term "Croatian Armed Forces" wasn't used before 1944. The Gendermerie was absorbed by the Ustashe Militia some time before 1944, and the Ustashe Militia and the Croatian Home Guard were unified in 1944 into Croatian Armed Forces.--Calapone (talk) 14:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Calapone, you really need an English-language source imo. A booklet, published in Croatia(!), cannot really be compared with scholarly professional publications such as those of Tomasevich. I recommend you both see what he has to say [2], I remember he goes into the matter in immense detail. -- Director (talk) 15:09, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A book with 193 pages is a booklet to you? And why are books from Croatia uncomparable with Tomasevich's work?--Calapone (talk) 15:16, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tomasevich is a far more reliable source, no question. He is probably the best source on WWII Yugoslavia, and is acclaimed as such by many peer reviews. He's also in English. That said, I am sure the sources are actually in agreement here. These sort of things are not usually debated. The organization of the NDH military is well known, I'm certain, and this is all just a misunderstanding. -- Director (talk) 15:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Referring to Croatian Home Guard being ambiguous - I think it's quite clear from the content there now that this term is ambiguous. The WWII version is certainly the most notorious, but it's not WP:PRIMARYTOPIC esp. because it lacks both seniority and tenure. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 23:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with Joy on the ambiguity, and appreciate the pointer to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. A simple search on Croatian Army in Tomasevich 2001 online produces 70+ page hits, Home Guard gets less than 10, most of which are Slovene Home Guard references, including the Domobranstvo mentions. I went back to WP:NAME and it does say the name used in reliable sources in English. Armed Forces is also well covered by Tomasevich, especially seeing as he quotes from Article 9 of the law decree creating the Army and Navy which advises the powers of the 'commander in chief of the armed forces'. It is clear from this that the armed forces existed from the date of the first decree, initially consisting of the Army and Navy. Tomasevich has used a lot of primary and secondary sources for this, he writes in the English language although he was fluent in Serbo-Croat, and doesn't use Home Guard. It just seems straightforward to me. Peacemaker67 (talk) 00:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Joy, I am aware of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC but my pointg is exactly that this is not the same topic. "Croatian Home Guard" is one thing, "Royal Croatian Home Guard" is another. If both of these organizations were called "Croatian Home Guard", we would need a disambiguation page, but since they are not, why have an unnecessary disambig article? And even if this were not the case, one could still convincingly argue that "Croatian Home Guard" primarily refers to the NDH military organization in the vast majority of references. Could you elaborate on your comment regarding seniority and tenure?
Well, the Royal Croatian Home Guard is called "Croatian Home Guard". If the reader finds a reference referring to the first half of the 20th century and using the term "Croatian Home Guard", when they look it up, do we want to immediately tell them that this term means NDH? I don't think we do because it's not founded in fact - by seniority I mean the KoCS entity preceded the NDH entity and was the origin of the NDH entity's name, and by tenure I refer to the simple fact that the NDH entity lasted around four years, while the KoCS entity existed for half a century. Plus, there was the modern-day version which translates to "Home Guard" but is no less "Croatian" in comparison, given such a generic prefix.
I could be convinced otherwise if someone provided a review of a wide range of relevant sources that would demonstrate a large majority of truly ambiguous references implying NDH. By truly ambiguous I mean any reliable source that casually references "Croatian Home Guard" or hrvatsko domobranstvo outside of specific context. When an article discussing NDH uses the term, it's not actually ambiguous. Such a reference can generally contribute to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC weight, but if there are a non-trivial amount of references doing the analogous thing with the other variants, there's no primary topic. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker, before we can venture into Google testing we must clear-up a few things. "Croatian Army" as used by Tomasevich may or may not refer to the "Croatian Home Guard" especially. As I recall from my reading, Tomasevich simply uses "Croatian Army" as an umbrella term for the NDH military in general. But regardless, you cannot seriously suggest that we rename the "Croatian Home Guard" article into "Croatian Army"? I have to say I have little doubt the Croatian Home Guard is in fact referred to as the "Croatian Home Guard" in the vast majority of sources.
I feel this whole thing ought to be clear as day and isn't because of some stupid misunderstanding. The terms "Croatian Army", "Croatian Home Guard", and "Croatian Armed Forces" are all becoming intertwined. Peacemaker can I ask you to please elaborate exactly what, according to Tomasevich, was the organizational structure of the military of the NDH through WWII? -- Director (talk) 00:41, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The armed forces of the NDH were originally created with two parts, the army and the navy (as per the decree of 10 April 1941). These were referred to as the armed forces, and Kvaternik was the commander in chief of the armed forces. The following day the Ustasha militia was created, and it remained separate until 1944. Then the decree of 18 March 1942 organised all of the armed forces of the NDH into 1. the Army comprising the land army, the navy and the air force, 2. the gendarmerie, and 3. the Ustasha militia. In July and August 1942, this was again reorganised, and the Ustasha militia absorbed Pavelic's personal guard, the railroad security trops, the gendarmerie, the state police, the Ustasha Surveillance Service, the Ustasha educational and prepatory establishments, and some other smaller elements. In December 1944, the Army (as created on 18 March 1942, and therefore including the airforce and navy) and the Ustasha militia were consolidated into one force. In March 1945, the Ustasha Defence Brigades and state labour service were absorbed into the armed forces. Essentially no reference to the Croatian Home Guard the Home Guard or anything like it in that chapter of T or in the book as far as I can see from the online version. I can't see how the claim can be advanced that the Home Guard is the name of the org, when one of the key reliable texts in English on the NDH doesn't use it at all... Peacemaker67 (talk) 08:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And what makes texts in English more reliable than texts in Croatian?--Calapone (talk) 09:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
WP:COMMONNAME and WP:POVTITLE for starters. Peacemaker67 (talk) 10:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We have to consider that Tomasevich seems to be a faulty source on this specific matter since he is not using the actual names of these military organizations but is rather simply referring to them as "the army" the "navy" and the "armed forces". There is no question whatsoever that the actual name of the regular military of the NDH (up to December 1944) was "Croatian Home Guard" ("Hrvatsko domobranstvo"). That I am certain of since, well, its basic knowledge all over ex-Yugoslavia plus you can find it in many sources [3]. I think its beyond doubt that the regular army was named "Croatian Home Guard" up until December 1944. It is simply unquestionable that the organization really was termed "Hrvatsko domobranstvo". Peacemaker, that is not an invented term.

I think we may now actually be able to "translate" Tomasevich's terminology into official names.

  • He uses "armed forces of the Independent State of Croatia", not to refer to any specific military organization, but as an umbrella term for the entire military of the NDH.
  • What he calls the "army" is more accurately termed the "Croatian Home Guard" (though I am not sure whether his use of the term "Croatian army" can sometimes include the Ustaše Militia).
  • The term "Croatian Armed Forces" refers solely to the post-December 1944 organization, and an organization by that name did not exist before.

I think if we apply that "key" we get this:

10 April 1941 - 18 March 1942

  • Croatian Home Guard
  • Croatian Navy
  • Ustaše Militia

18 March 1942 - December 1944

  • Croatian Home Guard
    • Land Army
    • Croatian Navy
    • Air Force of the Independent State of Croatia
  • Ustaše Militia
  • Croatian Gendarmerie

December 1944 - May 1945

  • Croatian Armed Forces
    • Land Army (not sure whether this was still actually a separate branch)
    • Croatian Navy
    • Air Force of the Independent State of Croatia

And I think this chimes with all the sources. The only remaining questions are 1) whether the "Land Army" was still actually a separate branch of the Croatian Armed Forces after December 1944, and 2) what happened to the Croatian Gendarmerie after December 1944? -- Director (talk) 10:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In June 1942 the Gendarmerie was absorbed by the Ustashe Militia, but from December 1944 it was part of the unified Croatian Armed Forces. And I think that the NDH armed forces structure presented by Direktor is currently the best.--Calapone (talk) 11:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The timeline and structure listed above seems to indicate another bit of ambiguity for the "Croatian Home Guard" article - it needs to refer both to the land army article and to the whole armed forces article, whose articles are separate. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:25, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, why would there be a commander in chief of the armed forces if there was no formal armed forces in 1941? Also, Tomasevich mentions a Ministry of the Army in 1941 and a Ministry of the Armed Forces in 1943. These sourced facts do not gel with the above construct. It is not as clear as some would like it to be. At the moment, the only sources being provided are Tomasevich and the Croatian text Calapone has mentioned. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you're not referring to me Peacemaker I'm just trying to make sense of all this :). You certainly make a valid point. Ok so now the questions that need answering are:
  1. Did the NDH have an over-arching military organization to which the Croatian Home Guard and other service branches belonged? If so what exactly was its formal official name? Was it "Armed Forces of the Independent State of Croatia" or "Croatian Armed Forces" or something else?
  2. Did the Croatian Armed Forces (the post-December 1944 organization) include a separate branch called the "Land Army" just like the Croatian Home Guard?
  3. The Croatian Gendarmerie was "absorbed" into the Ustaše Militia in June 1942? What does that mean? Did it cease to exist in June 1942, or was it a part of the Ustaše Militia henceforward (until December 1944)? And after December 1944, was it a separate branch of the "Croatian Armed Forces"?
  4. Was the "Air Force of the Independent State of Croatia" (ZNDH) formed at some point before 18 March 1942? And if so, was it formed as a branch of the Croatian Home Guard from the outset, or as a separate branch until it was included in the Home Guard on 18 March 1942?
-- Director (talk) 12:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Air Force of the Independent State of Croatia, the Zrakoplovstvo Nezavisne Države Hrvatske (ZNDH) was formed on 19 April 1941. Likso & Canak, Hrvatsko Ratno Zrakoplovstvo u Drugome Svjetskom Ratu (The Croatian Airforce in the Second World War). Zagreb, 1998. (p.7) tell us that "At the very start of forming the new country's (NDH) institutions, the establishment of the armed forces was initiated in all aspects, including the Air Force. 19 April 1941 can be regarded as the day of its formation. Colonel Vladimir Kren was appointed the Commander of the Department of the Air Force". Also, we find from Savic & Ciglic. Croatian Aces of World War II (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces - 49). Oxford, Osprey, 2002 (p. 14) that "The formation of of the Croatian Army was announced on 19 April, seven days after Slavko Kvaternik took command of 'all military powers of the Croatian State', while the newly promoted Pukovnik Vladimir Kren headed all air forces 'because of his special merits and long years of work for the Ustasa movement' ".Oz Cro (talk) 15:59, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Again, was the ZNDH formed as part of the Croatian Home Guard, or was it formed as a separate branch? We're reasonably certain it was included as part of the Croatian Home Guard with the military reforms of 18 March 1942, but was it a part of the Home Guard beforehand? Was it a part of the "Croatian Armed Forces" after December 1944? -- Director (talk) 18:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
we still lack reliable sources in English for the name Home Guard and don't even know which bit was the Home Guard (the Army as identified by Tomasevich, or the land army). I would point out that Milazzo also uses the term 'Army' when referring to the regular forces of the NDH, and not 'Home Guard'. I am beginning to think we need an overarching 'Military of the Independent State of Croatia' article like the 'Military of the United States' article that shows all the developments, but we can't progress any of this without a clear structure and the right nomenclature. For the record, the parts of the military that were 'absorbed' by the Ustasha appear from Tomasevich to have been just placed under the control of the Ustasha militia command and remained as operational sections of that branch. There are plenty of online sources of questionable reliability on this topic, such as axishistory, vojska and feldgrau, but I have yet to see a reliable source in English that has any where near as much detail on this as Tomasevich. Peacemaker67 (talk) 21:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll say again, we do not lack sources for "Croatian Home Guard", take your pick. Some sources simply do not refer to it by its official name. It is, in addition, common knowledge (locally) that the official name of the NDH regular army was "Hrvatsko domobranstvo", which translates as "Croatian Home Guard". Tomasevich isn't really making a mistake, he's just using other terms, presumably perceived as more English-friendly. This issue is enough of a mess without wasting more effort on that non-starter. Its something like disputing the "Independent State of Croatia" was actually called "Independent State of Croatia" because it is referred to as "Croatia" in this or that source, I don't know what else to add on that question.
In my opinion, we really can't start discussing article titles and the structure we are to use - without first getting to the bottom of some very basic issues like those I tried to list above. For example, was there actually an over-arching military organization that included the Croatian Home Guard and the Ustase? And if so what was its official name? If there actually was such an organization we could use its name for the totle of the article, for example. I myself am physically unable to do the research for the time being, but without more research we can't really go on and should not change anything. To put it in another way, we need to first have an accurate diagram we know is correct.
Personally, I think it is entirely possible that no over-arching military organization was created (until December 1944 that is). The fact that someone was "commander-in-chief of the armed forces", or there was a ministry entitled "Ministry of the Armed Forces", does not necessarily indicate that an actual military organization called "Armed Forces" or "Armed Forces of the Independent State of Croatia" existed, or that the term "Croatian Armed Forces" was used as a name of a military organization before December 1944. Such assumptions are very close to OR. It seems to me that both the NDH authorities and (perhaps subsequently) Tomasevich both simply use the term "armed forces" as an umbrella term for the military of the NDH - without there actually being an organization of that name (until of course an over-arching organization called "Croatian Armed Forces" was actually created in December 1944). -- Director (talk) 21:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Can I just say the Google search you have linked is next to useless as far as identifying reliable sources that use the term Home Guard - it includes self-references to WP and Redzic, who was a Partisan. And the local knowledge stuff is ridiculous. Individual editors don't get to decide what we have to take judicial notice of and what we can't. This is supposed to be a policy based decision. However, one of the hits at http://books.google.com.au/books?id=NSjRbIz4iDkC&pg=PA12&dq=%22Croatian+Home+Guard%22+-wikipedia+-LLC&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vfIVT5yMFsSpiAfq2PVC&sqi=2&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22Croatian%20Home%20Guard%22%20-wikipedia%20-LLC&f=false is a Historical dictionary of Croatia by Robert Stallaert, which appears reliable. It supports the idea that the Home Guard was the overarching organisation and included the Army, Navy and Air Force. That leaves the issue of what the Army was called. However, I believe that to show the overall development of both the Home Guard and the rest of the armed forces, not just the Ustasha militia but also all the smaller organisations, we will need a Military of the Independent State of Croatia article. Peacemaker67 (talk) 22:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thomas' 'Axis Forces in Yugoslavia' says that on 16 April 1941, the Hrvatsko Domobranstvo was created, but refers to it as the 'Croatian Home Defence Force'. It also states that it consisted of the Army (kopnena vojska)', Navy and Air Force, plus the National Guard, Gendarmerie and Labour Service. It also says that it was renamed the Croatian Armed Forces (oruzane snage NDH) in January 1943, and that it then incorporated the Ustasha Army. It also says that the Army's name was changed in January 1943 to the Domobranstvo. That was all I could get from the online version, but it clarifies a few things at least. Peacemaker67 (talk) 11:58, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The army was called "Hrvatsko Domobranstvo", no question. "Hrvatsko" simply means "Croatian". "Domobranstvo" is a composite noun consisting of "dom", which means "home" (if you recall the "homeland"/"fatherland" debate) and "branstvo" which is a noun derived from the verb "braniti" meaning "to defend". So "Hrvatsko Domobranstvo" is something like "Croatian Homedefence" literally translated. "Croatian Home Defence Force" is a more literal translation, whereas "Croatian Home Guard" better conveys the actual meaning and is more "English-friendly". I'm fairly certain its used far more commonly.
    • *facepalm* I don't see what's been clarified.. frankly I'm more confused than ever now :D. If that is what that source says than someone must be wrong here. I think I'm going to have to withdraw since, as I said, I don't know what to think because I cannot do the research. What I am sure about is that the regular army was certainly named "Hrvatsko Domobranstvo" (and that the best (most common) translation for that is "Croatian Home Guard"), and that at some point late in the war the Croatian Home Guard and Ustase Militia were fused into the "Hrvatske Oruzane Snage" (HOS) which translates very straightforwardly into "Croatian Armed Forces". As for the latter I personally seriously doubt that the merge was done in Januray 1943, rather than December 1944. -- Director (talk) 13:11, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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