Talk:Cross Road Blues/Archive 1

Referring

Hey wait a sec. No one knows if thats what he was refering too. He really might have just wanted a ride when he said I wanted to flag a ride, because it would be common for a blues man to flag a ride in thoose days

Potential merge with Crossroad Blues article

According to AMG website, the correct songtitle is "Cross Road Blues" - suggest we merge the two articles under this heading. Anyone disagree ?

Derek R Bullamore 16:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

AGREE with merger. But you have to clean up the folklore scholarship. See below. Pustelnik (talk) 00:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Use of N-Word

See WP:Profanity for details. To maintain historical accuracy in quotes and expression, censorship should not be used. Mipchunk 21:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I've reinstated this again, after a good faith edit replaced it with underscores. Jonobennett (talk) 13:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Meaning is not clear cut; alternate explanation

I have a problem with the way this article is written, because the author writes as if his or her assertation about the song is undisputable. Unless some1 interviewed Johnson and HE said the song is about someone just trying to hitch a ride rather than be caught outside in the deep south after dark, then there is nothing "plain" in its explanation. The assumptions seem rather POV. I'm not gonna make any rewrites just yet. i don't have any source material to back up anything.

However, I'd like to point out there appears to be (in my opinion this time, lol) a strong spiritual element to this song. Upon listening more, I think its possible the song's protagonist (Robert Johnson) is suggesting he's a ghost trying to get to heaven and escape from hell. My reasons for this are as follows...

• The Crossroads could definately be a meeting place between land of the living and land of the dead, this concept would have been known to Johnson and many blacks in the deep south
• Po' Bob appeals first to God to save him. This could be an appeal to "open heaven's gates" for a wandering spirit. I know this idea may seem like a stretch on the surface, but the rest of the song lends some credence to it.

• When Po' Bob says no one seems to "know me", this could really mean "saw me". The only reason they would not physically see him is if he was a ghost. Now if our Po' Bob expect someone to know him, as in be familiar with him, he's probably in a familar area. And if he's in a familiar area, it doesn't make sense that no one in the town would pick him up unless they truly could not see him. The time of day in the song is clearly dusk, so the only reason they couldn't see him is if he was a ghost.

• The Willie Brown reference seems to be a dead ringer for me. In the 4th stanza of the song, Po' bob says "you can run, tell my friend Willie Brown". Now if someone could physically run and tell his friend where he's at, couldn't Po' Bob just run himself and get out of the dark before sunset and the KKK showed up. Last line of that stanza says "I got the crossroad blues this mornin', Lord, baby I'm sinkin' down". I could be flat wrong. But I think he's saying he got killed that morning and is afraid he's going to hell (hence, sinkin down). Po' Bob has been at the crossroads (a physical destination or death) since morning and now its dusk. What would any logical person be doing waiting at a crossroads for that long when he could go run to his friend Willie Brown (presumably in less time than it took the sun to go down at or during dusk)? It just doesn't make any sense. And this is the second time (1st was in stanza 3) that Po' Bob mentions "sinkin' down".

i've got no clue on the meaning of the last stanza, but it doesn't negate anything in the previous ones. In short, it looks like Bob is spirit in limbo (at the crossroads between lands of the living and dead) and is appealing to God to let him into heaven. Unless he gets there, he's gonna "sink" below which is probably hell. Holla back and let me know if you think i'm onto something. I'll check JSTOR in the meantime and see what articles exist on Robert Johnson and this song.Scott Free 17:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Litwack didn't know the folklore. Look at the article on Papa Legba, then tell me what Robert Johnson was doing at the crossroads. This was also referrenced in O Brother, Where Art Thou? when they ask the Black musician "What were you doing at that crossroads at midnight, anyway?" See also Crossroads (culture) Pustelnik (talk) 00:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I've edited the wordings a tad to maintain neutrality on the subject. The previous wordings were very strong in their assertion that the Johnson was in fact talking about the racism that persisted while also overly labelling the other notion as a 'legend'. --BlueStream (talk) 11:25, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Legend and Interpretation - cleanup needed.

First of all, the section on "Legend and Interpretation" covers the same material twice, not bad for such a short article! The first and last paragraph speak of very closely related interpretations: "the common fear felt by blacks who were discovered out alone after dark" and "worried about being lynched for being out after dark".

Second, the section contains multiple "weasel words":

...many believe the song itself plainly describes... ...Many believe the song is about the original songwriter... ...Some historians believe the song is actually about...

The last section in particular needs cleanip and referencing for an encyclopedic article.80.202.215.74 (talk) 02:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Including cover acts in artist list

All bands in the cover list except for one are original artists. There is no need to include tribute acts in this list as they are a given. I have removed the solitary "odd one out", however it has been re inserted by a very protective WP:OWNer. Bluescreenofdef (talk) 04:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Please don't show your ignorance of music in general. The song was originally written and performed by Robert Johnson. This means that every other band who performs this song is performing it as a cover version. The ONLY "original artist" of this song is Robert Johnson. --WebHamster 21:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

The Hamsters are a cover act that play over peoples songs professionally in a way that makes them a living 3D jukebox. Not that there is anything wrong with that, there are many thousands of bands like this making people happy around the world. However every other name in this list is a signed major label original artist who has re interpreted the song as a means of artistic expression. This article would be extremely long if we included every bar band that has covered this song. Let's keep it interpretations that have been widely distributed and commented upon. Bluescreenofdef (talk) 03:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

All of which is totally irrelevant in Wikipedia terms... your dislike of a band you've never heard, the fact you think they're a cover band (they're not) and what you think is music expression. I rather doubt you've ever heard The Hamsters' version of Crossroads so are in no position to gauge what is or what isn't the result of a "3D jukebox". The list in this article only states one criteria, that they be notable. Whether you like it or not they are notable, both in wikipedia terms and in musical terms. The only thing that can be supposed from your specious and disruptive arguments is that you have a personal agenda this in turn makes your comments NPOV. --WebHamster 10:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right. Of course I've never heard The Hamsters version of this song, NO ONE has. No one has ever mentioned anything about about it anywhere ever. Itunes, Nope. Rolling Stone, Nup, NME ,Not a thing, Anyone? Anyone? Despite what you claim I don't dislike this, I can't, I've never heard them, no one has, or at least no one has heard them and commented about it. Bluescreenofdef (talk) 04:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah, so what you are saying is you discount it because of your all encompassing musical knowledge and lifetime's collection of musical literature? So you also think your WP:IDONTLIKEIT philosophy is reason enough? Sorry, I don't know how to break this to you but your musical knowledge is demonstrably inadequate to actually have an opinion that is worth listening to. So far you have not given any good reason to delete this entry, there is certainly no consensus to remove it so I'm afraid you're going to have to back down and allow me to revert this article back to the way it was before you started your childish attempts to remove all reference of a band you know nothing about other than the fact the drummer had your name first. --WebHamster 14:00, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I think Tracy Chapman has made a cover of this song, can she be listed on the Covers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.0.34.4 (talk) 10:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Separate Cream Article?

I know it's only a cover version, but the version Cream performed is probably the most well-known and is entirely different from the original and even has a different title. Would it be too much to ask for a separate article?Mwakin21 (talk) 19:46, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Eric Clapton's rehab center in Aruba is indeed called 'Crossroads`. This is a fact. I`m not sure why citations are needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.136.196 (talk) 03:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

When there are quotes from critics, you can`t call them `unreliable resources,` because they are opinions. `Unreliable resource` tags should only be used for things that are stated as facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.136.196 (talk) 03:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of, can we delete Derek and the Dominos from other artists who have covered Crossroads? It can hardly be considered a different artist if that artist is just Eric Clapton sans Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker + a new backing band. --Jason Haft —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.77.4.82 (talk) 06:21, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Other cover versions

Changed "...range from:" to "...include:" (grammatical logic; there is no "to...") ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 23:23, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit at end of solo

An earlier contribution gave an explanation, but did not include any reliable sources.

• 1) "All versions of Crossroads from that tour have the same solo format: two choruses for the first solo and three for the second solo" (original recesearch?) does not prove that they didn't change it for one night – Cream was known for improvisation and their live version sometimes show considerable variation.
• 2) "A call to Polydor producer Bill Levenson ... had him recollect of the fabled Crossroads edit, but found no such edit on the original tape" is one man's opinion and could be explained in different ways. It is not that unusual for enigneers and producers to believe that they had been working with the originals for years for compilations, etc., when in fact in was later discovered they were using copies (Hendrix for one).

Alternative explanations may be provided only if they are supported by inline citations to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). —Ojorojo (talk) 15:48, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Cross Road Blues/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Beatleswhobeachboys (talk · contribs) 20:02, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi! I've been getting into Cream lately, so I figured I'd give this one a shot.

Great, I'll check off your points as I go. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:23, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

   Very nice flow: easy to read, good grammar, etc.

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Has an appropriate reference section:

   Plenty of sources

   B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

   Wonderful citation: leaves no questionable section unsourced.

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   Covers original Johnson version, Elmore James versions, Clapton versions; BUT legacy section is lacking somewhat in comparison

If you mean additional versions/covers, they don't appear to meet WP:SONGCOVER.

1. B. Focused:

2. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

3. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

4. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   Yes

5. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   After the smaller issues below are fixed, I believe it is ready to pass.

Comments (only small concerns though)

• If its possible, a chronology for the original Johnson version would be handy. If info isn't available though, no problem.

Added, although I've begun to see these extra navigational aids (album tracks, singles released, multiple chronologies, etc.,) as visual clutter. (MOS:INFOBOX says "The less information it [an infobox] contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance... exclude any unnecessary content.")

Although it does take up space, the single navigation have, to me at least, been very helpful in going from single to single. Thanks for adding it.

• An infobox for one of the James versions would be nice: clearer way to see recording date, release date, etc.

I think adding a James infobox so close to Cream's would bunch up the infographics too much (same problem with Little Red Rooster, but for Train Kept A-Rollin' it was OK). I'd add photo, but can't find a reliably PD one (same for Johnson). Maybe add an image similar to that at Slide guitar to the top left of the "Composition" section? —Ojorojo (talk) 16:23, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

If the infoboxes are too cluttered, adding a pic of a slide guitar probably wouldn't be much less difficult to fit in. I would leave it alone then. Beatleswhobeachboys (talk) 21:51, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

OK. —Ojorojo (talk) 00:42, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• I would add a few sentence overview of Clapton's history with the song to the top of his section.

I've tried a couple of different approaches, but don't think it adds much. Maybe I'll come up with something later, but for now left it as is. —Ojorojo (talk) 00:42, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Alright.

• In the legacy section, some comments from RS or NME (aside from rankings) or something like that would help display the song's importance: allmusic is easy to reach, but less notable an establishment.

Couldn't find anything in NME and RS doesn't add anything. Do you have something in mind? AllMusic adds "Among the best, best known, and most influential recordings of the 20th century, there’s little to be said of Cream’s version of the Robert Johnson classic ”Crossroads” that isn’t laudatory." The sources I used don't discuss the song in this way. Of course, there are dozens of covers that aren't individually notable (see problems with WP:SONGCOVER at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs#WP:SONGCOVER changes). —Ojorojo (talk) 00:42, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

OK; didn't really have one specific article in mind or anything, but if allmusic is the only source that works, then there's no problem.

I'll keep an eye out for suitable material. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:19, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Very good article, will pass once these small problems are attended to. Beatleswhobeachboys (talk) 20:02, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ojorojo The other two issues that I noted aren't as important, so if they are hard to locate or screws up the flow then they won't really affect the GA rating. Beatleswhobeachboys (talk) 21:51, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts! Ready to pass. Beatleswhobeachboys (talk) 14:36, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

That went well, Beatleswhobeachboys. Thanks for your interest and review. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:19, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your cooperation. Congrats on the GA! Beatleswhobeachboys (talk) 16:29, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Overall:

Pass or Fail:

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.