Talk:Crystal ball

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Reference[edit]

I added a book as a basic reference, since there were none. Sorry if I did not format correctly. I am new here. 216.160.71.14 (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I moved the LARGER definition of scrying to the topic "Scrying" Brina700 05:14, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There needs to be a reference that states crystal balls do not do anything.

Well said. Regarding the origin of this superstition, the Vikings supposedly used a crystal of calcium carbonate to find the location of the sun on cloudy days. See Iceland_spar. This might have seemed like magic to some people. Also the article on scrying has a section of "Modern day traditions and fictions," and perhaps this should be expressly noted in this article. Something like: "For more information on this method of fortune-telling in modern life and fiction see the article on scrying." 173.174.85.204 (talk) 00:54, 7 July 2017 (UTC) Eric[reply]

In Burke, Peter, Popular Culture in Early Modern Europe (Cambridge University Press et al., 1978, 1994, 1996; ISBN 1-85928-102-8), there's a statement that the "scrying" and fortune-telling of the early modern period was done primarily in a bowl of water -- the crystal ball was a later invention, more 19th-century than 16th. (You'll have to excuse my not having the page number -- the book's index is terrible.)

And it certainly wasn't Druidic: "'[The druid Dalan] made three wands of yew, and upon the wands he wrote an ogham; and by the keys of wisdom that he had, and by the ogham, it was revealed to him that Etain was in the fairy mound of Bri-Leith, ad that Midir had borne her thither.'" (Rolleston, T.W., Celtic Myths and Legends. New York: Dover Publications, Inc., 1990; originally Myths and Legends of the Celtic Race, London: George G. Harrap & Company, revised ed., 1917; ISBN 0-486-26507-2.)

It might be useful to mention some link to divination in general here, too, and references to other methods -- casting of sand (the preferred method of Middle Eastern magicians, I think), examining the entrails of sacrificed animals, the Chinese "oracle bones," and so on. The article as it stands is rather decidedly unhistorical.

Well, apologies for drowning everyone in interminable book citations... :)

Also, marked this article as a stub. Is it me, or is the reference on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CRYSTAL#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball mostly a joke? :) ExOttoyuhr 06:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tracing crystal balls back to the Bronze Age? Not sure how you'd justify that statement, let alone going further back in time. Evidence for connections between Bronze Age ritual and earlier prehistoric ritual is very limited. (Kammer06 (talk) 14:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Talk Page Vandal[edit]

I reverted some vandalism on your talk page. It's possibly related to this. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Crystal ball with Crystal gazing[edit]

I see no merit whatever in having two redundant articles on such closely related topics, whether concerned with scrying or not. I also would support merging both of the articles with Scrying, and reducing them to redirects. In fact, if nothing is done about it fairly soon, I'll do it myself. Since I have no respect for such fields beyond the fringe, anyone who disagrees had better forestall my action. Fair warning, I think? JonRichfield (talk) 15:53, 9 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Typo[edit]

Towards the end of the section about famous crystal balls the sentence "In 1831, they were stolen from the royal library in France were they were being stolen" appears. I assume that the intended sentence was "In 1831, they were stolen from the royal library in France where they were being stored", but I don't want to change it without confirmation that that's what it should say

Pliny's nonexistent quotation[edit]

The quoted passage from Pliny is not actually from Pliny and has nothing to do with crystal balls or scrying. First of all, the quoted passage is not in Pliny's text at all, but in a footnote by the modern editor of the work, and is taken from the liber de Lapidibus, a medieval work on gemstones written by Marbodius of Rennes. And even this passage from Marbodius has nothing to do with crystal balls; it says: "pars negat, et multis perhibent in partibus orbis crystallum nasci, qua non vis frigoris ulla est" wich means "a part [of them] denies this, and they maintain that in many parts of the world (multis in partibus orbis) a crystal (crystallum) is born, in wich the power of cold has no part" (the passage is about the ancient and medieval misconception that crystals are made of ice). As for the (nonsensical) phrase "orbis crystallum", it doesn't even mean "crystal ball"; the words "orbis" (of the world) and "crystallum" (a crystal) are actually part of different syntagms, and in any case an isolated phrase "crystallum orbis" would mean nothing. In latin "crystal ball" is "crystallina pila" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.49.180.12 (talk • contribs)

Removed from article:

In the first century CE, Pliny the Elder describes use of crystal balls by soothsayers ("crystallum orbis").^[1]

--Srleffler (talk) 22:02, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Pliny the Elder (1831). Caii Plinii Secundi Historiæ naturalis libri xxxvii, cum selectis comm. J. Harduini ac recentiorum interpretum novisque adnotationibus (in Latin). p. 579. Retrieved 7 November 2015.

I also suspect that the statement "By the fifth century CE, scrying using crystal balls was widespread within the Roman Empire and was condemned by the early medieval Christian Church as heretical." rests on a misinterpretation of its source. The cited article from the Encyclopedia Britannica only says that scrying (defined as "Divination based on an analysis of reflections in water, on polished metal, or on precious stones") was common in the fifth century, but it says nothing about scrying with crystal balls specifically. This is also confirmed by other books on the topic (like Besterman's Crystal Gazing; here's a link: https://books.google.it/booksid=gjmh2lUei1gC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Scrying%20in%20ancient%20rome&f=false) list many forms of scrying in late antiquity, but make no mention of crystal balls for this period. So I think the statement should be removed. 151.49.180.12 (talk) 17:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Brittanica reference does support the statement. The cited article is "crystal gazing". It defines "crystal gazing" as "divination of distant or future events based on visions seen in a ball of rock crystal." The article defines scrying as a synonym for crystal gazing. The sentence about divination based on reflections from various things appears to be providing a brief history of divination in general. The article returns to the topic of scrying with the statement: "Scrying became widespread by the 5th century AD and was condemned by the medieval Christian church as the work of the devil."

I read the Brittanica reference as directly supporting the statement in this article.--Srleffler (talk) 19:11, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Split[edit]

I am proposing to split this article into Crystal ball and Ball lens. These are not really the same thing, and right now this article covers both topics. I propose that the first article focus on the scrying/fortunetelling device, while the second focus on the optical device. Photographer's lensballs would then fall into the latter article. --Srleffler (talk) 23:12, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing no objection...--Srleffler (talk) 20:12, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[Pliny-1] Pliny the Elder (1831). Caii Plinii Secundi Historiæ naturalis libri xxxvii, cum selectis comm. J. Harduini ac recentiorum interpretum novisque adnotationibus (in Latin). p. 579. Retrieved 7 November 2015.

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