Talk:D-Generation X/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

D-Generation X song

anyone knows what it's called, and who sings it? 80.178.221.17 15:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Even though this isn't a forum, I'll be nice and tell you. Its called "Break It Down" by the DX band. -- Mikedk9109 (talk) 21:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

And you have to be careful not to confuse them with Rage Against the Machine...they sound pretty close to them..when I first heard the song years ago, I swore it was them..lol --Mikecraig 21:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, same here. -- Mikedk9109 (talk) 21:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Rage did do a version of it for them tho and it's on one of there albums!! --Shaunkelly101 22:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

After a little research, I found him. He has his own wikipedia article - Chris Warren. MFuture 19:22, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Should we mention this?

Michaels was the original leader of the group and acted as the guiding entity of the stable untill his hiatus after wrestlemania 14. Furthermore, triple h was essentially nothing more then a side-kick. There needs to be a greater clarity in the change of roles of the founding members Shawn Michaels and HHH. HBK was the founding father, with HHH as his lacky, whereas in contemporary times they are peers. The disparity between these two circumstances must be acknowledged. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.187.149.176 (talk) 15:56:28, August 19, 2007 (UTC) Road dog and Jeff Jarrett went outside kayfabe and called HHH and HBK by their real names. (also my dream of a complete DX reunion was crushed). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.68.211.16 (talk) 02:47, 17 November, 2006 (UTC)

What they did on iMPACT! this week I think was worth mentioning but I'm not quite sure how we can incorporate that into the article. --Aaru Bui ^DII 01:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I added it in. -- Mikedk9109 (talk) 18:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

and I removed it. it's got little bearing on DX unless they react to it, I don't think it's worth giving notice to since it's simply a desperate attempt by TNA to latch on to DX's current success and doesn't really affect them in any way. --Shaunkelly101 22:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You don't know if their going to respond to it, so until they do/don't, leave it in. -- Mikedk9109 (talk) 00:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

No your right I don't so until it actually affects them it should be left out. I'm saying this in reference to your previous opinions on the crotch chop topic. VKM are seperate, just because they refer to DX doesn't mean the effect them!--Shaunkelly101 00:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The VKM incident from last week should be mentioned in this article because they were both key members in DX. I'm not saying a separate section but maybe a brief mention of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.59.20 (talk • contribs) 04:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to say leave it out until it becomes notable. Unless DX responds, or VKM actually does something to carry out their "threats", it really isn't notable. -- T H L^CCD 23:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Well VKM showed up at a WWE house show in Connecticut and forced the crowd near them into a TNA chant. I think that is enough to mention something in this article.

Was DX at the house show? -- T H L R^CCD 04:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and DX acknowledged them in the crowd. -- Mikedk9109 (hit me up) 20:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we should mention it then. I'm not sure what context, if that's the right word, we should use to do so, however. It might be best to wait until the next impact to see how TNA portrays this before we do anything. Adding current events is fine, but sometimes it helps to wait and see exactly how to portray the event. -- T H L R^CCD 22:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

TNA didn't even mention it! I'm shocked. Go ahead and add it however you want, just don't assume anything. Cheers, -- T H L R 22:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Should We Add Them?

Should we add CM Punk, and The Hardyz in the peripheral member space, being as they teamed with them for one night, on a team called Team DX. Mannytime 01:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

No because it was just one night. DXRAW

Even multiple times wouldn't make much of a difference. --Aaru Bui ^DII 09:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please add the logo's that DX has used in the past and their current one to this page.Big Boss 0 17:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

i cant see why not, Kane in August is downa as a member, why not Punk and The Hardys?

Because they were teaming with DX under different circumstances then Kane. -- T H L 22:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Should the rumour about X-Pac coming back be added?

It's already added on his wiki so I was wondering if his appearance and interest to come back to RAW should be put into the DX category. I think we all know DX is hurting with one member and this could be big. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Watchmedie85 (talk • contribs) 04:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

No, it shouldn't be added. It is nothing but rumor and speculation, which is inherently unencyclopedic. -- The Hyb rid 05:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I have it on good sources (yeah yeah, I'm sure you belive me. But I'm serious) that X-Pac will NEVER come back to WWE. The company, IRL, considers him way to wild. He is unofficaly banned from their promotion. I have heard a rumor that WWE has tossed around ideas of bringing back everyone BUT him, however. The only No they got back at the time was from Billy Gunn, which might also keep Road Dogg from coming back. This may have made them scrap the deal, I havn't heard anything else about it since. Lich- 10/07/2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.54.163.161 (talk) 02:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Is John Cena going to join D-X?

Now that Cena is Tag champ with HBK should he be included in dx since michals can no longer challenge cena at wrestle mania? westhoff 85 8:25 1/30/2007

Possibly he will, however don't add anything to the article saying Cean is a member of DX yet. Yes, there are rumors that Cena will be officially joining DX in the storyline somewhere very soon. However, as of yet, these are just rumors and can not be confirmed until he does, if he does.

Title History

There should be a title history section on this page because DX has a high level of titles compared to oter stables ever in WWE. Don't u think they deserve a title section!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.108.229.13 (talk) 09:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

I agree!! The NWO should have one too. The NWO and DX are the most important factions in the history of Sports Entertainment...ever!! If other factions have title histories, then these two definitely should. However, do you know how much research you would have to do, in order to compile this?? HAHAHAHA!!!--Prince Patrick 15:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

It'd be fairly easy to do for DX just a matter of matching up times. The trouble is with nWo, that would be fairly convoluted (as per WCW storylines at the time). And if nWo and DX had title sections then what about the Four Horsemen? It could get quite out of hand. I'd be interested to see what other people think. Suriel1981 17:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh man. You're right. DX would be fairly easy. There’s actually a page with this information, but it’s the complete title history of each of the members, and not just when the member was apart of the faction. http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/dxhist.htm. Now I know this is not "official", but we could use this as a guide to the "Actual" DX Title history. There is also one for the NWO. http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wcw/nwohist.htm. What do you think??--Prince Patrick 17:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't X-pac's tag team title reigns with Kane be included? I know DX was then a shell of its former self but it was still in existence and X-Pac was still a member. TheUnknown285 21:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Cena Peripheral Member

he should be included in the Peripheral members, from the date he and hbk won the titles to the day he looses the titles, just seems to make sense since hes going to have to tag with hbk, a dx member, for a while he will be a Peripheral Member Overlordneo 07:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a very awkward situation, as he will also be feuding with HBK. I say we wait just a little longer. Cheers, -- The Hyb rid 07:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Cena is not a member, and neither is Flair. I don't know why this on user keeps putting them back in. TJ Spyke 05:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

And I don't know why this user keeps removing them. Oh well. I have better things to do than argue when I'm right, so go ahead, remove them again or whatever. I'll be back tomorrow. Drake Clawfang 05:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Cena and Flair

Let's settle this. Should they be listed? Both hav only teamed up with DX a couple of times and were never even close to being members. The most I would consider them is allies of DX. TJ Spyke 06:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

There's no difference really. And them saying "He's a member of DX" does not just make them automatic inclusions and vise-versa. They said Tyson was one of them, and he refed one match for them. Cena and Flair have done a lot for DX than Tyson or Kane or a lot of the members. Plus, with the way the storyline is heading, Cena's liable to join officially anyways, the rumors of such aside. Drake Clawfang 06:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, so don't assume anything. What has Flair done for DX? He came out to help them ONCE. Kane teamed with X-Pac for several months (winning the tag belts in the process) and even changed from red to green and was as close to being a member as you can be without actually joining. Tyson was also a major part of the DX storyline for a couple of months (making national headlines). Cena has teamed up a couple of times, and their winning the belts (which will be temporary) is no more notable than Batista and Mysterio or any other temporary team WWE has done before. Allies ≠ Peripheral members. TJ Spyke 06:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

You complain about me using a crystal ball, then claim Cena and Michael's reign will not be notable and is temporary? As for Flair, he's teamed with them several times, they've said they consider him a personal friend, and took out the Spirit Squad for him. Drake Clawfang 06:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

6 man tag matches with faces and heels teaming up from completely unrelated angles is common place. That is why Flair doesn't qualify, and part of the reason Cena doesn't. As for Cena and Michaels as a team, crystal balls aside, they are currently feuding, and are not on the same page. To quote HBK, "Cena is a good partner, but he's no Triple H." As of right now, Cena isn't a peripheral member. Peace, -- The Hyb rid 06:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not just the six-man match, Cena has also successfully defended his title against Edge with help from DX twice in 2006. That also counts for something. And since it seems 'Taker has challenged Cena, until Monday we don't know the state of the feud. I say we wait until Monday, and if Cena and Michaels are still feuding then, then yes, I'll agree he should be taken off. As for Flair, I still think he should stay. As mentioned, DX took out the Spirit Squad for him and said outright they consider him a close friend. Drake Clawfang 06:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Which would make Flair an ally. DX also considered Earl Hebner a close friend, but he wouldn't be considered a member. RAW ended with HBK about to superkick Cena and they looked like they were about to come to blows on SmackDown, they are still very much feuding and not on the same page. It's like when Michaels and Austin won the titles when they were feuding. Allies and friends (especially temporary ones) are not the same as being members (or peripheral members). TJ Spyke 06:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Would you care to explain what you believe the difference is between peripheral members and allies? Drake Clawfang 06:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

They saved his title to piss off Edge, not help Cena. Also, they didn't take out the SS for Flair; they did it because they were, "Sick and tired of kicking their asses." Also, you've already been reported for 3RR, so I suggest you stop adding it to the article, as I'm a fresh man. We can finish sorting this out until and after your block expires, but let's stop destroying the page history. Peace, -- The Hyb rid 06:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I know about the 3RR report, that's why I'm not rving it again. As for Edge, really, their motives are up for interpretation one way or the other. And, as another note on Cena, don't forget he once did the DX crotchchops with them when they teams up. Drake Clawfang 06:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The crotch chops were, IMO, to get a cheap crowd pop. Anyway, since all of this is up for interpretation, adding it to the article is original research. -- The Hyb rid 06:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

That's true, a greal deal of the peripheral members are OR. Should we perhaps remove all of them (being serious, not sarcastic). Drake Clawfang 07:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Other than Neidhart they really aren't disputable. What they did obviously put them close to being members without being official. -- The Hyb rid 07:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree about Neidhart. All they did was pretend he was a member so they could attack him right afterwards. TJ Spyke 07:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I took him out. -- The Hyb rid 07:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Any good reason Cena and Flair should be kept in? It's clear Cena isn't even close to being a member, and Flair is an ally at best. If their are no objections, I will remove them tomorrow. TJ Spyke 05:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Falir recently has been wearing DX shirts here recently and Cena is half of the World Tag Team Champions with Shawn Michaels. They are both potential members of DX for these reasons and it is possible that they will become full time members. Big Boss 0 00:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Cena does crotch-chops is a poor reason for inclusion. In my younger, less mature years I used to do occasionally do crotch chops when drunk, either at policemen or chicks that annoyed me. That didn't make me a member of DX, it just made me look like a wanker.

Seriously though, Flair and Cena should not be on the list. Suriel1981 08:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Does anybody object to remoing them? I will wait a day or so, and if nobody objects then I will remove them. TJ Spyke 06:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I feel that Flair and Cena both deserve to stay. Cena has been aided numerous times by DX with retaining his WWE Championship and Flair has teamed with HBK and HHH during tours where one member was absent and more recently helped defeat the spirit squad. Big Boss 0 15:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Really, it's all up to interpretation and personal opinion. Wikipedia is not a democracy, and original research is not allowed, which is what the entire peripheral members section is. I'm removing it again. Drake Clawfang 16:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. They should not be included. They were not official members.--Prince Patrick 14:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Same here. If they started a complete association with DX, like wearing the merch, and entering with them and doing DX stuff, then they would warrant adding. Killswitch Engage 05:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Flair wrestled a house show in the Summer of 2006 where Triple H introduced him as "temporary member" of DX, Flair wore a DX shirt to the ring and added the "suck it" to the end of Trips' speeach. Does that count? Bringthenoise 19:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Found a link to confirm: http://www.wrestleview.com/results/houseshows/houseshows2006/1152429435.shtml Bringthenoise 20:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The Number 69

Does anyone now why DX had "69" on their specialized jerseys they wore?? 71.135.186.207 06:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Check 69 (sex position) and the fact that their catchphrase is "Suck It!". TJ Spyke 05:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

If you seriously didnt know why DX had 69 on their jerseys you are retarded.

DX'ng the building

Should there be some mention of when DX put the logo over the McMahon headquarters in Stamford? Plus as far as i remember when i watched it live the sign was put up backwards....Should this be mentioned?--SteelersFan UK06 17:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

the sign wasnt put up backwards. ive watched it more then once and i watched it when it was live the sign is up the right way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.109.163 (talk) 21:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

In wrestling

Shouldn't we mention their finishers / signature moves on the DX article? Zerorules677 9:24, 05 March 2007 (UTC)

Was the rivalry between HBK and HHH in real life or just storylines?Urena198 21:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It was kayfabe. Shawn and Paul remained best friends throughout the rivalry. Their real life friendship was the basis for the feud. (Sawyer 21:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

Shawn

I just noticed this recent edit, and yeah, I'm all for the point about not adding week-by-week comments, but if Shawn Michaels has messed himelf up and is out of action, then this should be noted on the page. I think. --SteelersFan UK06 17:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted on Shawn's article, not this one. Bmg916^Speak_Sign 17:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No, see IMO that doesn't QUITE make sense, cos they've got the HHH injury up there, so why wouldn't they have Michaels? He seems every bit a part of the tag team as Triple H was. Or is. God, I'm not even going to start the active/inactive debate.... --SteelersFan UK06 04:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Former Members - Stephanie

According to the McMahon-Helmsley Faction article, the Faction started the night after WWE_Armageddon#1999 which means Stephanie began as a member of DX on December 13, 1999. I would put the date for when she left DX as December 12, 2000 (the same as HHH). 24.89.69.22 22:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Questioning the article

Does anybody care that the article is half gone? ThinkBlue (Hit BLUE) 22:38, 04 June 2007 (UTC)

What the hell is going on? I tried to find a suitable revert to put the page to - but their doesn't even seem to be one. Could somebody please fix the page back to the way it was! --SteelersFan UK06 07:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Someone's been doing it to a lot of wrestling-related pages, apparently. There used to be a wealth of information about the likes of Yokozuna and Chris Candido, but both are now just bare-bones articles. Though, it looks like Candido's has been remedied. Th 2005 21:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it needs more sources for reference apart from WWE.com --Mikecraig 22:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Return

Should we include something under 2007 about the possibility of a DX return at Summerslam, as that's when HHH and HBK are expected to return to the ring? (Sawyer 21:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

Actually, its only Triple H who's suppose to return by SummerSlam!!!! Shawn is expected by Survivor Series!!!! ThinkBlue (Hit BLUE) 00:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Either way, those are rumors and speculation. It shouldn't be mentioned at all until they actually return. Nikki311 02:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't Kane a member?

I can recall he was a member for quite a while, teaming with the likes of; Chyna, X-Pac, Road Dogg etc. He even did the "crotch chop" and he was allegedly (kayfabe) Torri's "boyfriend". Yet, everywhere I look I see no mention of him ever being a member of DX. Why? 69.123.139.205 05:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)SixXx69.123.139.205

He was never a member. He was a tag team partner of X-Pac for awhile. He was basically just their ally. Nikki311 05:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Return?

The end of the 2007 article says that the two injuries to Michaels and HHH mean DX has been brought to an end. Does anyone have proof that DX is actually disbanded now? Or is it for the time being?

For the time being!!! ThinkBlue (Hit BLUE) 19:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The Kings

The Run DMC DX theme song was not called "Kings of Rock", it was called "The Kings." Just thought I'd let the peeps know to make that correction. 63.215.27.139 07:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. -- ThinkBlue (Hit BLUE) 16:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The history of Degeneration X

In the history it mentions that they referred to themselves as Degeneration X for the first time on 13th October 97. This is correct however they officially got together as the group on the 20th September 97 at the One Night Only Pay-Per-View in Birmingham, England which was approximately a month before. The DX name was not mentioned then but to back this up you can take a look at the 'WWF One Night Only' article in Wikipedia and it is mentioned there.

So to sum it all up the official beginning of DX was on the 20th September 1997 in Birmingham, England at the 'WWF One Night Only' PPV.

Stephanie?

Was Stephanie ever a member? 81.79.218.215 00:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Yup, during 2000.-- bulletproof ^3:16 00:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

NOT DEAD!

I think that the chops are enough proof to expect a reformation? Any one else hear anything?-Travis —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.129.153.119 (talk) 02:32, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Well its like when Shawn represented DX in the beginning of the year.... so who knows. -- ThinkBlue (Hit BLUE) 23:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a place for speculation. If they reform, than you can write about it in the article.--Crestville 11:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

DX is not dead

because at this years SummerSlam Triple H said are you ready? and then did a few crotch chops during the match with king booker —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atomicguy (talk • contribs) 22:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Shawn Michael's has stated on many occasions since his surgery in May that DX is not coming back anytime soon. And regardless, this page is for discussing how to improve the article, not a place to talk about whether or not they're coming back. (Sawyer 19:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC))

info box

Someone should change the current infobox at the beginning of the article to show that DX is no longer active, and they are not the only members. We should take off their names and heights, and just have names, debut, and former members. Hiphopchamp 12:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

How would that help? Zenlax ^T ^C ^S 21:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah you're right, I mean HHH and HBK were the co-founders of DX anyway. But shouldn't Chyna and Rick Rude be considered co-founders too, since they all had a part in the creation of DX? Hiphopchamp 13:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Shawn and HHH co-founded it, Chyna and Rick were both allowed to be in the first members to join. So no Chyna and Rick would not be counted as co-foundersAladdin Zane 20:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

khali horswaggle and boogeyman

Werrn't they techinal mambers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterman4 (talk • contribs) 22:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

no they were honorary members for one night. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.109.163 (talk) 21:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

New honorary members.

Why were Hornswoggle, Boogeyman and Khali removed? They were recognized by H and Michaels as honorary members during the one-night reunion. -- Kevin Browning 05:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, honorary members, not real members of the actual stable. How many wrestlers have there been that have been loosely associated with DX that aren't even mentioned here? People just think it's vital information because it happened three days ago, but in a year it won't important information at all. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 16:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, he said something along the lines of it being a debacle "just like that Katie Vick thing you (Triple H) did a few years back" If you don't know, or don't remember, Triple H did a pretty idiotic storyline with Kane some years ago about how Kane got a girl (Katie Vick) killed in a car accident and then had sex with her dead body. Triple H would mock this and at one point even had a Kane mask on and proceeded to simulate sex with a mannequin in a coffin. Thus, I interpret this as meaning that Shawn thought that part of the segment and the writing of it was a debacle, not the incarnation of DX itself. Bmg916^Speak 21:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Better to compromise rather than edit war. Bmg916^Speak 23:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

They were not members of DX. A one night thing doesnt count and if it did then Ric Flair is a member. Not to mention everybody else theyve tagged with. Come to mention it they didnt tag with those 3. To say they are members is ignorant and unless a WWE source says they were members its not gonna be in the article.LifeStroke420 19:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with LifeStroke420, listing those three as members is ridiculous, as they didn't do ANYTHING at all to be considered true members, they were peripheral members at best. Of course, if WWE confirms they were members, then they will be in the article, but until then, they should not be listed as members. Hiphopchamp 13:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

We'd also have to consider John Cena a member, as well as Flair as he tagged with them on one occasion and even did the DX chop/pyro routine in the ring with them. Bmg916^Speak 20:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

And everyone who was part of Team DX at Survivor Series. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

And Kane. Nikki311 20:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Tyson was part of DX for nearly a month. There's a bit of a difference between being in a stable for a month, and being declared a member for a one-off joke segment. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:15, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)He was a member, he wore the shirt, had the entrance music, and everything. Just because it turned out he was pretending to be on their side and turned his back on the group only weeks after joining (according to the storyline written for him) doesn't mean he was never a member. Bmg916^Speak 20:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Link provided to wwe.com acknowledging khali, boogeyman, and hornswaggle as honorary members, so it stays unless it can be disproved by a valid citation.Froggybottomboys (talk) 20:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The First Incarnation

I think we should also let it be known that the first incarnation of DX was a heel stable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.153.61 (talk) 02:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure its stated in the beginning of the article. Zenlax ^T ^C ^S 20:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)