Talk:Danielle Bunten Berry/Archive 1

He vs. She

I'm concerned about the pronoun edits by Morwen. Bunten was a man until he had sexual reassignment surgery. The pronouns used reflect this. The article used "he" when Bunten was a man and then changed to "she" after the reassignment. Morwen changed all the pronouns to "she" which I think just may confuse the reader. This is the only time I've had to write about someone who had such a reassignment, so I'd appreciate any input. I vote we revert the changes back to my last edit, which has the gneder-specific use of pronouns. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:32, Jun 22, 2004 (UTC)

I would say either the way it was or S(he) which looks awful, or some of the other neutral ones like hir etc... My personal preference, he before, she after. Markalex 14:35, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It reads much better listing Bunten as 'he' in the pre-surgery era, and 'she' in the post-surgery era. Otherwise it seems to imply that Bunten was a female while working on games int he 80's. I changed it back to 'he' up until the surgery info. 204.112.159.180 17:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Mine too. Awaiting more input. But I want to get this sqaured away before someone comes along and makes a significant change to the article. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:43, Jun 22, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, that would be quite inappropriate and in the general case mildly offensive (though I accept not intentionally). Basically, the problems are, in decreasing order of obviousness

• genital surgery doesn't matter two heaps of beans what pronouns you call someone. people have to transition well before they are allowed to get genital surgery, and it is not helpful to refer to pre-ops with the wrong pronouns
• the whole point of gender identity disorder as a diagnosis is to reject the notion that the person 'used to be a man' or whatever. Berry was always a woman, just a woman with a rather unfortunate deformity.

Now, I've looked into this and it seems Berry may have been cool with this personally. But generally, it's very uncool to use the wrong pronouns without asking. I certainly am distinctly unimpressed when people do it to me. Its only slightly better than using wrong pronouns or name in the present tense. Morwen - Talk 23:59, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It sounds like you have the viewpoint of someone sufferring from gender identity disorder. But most of our readers won't. I just want to make the article clear to them. When we start talking about a man, but then start referring to him as she, people are going to get confused. I still prefer to refer to Bunten as "he" until he underwent surgery and then refer to Bunten as "she." No offense intended. I don't think many readers will take offense either. Just MHO. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:59, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)

I could accept before she transitioned as 'he', but I must be clear that surgery cannot be the dividing point, it must be transitioning. This is non-negotiable. Morwen - Talk 16:02, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Note that this is only a technical difference, and would make no change to the actual wording, since the article didn't deal with this. Morwen - Talk 16:27, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad we could come to an agreement on this. The only instance I can find in regard to the transitioning I'll leave as is ("After her second marriage failed, Bunten transitioned to living as a woman..."). I'll also make some touch-ups to game titles that I see are out of whack (should be Axis and Allies not Axis and Allies). — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:31, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)

I tweaked a few pronouns before seeing this discussion, but I was following the same rule so hopefully I got the right ones. Stan 22:23, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's a tricky subject, but it depends on what you think a gender pronoun refers to. Does it refer to the person's physical attributes, or does it refer to their internal feelings on the matter? If it's the former, it'd be appropriate to switch from He to She, but if it's the latter then you might want to just refer to whatever gender the person eventually accepted themselves as. It's a bit like sexualities: a gay person is usually always gay whether they once tried to live in a straight relationship or not, they don't suddenly become gay when they enter a relationship with a person of the same gender, they accept that they're gay and that (usually) they always have been gay even before they were consciously aware of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.146.55.217 (talk • contribs) 15:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC).

I've just made some changes to the pronouns, but having just read this talk page, it sounds like this ground has been covered before. However, with this being 2 years on from the first debate, I'm hoping attitudes may have progressed a bit! As the above comment notes, gender identity (or brain sex) is not very fluid for most people, even while recognition and understanding may only come slowly. If Bunten was a transsexual woman, then the statement that "Bunten was a man until he had sexual reassignment surgery" is simply not true. The only thing that sexual reassignment surgery changes is a person's genitalia. Varying the pronouns across the article only draws constant and unnecessary attention to her transsexuality. Reiko-j 20:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with Reiko-j here, for a number of reasons... none of the transsexual women I know would appreciate being referred to as "used to be a man" or being talked about with male gender pronouns from before they transitioned/had surgery, and if you wish to base pronouns on a person's genitalia at the time, what do you do about ambiguously genitaled intersexed people? I'm sure noone would advocate using "it" as a pronoun for such people before their corrective surgery. And yes, switching between pronouns mid-article apart from the first set being quite possibly disrespectful to the unfortunately deceased subject of the article is confusing to the reader - the article on Sophie Wilson for example consistently refers to her using female pronouns throughout, and doesn't suffer for it (although it does have the slightly confusing quirk of stating "formerly <male name>" at the top and then not explaining that she's a transsexual woman) Xmoogle 21:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a question of accuracy, not a question of what someone would appreciate. Bunten is what we would classify as a man while developing those games. It seems to imply he already had surgery when you talk about Bunten as 'she', but in reality the surgery was in 1992. 204.112.159.180 17:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's appropriate to use "she" throughout the article, as that was Berry's gender at the time of her death. It makes sense to use a person's current gender throughout an article, just as we use their current state of being ("is" while alive, "was" after death) or current (or most well-known) name throughout an article. For example, if a women marries and changes her name, we wouldn't use her maiden name describing her life before her marriage, and then switch to her married name -- we'd use one name throughout. I think it's confusing to readers to start the article using "he", especially since the article's title uses Berry's female name. Applegamer 18:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I was originally of the same mindset as204.112.159.180, but after hearing from a few people who've had sexual reassignment, it seems the prevailing preference is to refer to Berry strictly as female throughout the entire article. The he/she change doesn't bother me, but it actually offends a lot of transexuals. So, I vote to use the "she" pronoun throughout. — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the original post but it's simply a battle of who feels the strongest and will keep their fingers on the revert button. - Diceman 15:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, to make matters worse, Bunten regretted having sexual reassignment, so probably identified as male even after the surgery. So, in that light, it would seem more appropriate to refer to her/him as male throughout, but especially before the surgery. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 14:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

This is from the Associated Press Stylebook as of march 2006

transgender - Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics of the opposite sex or present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth.

If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly.

Lets make a cloan then and see what gender it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.45.11.56 (talk) 05:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

(While I'm pretty sure your comment wasn't all that serious) that wouldn't really be all that helpful, hypothetically. There are many proposed theories for the cause of transsexualism, not all of which involve genetics. Many proposed theories state that abnormal hormone levels in the womb are part or all of the cause, and if that is true, a clone of a transsexual woman would likely turn out male unless by chance similar hormonal conditions occured during the development of that fetus, which would only be a copy of the genetics of a person. That, and given all the fuss over human cloning, I doubt "encyclopedic research" would count as a valid reason for such an experiment :) Xmoogle (talk) 08:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe that this would state that she would be appropriate, as that was her preferred pronoun. Her kids called her mom after all. I think that changes should be made to reflect this. also - having regrets does not change how a person presents themselves, and unless she stated otherwise, she never said she didn't want to be a woman. Her statement said that she had regrets about not having other options. Thanks --Genopunk 02:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

He has made it clear that he believes that he, though male, would preferred to be called 'she'. Therefore though he be physically male, there is little reason for him to be referred to in his wiki page as 'he' as he has clearly made it clear that he does not wish for him to be so titled in this manner. There is no reason for his family to be frustrated by attempts to change his entry in wiki and he himself would probably prefer that it not be so altered. If he was still alive I am sure he would request in this discussion that his page remain unaltered. Sad that he is not around. His games were great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.96.238 (talk) 10:21, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

So you make a whole big long paragraph going on about how she didn't want to be called "he", yet you refer to her as "he, him, his" throughout your entire paragraph... I just have to ask, what the hell? Xmoogle (talk) 15:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Y'all are ridiculous for not respecting the gender of some one who isn't alive to defend herself. Seriously, what harm does it do you to treat her with dignity? How does that hurt you? There are too many bigots on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.39.170 (talk) 01:00, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

He was born a male, lived as a male, died as a male. Nothing can change that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.43.128.102 (talk) 20:03, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

The Wikipedia:Manual of Style now states that the identity of a person should reflect the latest expressed gender self-identification, which in Dani's case was female. I changed the one remaining "he" to "she". Mimir (talk) 05:11, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

cutting off your penis doesn't make you a woman. the article at first made me believe bunten was ACTUALLY a woman, which would have been extraordinary for a video game designer of that time. hence the use of "she" is extremely misleading. FIX IT

For most transgender people, I agree with the Manual of Style. That is, refer to them as their preferred gender. But everything I've read about Bunten states that s/he regretted the gender change, but it was impossible (of course) to go back. I don't think being a woman was preferable to her/him, he was just stuck with it after the change. I think an exception should be made for Bunten and ones like him. Just my $.02... — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 16:00, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Possibly opening a can of worms here but as a trans woman I wanted to offer my point of view that from what Bunten wrote about her transition, she wasn't unhappy with it. She wanted to be more feminine, but she regretted the SRS procedure, which has nothing to do with gender transition. Being a woman has nothing to do with one's genitalia and at no point she regretted being a woman (I quote: ""Being my 'real self' could have included having a penis and including more femininity in whatever forms made sense."), she only regretted her surgery, which is a completely optional step in transition. -201.6.225.182 (talk) 03:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Could someone please point me to the list of Wikipedia users who were granted the special privilege (see example above) of being entitled to impose non-negotiables upon the Wikipedia community? In the case at hand, this seems particularly amusing since there are well-documented interviews in which Dani Bunten referred to her former self as "he". Let's say Wikipedia decided to include a citation from such an interview in an article. Should the citation be "corrected", for, according to the non-negotiable doctrine, certainly Dani cannot have meant what she said, no matter what perfect sense her words may make? --217.226.76.155 (talk) 15:09, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Other than perhaps the Wikipedia:Five pillars and anything enforced by the Wikimedia Foundation, there's probably nothing that is non-negotiable on wikipedia.

However this particular issue is a hotbutton on where after long discussion, there exists global consensus of sorts, as expressed in MOS:IDENTITY. It cannot be overriden by local consensus but instead only by establishing clear global consensus for a general change (i.e. not in specific reference to any person).

While the guidelines do require we use the latest preferred pronoun thoroughout the article in normal cases, they do also allow different usages for different parts of life if the subject prefers(ed) that. But you'd need to provide some evidence for the claim. (I'm not sure whether evidence the subject once used the pronoun to refer to an earlier stage of their life is normally considered enough since it doesn't always indicate a preference. Actually, this discussion and article demonstrates why we should be careful about making assumptions such as with the claim above that the Berry's apparent regrets over the sex change operation as an indication they did would have preferred not to identify as female, when it's easily possible this was not the case. But I'm not that familiar with how this is handled so you should probably ask at the WT:MOS or otherwise use some form of WP:Dispute Resolution if people disagree on whether your evidence ist strong enough.)

BTW, as mentioned in that page, and in the header of this page, direct quotations and titles will be preserved where the pronoun is needed, whatever pronoun is used in the rest.

Anyway, if you disagree with any specific parts of the guidelines, as I've said, they aren't non negotiable. They can be changed by discussion in the appropriate places for the guideline (i.e. not here), e.g. WT:MOS. However you should familiarise yourself with previous discussions, particularly in a case as contentious as this. (In this case, I'd start with Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 148 although there's a lot more in other archives.)

If you really have something new to add to the discussion, you can start a new one in an attempt to reach consensus to change the guideline. (If you have nothing new to add, considering the last major discussion was held relatively recently, I suspect it's likely to be seen as pointless attempting to gauging consensus yet again.)

Nil Einne (talk) 13:57, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Actual name after transformation

Most often she is referred to as Dani Bunten or Danielle Bunten Berry, while some people who knew her in person use Danielle Berry or Danielle Paula Berry. The question is obvious...what was her real and/or official name after she stopped being Daniel Bunten? --Klaws 18:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Due to family issues Dani decided to change her last name to "Berry" which was our grandmother's (from our father's side) maiden name (I am one of Dan/Dani's younger brothers). Prior to reassignment surgery Dani's full name was Daniel Paul Bunten which gives you much of where the various versions of Dani's name came from. Stbunten 04:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)Steve Bunten

Interestingly I recently found out that our grandmother's maiden name was Barry instead of Berry! This according to her death certificate. Why we all were under the mistaken belief her name was spelled with an "E" instead of "A" I do not know. Stbunten 00:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

{{fact}}

From the article:

She was working on an Internet version of M.U.L.E. when she died.

I have a source for it, from Berry's own mouth. It is from an interview from the book Halcyon Days, which is available online. It is the first source in the References section. I'd point to it, replacing the {{fact}} template, but I don't know how to. From what I know of wikimarkup (which is a lot), I don't know how to link to a <ref>'ed source more than once. If someone does know how to do it, please do so. Thanks! — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks--I added the "fact" tag. I worked with Dani just before she died. She did talk about wanting to remake M.U.L.E. as the next project after ours (the remake of Modem Wars), and I read her first-draft treatment of the project (called Planeteers), but I don't that that any work beyond that treatment was underway. If Halcyon Days has specifics about it beyond "I'd like to do..." or "I'm working on an idea for..." , I'll be satisfied. Tlesher 14:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Rap Sheet->Profile

I reverted one of the otherwise-good "copyedits", the change from "rap sheet" to profile. The site in question, MobyGames, uses the specific term "rap sheet" for profiles of individuals, games, and game companies. Tlesher 14:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, MobyGames used to use that term. Now they just say "Developer BIO." I just used "profile" as a synonym. Since they don't use "rap sheet" anymore, I removed the term so it makes more sense when a user jumps to the page via the link. I'll change it back to "profile." — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Got it--I wasn't aware of the change. Thanks! Tlesher 20:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

POV revert of legit change to M.U.L.E. sales info.

Well, somebody decided to revert my little change that gets rid of the implication that M.U.L.E. was a commercial success. I should not have to waste time here explaining such an obvious change, but since the person who reverted asked me to do so, I suppose I will. First of all, let me say that M.U.L.E. was a great game that was light years ahead of its time and probably influenced more game designers than any computer game since Spacewar! and Adventure. Berry was also a genius, and her games are some of the most innovative in history. I just want to get that out there so no one thinks I am engaging in some POV Berry bashing on anything silly like that. Now, lets get into some figures Mystery House from Sierra was released way back in 1980, and it ultimately sold 80,000 copies. When EA debuted its initial lineup in 1983, three of the games were identified as bestsellers: Hard Hat Mack, Pinball Construction Set (300,000 copies), and Archon. Now this is in Trip Hawkins own words, mind you, as relayed in the book The Ultimate History of Video Games. M.U.L.E. was not considered a bestseller by Hawkins, nor by the authors of High Score!, who when referring to the game talk about it "only" selling 30,000 units. To put this in better perspective, Berry created Seven Cities of Gold the very next year, which sold 150,000 units. Clearly, EA games that were purchased by the general public were capable of pulling in huge sales. Another game to come out in 1984 was a little Sierra product called King's Quest which ultimately sold 2.7 million copies according to the Dot Eaters. The Dot Eaters webpage also mentions M.U.L.E. and also refers to the game selling "only" 30,000 copies and talks of a "relative lack of sales." Now that site does point to the large amount of pirating that went on, which is a perfectly legitimate point that this article also points out. However, the exact amount of pirating cannot be discerned and is immaterial when focusing on commercial success anyway. When 1up.com decided to determine the 50 most important games of all time in "The Essentials," they gave M.U.L.E. a spot for its importance, but had the following to say: "Given that M.U.L.E. only sold about 30,000 copies across three platforms it seems that it was just too odd for its own good." In Brian Moriarty's introduction to Berry's lifetime achievement award for the Computer Game Developers Association, he stated that "Although the original version sold only 30,000 copies, M.U.L.E. developed a base of passionate fans that remains active even today." Notice that even in the ceremony honoring Berry's achievements, which will obviously put her career in the most favorable possible light, the presenter still refers to the small number of sales of the game. Finally, I leave you with Berry's own words in a 1996 interview with Newsweekly: "[M.U.L.E.] was just phenomenally successful but not very often sold." I hope this conclusively puts to rest the idea that 30,000 copies was a high number by 1983 standards, and I trust that this will not come up again. Indrian 06:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, that certainly settles it for me! But, you refer to a number of sources here in your explanation, could you please, please add them to the article as well as references? That would settle it for anyone else who comes along and thinks we are giving M.U.L.E. the short shrift. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

SEGA M.U.L.E. ALTERATIONS

As a point of trivia, it would be interesting to find out if her reassignment surgery occured before or after the refusal to put guns and bombs in the SEGA port. She chose not to include those additions because they would have altered the game beyond it's original concept. The notion of refusal to alter the original concept seemed to stand in contrast to the alterations she had done (or was going to do) to her original self.

-I believe it came before the actual surgery (but during consultations) as I dimly recall an anecdote about her telling a friend who asked how it went that "they wanted to put guns and bombs in there" - where she was referring to the alterations to MULE, but the friend was thinking of surgery... http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/feature/2003/03/18/bunten/index.html?pn=3

Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see any interesting link between refusal to change the concept and function of a piece of software, and getting treated for a medical condition...yes, you could claim irony, but probably wouldn't be doing the same if it had been surgery to say, repair her heart...Xmoogle 18:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Now, now, don't feed the trolls. Indrian 18:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Dan (I am refering to who he was when he developed the games) was a complicated man who was both a pacifist (he opted for concientious objector status and did alternative service instead of being drafted into the Vietnam War) but who loved playing war games--he generally beat me in games like Gettysburg! Although Dan certainly created war games M.U.L.E. was created specifically without war or fighting being part of it. And he did not want to change the nature of the game so when the offer came for the port but required guns and bombs, the answer was no and would have been that way pre- or post-operation. That is just the way Dan/Dani was. Stbunten 04:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)Steve Bunten

Regrets about SRS?

The transsexual article notes Danielle as regretting her transition as per this ref

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html

which also indicates (by quoting her directly) that this is due to her identifying as an autogynephile. Is this something that ought to be in the article as it is mentioned elsewhere and anyone coming here for more info finds nothing? Leonurus 16:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It looks totally appropriate to include in the article, as long as the article can be verified (that is, it isn't something someone just made up). I'd say go ahead and add it. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I found the out-of-context quote to badly misrepresent the nuance of what she actually wrote in the cited post. I hope my improvement, based on that post, is acceptable.4.53.129.190 (talk) 23:26, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Cleaning up some ugly

Under the BIOGRAPHY section, some had the line:

SHE IS THE DAUGHTER OF SIMON COWELL AND PAULA ABDUL....the current hosts of pussycat doolls. She now works as a wiatress and singer at a night club (the same one mary jane of spider man works at).

I've removed it, as it's clearly vandalism.

Also, under the QUOTE section, some wrote:

"No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had spent more time alone with my computer.'"

I've removed that, too, as there's no citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MagsTheAxe (talk • contribs)

It would have been easier to go to the history, look at all the edits from the vandalizer's IP and undo them. The quote is listed many place on the Internet. No need to remove, just add a {{fact}} or {{cn}} tag unless it is clearly vandalism.

Next time, please sign your post (~~~~). — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Dan if fact did have the quote "No one on their death bed says 'I wish I'd spent more time with my computer!'" It was on his webpage prior to his death. He said that he used it in a keynote address (didn't say for what conference though) as you can see at http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/personal/biz/interview.htm. I am Dan's younger brother Steve. Stbunten (talk) 02:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Wheeler Dealer sales and price?

A piece written by Dan(ielle) in the April 1984 Computer Gaming World (available here) states Wheeler Dealers sold 150 copies at $54 each, as opposed to the 50/$35 currently cited. I'm more inclined to go with the older interview unless there happens to be a tiebreaker source? Nifboy 08:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You can always say "some sources say" and use both. — Frecklefoot | Talk 13:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

More time alone quote

I've sourced Dani's most famous quote from an archive of her personal home page. Tlesher 03:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Chain smoking

I don't have any non-OR source for this, but I removed the line "A chain smoker since a teen" and replaced it with verbiage that acknowledges her years of heavy smoking and provides a reference, but doesn't imply that she was a chain-smoker late in life. When I worked (and smoked) with Dani in 1997, she would proudly show the small cigarette case that held her "ration" for the day (4, if memory serves). Tlesher (talk) 17:53, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

That seems to be the most appropriate action. According to Dani's website, she called herself "non-smoker".

Fred-J 01:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

By the end of Dan's life he had stopped smoking when the lung cancer was found. He didn't start smoking until he was out of High School and it might not have been until he was 20 years old. I remember that a girlfriend he had while at the U of A in Fayetteville--I believe she's the same one who helped turn Dan from being a part of the school's ROTC program to joining the Students for a Democratic Society (although he dropped from that shortly thereafter). I don't know if Dan was ever a chain smoker but he was clearly a heavy smoker during much of his adult life. Stbunten (talk) 02:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)