Talk:Death of Victoria Martens

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Requested move 2 August 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Death of - consensus is almost unanimously for this modification DrStrauss talk 17:46, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Murder of Victoria Martens → Homicide of Victoria Martens – The autopsy result concludes that the manner of death was homicide, which refers to the intentional killing of a human being by another, consistent with the cause of death being manual strangulation. Three people are facing separate trials in relation to the death, and these will not occur until October to December 2017 at the earliest. Murder is a type of homicide, specifically an unlawful homicide. I don't doubt that this was a murder, and a gruesome one, but the finding that this homicide was a murder requires (as I understand it) a legal finding which has yet to be made by a court (criminal or coronial) that there was the necessary mens rea. There is a distinction between finding that Martens was murdered and the conviction that declares who perpetrated the murder, and for BLP reasons WP cannot draw conclusions of guilt without a conviction. For the same reason, I suggest we might be wise to describe the death as a "homicide" rather than a "murder" until the trials are over. In the alternative, a title of "Death of Victoria Martens" might be appropriate. EdChem (talk) 23:36, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this even an article? there is no evidence that after the trials anyone will ever mention this tabloid story again? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.15.255.227 (talk) 18:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome to nominate for WP:AfD, but I think the degree of media coverage, not just in "tabloids", would mean such a nomination would be unlikely to succeed. For example, here's a report in UK's broadsheet newspaper The Guardian: [1]. It's inappropriate to guess about the future, of course, but I think the three separate forthcoming trials of the accused are very likely to generate even more publicity about the case, and probably on a global scale (and even though the death penalty was abolished in New Mexico in 2009). Martinevans123 (talk) 21:23, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Death of Victoria Martens per nom. Yoninah (talk) 21:13, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Murder of Victoria Martens, the current title, as being accurate, concise, not culturally or legally over specific, and having wording found in many other article titles. The nominator's arguments for Homicide of.... seem invalid. We can still say a person was murdered without there being a legal decision assigning blame for the murder to specific persons or placing the murder into a particular legal category. No reasons have been presented to support Death of Victoria Martens. Just repeating "Support per non" is not a reason. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:36, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Per nom", in my interpretation, refers to the comments by the nominator that murder is a specific crime which no one has been convicted of in this case, as illustrated by the fact that the autopsy report does not use that word. It also refers to the comment that murder specifically involves establishment of mens rea, which is not established in this case. Murder is a specific crime that includes elements that are not established for this case (including a state of mind, in particular). —BarrelProof (talk) 21:47, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have adjusted my reason for support, for clarity. But no, we can't just say "a person was murdered without there being a legal decision assigning blame for the murder". As with very many crimes, murder is a legal outcome. But hey, maybe things are different in the USA? Or maybe just in New Mexico? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:55, 3 August 2017 (UTC) p.s. of course, one has or admit that, even when there is a conviction for murder, it doesn't necessarily mean the conviction is safe, as with Michael Stone (English murderer). Even if everyone can agree that a murder took place, to then label one person as "the murderer" may be legally correct, but later shown to be doubtful. In this case, we have three possible murderers, so the possibility for uncertainty seems to be increased even further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martinevans123 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. The act of murder exists outwith the existence of legal decisions or even the existence of a legal system to make such decisions. A legal decision simply assigns legal blame for the murder and allows for the perpetrator(s) to be punished within that legal system. Also, as I read it, the nom's comments you are supporting was made for their "Homicide of" proposal, not "Death off". That is why I was objecting to just saying "per nom" as a reason to support "Death of". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:28, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Exists theoretically, of course. But in practical terms how does one establish "mens rea" without the examination of an accused party? Doesn't this project require reliable sources? Martinevans123 (talk) 06:31, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Better name for this article[edit]

How about Victoria Martens murder case? It's not like the killing is unsolved, or ever has been; there are several people who have been arrested and charged, including with murder. So while we can't yet right "Murder of Victoria Martens", we can acknowledge the pendency of the case. Daniel Case (talk) 03:59, 6 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please see above. The original name of this article was Murder of Victoria Martens and a consensus to change the name of the article to Death of Victoria Martens was supported. There is no issue with the current title. Also, "Victoria Martens murder case" does not follow the standard titling of Wikipedia articles related to death and murder, such as Death of Caylee Anthony or Murder of Charles Blankenship. WereWolf (talk) 13:30, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@WereWolf: Just because that's the standard titling does not mean it's the way, the truth and the light. Consensus can change. That has never been set in stone. Changing "death" to "homicide" is accurate, in fact more accurate, without doing the damage to BLP, NPOV and OR that "murder" does prior to a conviction.

Nor do either of your two examples make sense in context. Death of Caylee Anthony is so titled because her cause of death could not be established by the state, a large part of why her mother was acquitted of murder. In the other case, someone was convicted of the murder charge and served a prison sentence. Daniel Case (talk) 20:08, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever. If you want to suggest another article name and request another move for the title go ahead. WereWolf (talk) 20:26, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Intentionally lied"[edit]

"Intentionally lied" is a strange expression. A lie is intentional by definition, or it isn't a lie (see wikt:lie#Etymology 2), it's an error or an inaccuracy. I will put it in parentheses, so it's clear that it's a quote.

HandsomeFella (talk) 10:24, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Date of death?[edit]

The article lede says "Victoria Martens (August 23, 2006 – August 24, 2016)" and the date in the infobox is "August 24, 2016"; however, the article body and the newspaper source cited says that Victoria Martens died "between 7:45 and 8:30 p.m. on August 23, her 10th birthday". Can anyone clarify? Test piggy (talk) 02:10, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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